Seems impossible to defeat the Mind

[Javfly33]

9 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

At the end of the day shifts in states are temporary whether magical, blissful and mystical. Pleasure and pain exist as the same dynamic.

Don't get too hang up on the experiences and go after the truth. 

That's a wildcard you guys love to throw around here in the moment it is told to you a hard truth you want to accept, there are states that some people as me are getting into regularly and are above suffering. Not sure if is envy, which is nonsense, because I don't have anything special that you do not have, we are the same intelligence/consciousness, you absolutely have the same power to get there if you learn the skill to activate yourself.

But playing the wildcard of dismissing it as "hey! Is not truth! Keep looking!" Is a game you are playing. Notice this. I'll wait for you when you want to join the actual work.

10 hours ago, Yimpa said:

Now let’s work on challenging that assumption. No need to accept your mind working as shit. But no need to run away from it either.

It seems personal because there is a strong meaning you associate with being shit. 

As I said, I expect more from you guys than this typical responses. 

Is time for a change of consciousness. You guys are stuck in the same cycle of contentment.

Meanwhile, whatever your ego wants to think does not change how reality work.

To each their own. 

But I'll tell you this:

Clock is ticking. Are you going to join me in reclaiming our power as consciousness over our energies and mind, or are you going to seek solaces in this narratives and avoidance mind mechanisms, but not really taking power? 

10 hours ago, hyruga said:

@Javfly33 I have seen your posts and you are definitely someone who can write  well. Furthermore, you also have written good stuff on mindset and consciousness. 

Not sure why you suddenly start this thread? Maybe you are feeling vulnerable (who won't be one fine day?) or you are seeking even greater knowledge.

A tip or two I can share is to read ego is the enemy.

I try to be as honest as possible. I visit mystic states and terrible emotional states in the same week. I deal with a heavy karma/trauma that I don't still be able to completely destroy. So there is work to do. 

[Javfly33]

I think I've said other times that when I say the WORDS bliss or pleasure or silence are WORDS, I'm not talking about mental or physical pleasure, I'm not talking about mental or physical bliss.

I'm talking about a certain state of consciousness. Consciousness can be in a wide range of different states, as our beloved forum Leader said in the past. 

Caring about truth is fine. But try to care about truth in a miserable state. See if is of any value Truth when you are anxious or fearful or live stressed. That will let you see that State of Consciousness is how you measure the profoundity and importance of life. That will let you see what is important for you: Experience of Life. How you are experiencing this very moment.

A State of consciousness above suffering = Consciousness outside the mind. It doesn't matter how many more are from there. The important thing is to get there.

From there I can negotiate that there can still be different ways for Consciousness to experience itself. For example, i can imagine that if you disgange from the physical body for too long, you will die (aka, abandoning the body, mahasamadhi). So, of course, is not white or black. But first, get to 'first base'

First base is to be able to disangage from that which bounds you. Dismissing that as pleasure seeking is completely losing the point. You are not getting the seriousness and importance of you as consciousness being able to distance yourself from mind, emotion and energetic entanglement. This is the primordial work. 

Only from there mysticism and comfortable exploration of this creation starts. 

 

Edited November 10, 2023 by Javfly33

[Breakingthewall]

It happens to me that I have become a little addicted to expanded states. If I am in contracted states I feel that something is missing, so I look for the expanded states by meditating but it doesn't always work, then I ve to  resist the temptation to do psychedelics too habitually, but it seems to me that the closed state is that...closed, limited. It's a bit like wishing you were dead to fully expand your mind, but you have to live, be successful at work, build solid relationships with authentic people, and at the same time seek those expanded states in the most effective way possible, understanding how you limit yourself and how to break that limitation.

It is something that you learn every minute of your life once you see clearly how your reality is configured for you. At the same time, you have to synchronize yourself with the events of your life, know how to see how to surf the wave at the same time that you let yourself be carried away by it. Let's say that it is learning to live as you want, and that includes real mysticism as a main faccet. No one is going to explain to you how because almost no one has ever played this game in a serious and in-depth way. you have to hone your intuition

[Razard86]

13 hours ago, Javfly33 said:

I appreciate your help brother. But I don't realize it still. 

I have watched the video of Leo of the guided exercise, it was powerful but I do not have clarity most of my daily life, with the exception sometimes when I do spiritual practices. 

thanks for the motivation, I hope it gets better and more stable 

thats a good one

 

Okay well clarity I can help you with. I've made a post on Self-Honesty before. But now I have a question for you. Why are you doing Spirituality? You don't need to answer here if you are not comfortable because this isn't about any of us. You really need to dive deep and discover why you are doing Spirituality. Is it to find inner peace? Most people do it for that reason. If all you want is inner peace I can help you with that but ultimately you will have to discover it as I can only be a guide. There is also a long way and a direct way but the long way maybe be better for you and most people.

Both paths will involve much pain and suffering, sadly my friend pain and suffering are an essential tool of the path. I'll give you an example, think of your attachments like a stove, now the stove is becoming hot but you don't want to let it go, so it burns you and burns you until you finally let it go. Then the stove disintegrates into nothing and you mourn the loss of it. 

^^^^This is the path whether you take the longer version or the shorter version. I have realized for many of you the longer version is probably more beneficial. I'm in my 30's, I cannot imagine trying to wake up in your 20's. For me that would have not been beneficial for me, because I was so attached to meaning and purpose, so ambitious. You need to understand that this path is counter to ambition, counter to meaning.

You are destroying all meaning, this WILL create deep suffering the more attached/personalized your story of your life is. This is why in my opinion you need to be satisfied with the life you have lived before you come to awaken. Any beliefs of I am missing out on other things etc, is going to stop you. You cannot awaken by force, this is the path of surrender. Also understand in my journey I didn't only listen to Leo, I had many people who came into my life and helped me along the path. 

Now understand that creating bliss is actually not hard, but it is counter intuitive. I discovered how to create bliss and I can share it with you in a private message but your masculine mind is not going to like it. In fact the biggest barrier to this process is your desire to be sane, pragmatic, and logical. Which is funny because that is the same mindset that causes wars, and all the other crap humans do. Anyway if you message me I will tell you how I discovered how to create bliss, but a warning...it will seem airy fairy, naive, child-like, romantic rubbish, and this is the very reason most men will never discover a deep connection within themselves or in their relationships. In fact its the demonization of this that prevents intimacy because the most intimate nature is our child like nature. 

[Sincerity]

@Javfly33 You have to learn to fall in love with the ordinary. Treat this as a big part of this work. Maybe then You'll turn the "ordinary work" into an extraordinary, worthwhile pursuit.

It's not always mystical, exciting, etc... and if You only love it when it's mystical then your love is weak.

I like to see Reality as a woman. If You only love Her when She's mystical and then when that's gone You're frustrated with Her, then You're being a mega asshole. You're being a bad partner so to say, a bad appreciator of Reality. Which I understand, really.

Actually I've been going through something similar recently since I'm taking a longer (1-2 year) break from psychedelics (I made a promise to someone). The thoughts of not having access to LSD kind of states and consciousness scared me before, thoughts of being "locked" in the ordinary. I do experience sober awakenings but they didn't feel enough - mystical, divine, extraordinary enough... But it's something You can accept. You can learn to love "normality" and the everyday small lessons which are always there. And it grows your character a lot.

With enough love You can accept Her for what She is, right now. Be a "good partner". Maybe She'll even thank You for it.  Because to Her, not even the smallest gesture of appreciation goes unnoticed, and You reap what You sow.

Edited November 10, 2023 by Sincerity

[UnbornTao]

4 hours ago, Javfly33 said:

That's a wildcard you guys love to throw around here in the moment it is told to you a hard truth you want to accept, there are states that some people as me are getting into regularly and are above suffering. Not sure if is envy, which is nonsense, because I don't have anything special that you do not have, we are the same intelligence/consciousness, you absolutely have the same power to get there if you learn the skill to activate yourself.

But playing the wildcard of dismissing it as "hey! Is not truth! Keep looking!" Is a game you are playing. Notice this. I'll wait for you when you want to join the actual work.

Depends on what you're after. You'll go through states, that doesn't mean much unless you make it a big deal. I like being blissful and feeling good but states don't imply you're increasing consciousness. Are you for example any clearer on what state itself is? What insight or direct consciousness have you had? This is what I think is primordial.

3 hours ago, Javfly33 said:

I think I've said other times that when I say the WORDS bliss or pleasure or silence are WORDS, I'm not talking about mental or physical pleasure, I'm not talking about mental or physical bliss.

I'm talking about a certain state of consciousness. Consciousness can be in a wide range of different states, as our beloved forum Leader said in the past. 

Caring about truth is fine. But try to care about truth in a miserable state. See if is of any value Truth when you are anxious or fearful or live stressed. That will let you see that State of Consciousness is how you measure the profoundity and importance of life. That will let you see what is important for you: Experience of Life. How you are experiencing this very moment.

A State of consciousness above suffering = Consciousness outside the mind. It doesn't matter how many more are from there. The important thing is to get there.

That's a laudable goal. Also, on the other hand, what is consciousness? What are mind and suffering? Before transcending anything we must first become deeply conscious of what that something is, otherwise we don't know what we're getting free from.

Quote

From there I can negotiate that there can still be different ways for Consciousness to experience itself. For example, i can imagine that if you disgange from the physical body for too long, you will die (aka, abandoning the body, mahasamadhi). So, of course, is not white or black. But first, get to 'first base'

First base is to be able to disangage from that which bounds you. Dismissing that as pleasure seeking is completely losing the point. You are not getting the seriousness and importance of you as consciousness being able to distance yourself from mind, emotion and energetic entanglement. This is the primordial work. 

Only from there mysticism and comfortable exploration of this creation starts. 

I recommend to avoid taking anyone's words at face value, rather take an effective teacher's words as a way to ballpark your efforts. It sounds like you might be talking about what may better be called psychic phenomena. Self-survival and truth-seeking are different pursuits. In other words, what's true doesn't care about you.

I agree that how you experience life is significant and that it is a very worthwhile study besides awakening, however those are different and it is useful not to confuse them.

You can always ask: What is this experience about? Even: What are experience and perception themselves?

Edited November 10, 2023 by UnbornTao

[Javfly33]

1 hour ago, UnbornTao said:

Depends on what you're after. You'll go through states, that doesn't mean much unless you make it a big deal. I like being blissful and feeling good but states don't imply you're increasing consciousness. Are you for example any clearer on what state itself is? What insight or direct consciousness have you had? This is what I think is primordial.

That's a laudable goal. Also, on the other hand, what is consciousness? What are mind and suffering? Before transcending anything we must first become deeply conscious of what that something is, otherwise we don't know what we're getting free from.

Don't take anyone's words on faith but as perhaps a way to ballpark your efforts. It sounds like you might be talking about what may better be called psychic phenomena. Self-survival and truth-seeking are different pursuits. In other words, what's true doesn't care about you.

I agree that how you experience life is significant and that it is a very worthwhile study besides awakening, however those are different and it is useful not to confuse them.

You can always ask: What is this experience about? Even: What are experience and perception themselves?

You reply is like a reply of chatgpt + Leo famous phrases as 'truth doesn't care about you' or 'become deeply conscious of X'.

I´m sorry if that is too straight forward but I think you need honesty. You are wasting your time precious time with la la land solace narratives and it seems to me you are not doing actual work. 

Quote

 It sounds like you might be talking about what may better be called psychic phenomena.

No, I´m not talking at all about psychic phenomena. 

Quote

, however those are different and it is useful not to confuse them.

No. There is only ONE LIFE. This one.

Whatever you make out of this, that is what will experience.

There is no such a thing as a 'TRUTH DIMENSION' where the actual truth where Happiness and Perfection exists, and meanwhile this life doesn't matter.

Notice how you guys are creating the same trick Christians did with the 'Heaven'.

You are thinking the work is not about making this life more profound, loving, intense, unitary, effortless, but rather that you can just do nothing because 'outthere' there is "THE TRUTH" saves us and where everything is answered. 

A complete fantasy of the ego to NOT realize is THIS ONE the Only life. 

Stop imagining Truth as a concept! Is this. 

Is this life. This one. What the hell you going to make out of it?

Clock is ticking. If you lived miserably, that's it. That's what you did out of it.

No truth, no heaven, no God will make it out for you. 

States of Being are all that there is. Forget the wildcard of Truth. Act like you never heard of that word. Is extremely limiting and stagnating for most of you guys. 

Edited November 10, 2023 by Javfly33

[Schizophonia]

Am I the only one who doesn't want to run away from reality ?

[Schizophonia]

@Javfly33 Why not just find a girlfriend, start a family, have a job, eat ice cream, and generally do human things? (including spirituality)

I am relatively certain that you are not suffering from anything serious, which would justify wanting to "break the spirit".
You will have plenty of time to no longer be there after your death, and it's coming soon 👍

Edited November 10, 2023 by Schizophonia

[ZzzleepingBear]

To "defeat" the mind seems like a very arbritary goal. I'd guess alot can be said about this topic based on how you choose to interpret it.

[Schizophonia]

Btw, the only way to dissociate from reality is suffering, voluntary (asceticism) or not. Lots of people here talk about love all day long but don't quite behave in a way that follows, because they are privileged people from the first world who have never experienced particularly unusual long-term suffering (cancer, malnutrition, psychosis, severe mental illnesses, chronic disabling illnesses, etc.). Meditation, yoga etc will never change anything, there is no way to cheat.

And even there everything is polarized, it is because you embrace suffering that you can benefit from love, being dissociated dulls it. This is why you are in duality.

[Guest Bazooka Jesus]

33 minutes ago, Schizophonia said:

Am I the only one who doesn't want to run away from reality ?

Yes you are! Well, let's say you and perhaps five other people on this forum.

I mean, let's be honest... few of us would ever have ended up becoming forum members if it hadn't been for the fact that we had the very strong urge to escape "mundane reality" in one way or another, or at the very least significantly upgrade it. But if you are doing the "work" properly, you will eventually reach a point where you fall madly in love with ordinary, mundane, boring ass old reality just like it is, like it has always been. Sure, some of us are going to take a couple of rather wild and bumpy detours along the way, but the destination will be the same one: The place where you started.

[UnbornTao]

6 hours ago, Javfly33 said:

You reply is like a reply of chatgpt + Leo famous phrases as 'truth doesn't care about you' or 'become deeply conscious of X'.

I´m sorry if that is too straight forward but I think you need honesty. You are wasting your time precious time with la la land solace narratives and it seems to me you are not doing actual work. 

And yet, despite appearances, the points might still be valid. You're projecting that I'm saying something based on somebody else.

Again, it depends on what you're pursuing and why. It's always useful to clarify that.

Hearsay aside, we should ask: What is consciousness? What are states? What is experience?

Quote

No, I´m not talking at all about psychic phenomena. 

 

Quote

No. There is only ONE LIFE. This one.

Whatever you make out of this, that is what will experience.

There is no such a thing as a 'TRUTH DIMENSION' where the actual truth where Happiness and Perfection exists, and meanwhile this life doesn't matter.

Notice how you guys are creating the same trick Christians did with the 'Heaven'.

You are thinking the work is not about making this life more profound, loving, intense, unitary, effortless, but rather that you can just do nothing because 'outthere' there is "THE TRUTH" saves us and where everything is answered. 

A complete fantasy of the ego to NOT realize is THIS ONE the Only life. 

Stop imagining Truth as a concept! Is this. 

Is this life. This one. What the hell you going to make out of it?

Clock is ticking. If you lived miserably, that's it. That's what you did out of it.

No truth, no heaven, no God will make it out for you. 

States of Being are all that there is. Forget the wildcard of Truth. Act like you never heard of that word. Is extremely limiting and stagnating for most of you guys. 

What I'm saying is that self-transformation and enlightenment are two different pursuits. It sounds like your priority is transforming your experience of life, which is worthwhile to do. States can be healing, transformative and influential in how life is experienced. Not saying pursuing one invalidates the other, in fact they complement each other.

And then there's absolute consciousness. It is a possibility to be realised now, not an unreachable ideal different from or outside of, life. Go after both while acknowledging they're different pursuits.

Being allows for states to exist, it precedes states. As this matter goes beyond self concerns, you won't find any value, use or meaning there and it will still be what's true -- when realized directly.

Edited November 10, 2023 by UnbornTao

[UnbornTao]

You can't transcend anything you're not deeply conscious of. It isn't about running away from anything but understanding it deeply. Don't put the cart before the horse.

So wonder about stuff. Question the nature of mind, perception, suffering, happiness, etc. Have breakthroughs and insights into these matters. And pursue self-transformation at the same time.

Edited November 10, 2023 by UnbornTao

[Razard86]

4 hours ago, Sincerity said:

@Javfly33 You have to learn to fall in love with the ordinary. Treat this as a big part of this work. Maybe then You'll turn the "ordinary work" into an extraordinary, worthwhile pursuit.

It's not always mystical, exciting, etc... and if You only love it when it's mystical then your love is weak.

I like to see Reality as a woman. If You only love Her when She's mystical and then when that's gone You're frustrated with Her, then You're being a mega asshole. You're being a bad partner so to say, a bad appreciator of Reality. Which I understand, really.

Actually I've been going through something similar recently since I'm taking a longer (1-2 year) break from psychedelics (I made a promise to someone). The thoughts of not having access to LSD kind of states and consciousness scared me before, thoughts of being "locked" in the ordinary. I do experience sober awakenings but they didn't feel enough - mystical, divine, extraordinary enough... But it's something You can accept. You can learn to love "normality" and the everyday small lessons which are always there. And it grows your character a lot.

With enough love You can accept Her for what She is, right now. Be a "good partner". Maybe She'll even thank You for it.  Because to Her, not even the smallest gesture of appreciation goes unnoticed, and You reap what You sow.

Look at you out here giving away trade secrets. Man I wonder if they will catch on?

[Yimpa]

Look at the mind from all different angles. Even the perspectives you deem as wrong or evil can be seen clearly. Not because you change the contents to fit how you need it to be, but because you see it for what it actually is.

And, now, a word from ChatGPT:

Quote

Viewing the mind from various angles, including those we might initially reject, can indeed provide a more comprehensive understanding. It's akin to exploring a multifaceted gem; each facet reflects light differently, revealing unique aspects. This approach doesn't mean agreeing with all perspectives but rather acknowledging their existence and understanding their nature. Just as a kaleidoscope shows different patterns with the same set of beads, exploring diverse mental perspectives can reveal new insights into the human experience. 

 

[Schizophonia]

54 minutes ago, Razard86 said:

Look at you out here giving away trade secrets. Man I wonder if they will catch on?

What if this “woman” sticks a (hot) soldering iron in your ass?

I mean, the problem for 99.9% of people in history is not "dealing with bland life without psychedelics" lol, but more like getting your ass kicked by a rapist, coughing up blood from generalized cancer, be starved almost to death, to be cuckolded, loneliness, depression...

 

Edited November 10, 2023 by Schizophonia

[Schizophonia]

1 hour ago, Bazooka Jesus said:

Yes you are! Well, let's say you and perhaps five other people on this forum.

Yeaaah, give my my trophy 

Quote

I mean, let's be honest... few of us would ever have ended up becoming forum members if it hadn't been for the fact that we had the very strong urge to escape "mundane reality" in one way or another, or at the very least significantly upgrade it. But if you are doing the "work" properly, you will eventually reach a point where you fall madly in love with ordinary, mundane, boring ass old reality just like it is, like it has always been. Sure, some of us are going to take a couple of rather wild and bumpy detours along the way, but the destination will be the same one: The place where you started.

I don't know if we apply the same semantics to the notion of love, but I don't particularly like reality, I just try to accept it.
Btw, I accept it much more, it seems, than a lot of high-minded guys who talk about love all day long.

I believe that the only way to achieve acceptance is to live and suffer, in fact I am even wary of asceticism, because I believe that if you are capable of inflicting suffering on yourself it is because it was already at least accepted by your psyche, so not really subversive.
Maybe I'm wrong on this last point.

Edited November 10, 2023 by Schizophonia

[Yimpa]

Unconditional love paradoxically requires you to let go of the attachments that you love the most.

[Carl-Richard]

Just practice, don't be so serious. Or be serious, but ask yourself in meditation why you're serious. Dive into that part of your mind. Make that your practice. Your mind constantly gives you free practices.

Edited November 10, 2023 by Carl-Richard