The real reason the world is obsessed with Israel

[Nivsch]

6 hours ago, MuadDib said:

 If that's how you want your country to run, fine. But you must understand that this is very racist, undemocratic and the definition of an ethnostate and it's not anti-Semitic to point this out, which is my issue with this thread. It's a sneaky cover for exposing some truth. 

What Hamas did was reprehensible, I have no support for anyone who would do that. Israel has every right to defend itself from Hamas. I also don't see Israel as completely innocent, you want Palestinian people to fuck off, have been slowly abusing them and don't have a problem with killing them now you have an excuse.
It is what it is.
This is how the world works.

Jews deserve one country to be theirs and to reflect and deffend their values.

Muslims and christians are already have 200.

Glad to help.

Edited November 13, 2023 by Nivsch

[Merkabah Star]

3 hours ago, Lila9 said:

Israeli Arabs who know both Arabic and Hebrew don't afraid to speak Arabic when they are abord, they afraid to speak Hebrew because there are so many antisemitic and anti-Israelies people who tend to be hostile and violent.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cyiqb9xxB1z/?igshid=eWhsNWc5ampndjgz

Really would depend on where you are. Most people wouldn’t know what Hebrew sounds like? I wouldn’t. I could probably guess it? 
 

you are Dutch yeah? That accent to me sounds really throaty and a bit Arabic. I don’t find it nice to listen to. 
 

when you have any country bombing and bombing defenceless people you don’t want to broadcast you are from that country when abroad. It’s just common sense. 

[BlueOak]

Let's put all the labels together and make ourselves the ultimate victim, that way I can justify anything. No you are all my enemy, I can now say and do anything to you and if you say a word against it, your a nazi, or an anti-semite, or insert the worst label I can give you. So agree with me. You have to. I said so. Ignore everything else, do exactly what I say, and allow me to do whatever I want. No? You're a nazi then. This thinking has caused some of the worst behavior in my own life when I used it, and around the globe.

From a purely Western perspective, his argument is flawed. Western countries were not supplying Russia with weapons or taking part in Russia's leveling of Chechnya. They give Israel the ability to carry out their actions, and they shield Israel from other countries' nearby natural response, which allows it to continue. If they weren't Israel would not be doing this, because 5 other countries around them would already be at war, and they would not have the weapons to fight it. 

He of course also underexaggerates all the protests over things like Iraq's urban areas being targeted, or the outrage over Russia bombing urban areas. He talks about Tibet? Plenty of people protested that, almost everything he talked about were protested but we had no power to change them. Here we do. Civilian casualties draw protests, but usually in greater numbers when we are involved somehow. Then he goes on about hundreds of years old banking, yes in feudal times people vilified everyone they could when it suited them. Religions, minorities, social classes, other kingdoms, not much has changed, it was just worse. Women brewing beer I believe were targeted by the church for example, so the monks and male brewers could take over the trade, that's where all the witch pointy hat nonsense came from.

I can't speak for all the other Muslim countries' differing interests between Chechnya and Palestine, but proximity, relation to those being killed, the strain of refugees, and how much it destabilizes the nearby countries, as well as undermine the surrounding governments if they do nothing, are responsible for a larger push to do something. As it was with Europe and Ukraine. Many brothers, or families in Eastern Europe were being killed, and millions of refugees were pouring into nearby countries destabilizing them. As well as other factors unique to the conflict, food, energy, threats to expand further, etc.

The best thing the west could do, would be to not shield Israel from the natural response of the surrounding states when they are on the offensive. This would be to bring a natural balance to keep the aggression in check. Coupled with of course taking out the Hamas leadership across the globe, and when Israel has moved to a logical approach, get as many hostages back as possible. Only to act when Israel's rank and file troops are inside its own borders and it's on the defensive.

The current approach of occupying more land, I understand long term despite the brutality and horrific nature of it, that it will stop violence from that particular area. The occupation itself however adds another 50-100 years more justification for violence against Israel, in the minds of those who think that way. Its even got Iran and Saudia Arabia talking again.

There is always a claim to be the victim, everyone wants to be the victim in any conflict, as it means you justify much more. Yes a lot of people died in a terrible brutal way. If he'd of just said we lost a lot of people, we needed to take action. I'd respect him a lot more and the argument you and he are making.  Instead, you have to make up all this moralizing over hundreds of years to justify the death of children, and the extension of hatred toward Israel in the region for the next 50-100 years. Worse this could be the trigger of a much broader war, and some in Israel are calling for exactly that.

[MuadDib]

8 hours ago, Nivsch said:

Jews deserve one country to be theirs and to reflect and deffend their values.

Muslims and christians are already have 200.

Glad to help.

Nobody deserves a country. Countries are taken, often with violence and force.

What about scientologists, atheists, and dozens of other groups without a country, do they deserve one each?

What if tomorrow the USA decided that Jews are causing too many problems in Israel, and demanded that you begin to allow Mormons to buy up property, or they would threaten to cut your 3 billion dollars a year in millitary funding. The Mormons have roots in Christianity and a connection to Israel as well, maybe they're the perfect new owners. Non violent, smart, no complicated history.

Then slowly the Mormons took over because they're also economically savvy, pushing the Jews into concentrated pockets, took control of their water, threatened them during elections, took control of their ports and just brushed off their complaints saying that the Jews can move somewhere else.

What if the Jewish children, now poor and uneducated with no prospects and no furute got violent and aggressive. Everytime they attacked Mormons, the Mormons started bombing schools and hospitals with their shiny US funded weaponry telling the world they're just savages and terrorists and theres nothing to do?

I can criticise the Christians for invading the USA and obliterating the local indian population. Sometimes the American Indians retaliated with their bows and arrows and savagely took the scalps of the settlers. The settler might say that theyre bringing all this technology and development and making the lives of the American Indian better than before ... maybe, but also maybe not so much. All these critiscisms would be justified and nobody would call me Christophobic.

I'm not judging Israelis, but we need to be clear about whats happing here. It's a modern day occupation.

There should be a better way to help Palestinians to move away. They seem to really care about their childrens education. What if there was funding for education institutions to help the kids develop skills that make them valuable to other countries.

[zazen]

@MuadDib  @BlueOak  both very well said and written.

 

Israelis who’ve been marinating in a self-validating echo chamber of Zionist ideology which dehumanizes Palestinians and normalizes oppression and abuse don’t think twice about saying things that make Israel look bad on the world stage, because to them it’s just the standard status quo way of looking at things.

Some years ago The Empire Files’ Abby Martin put together a devastating critique of the Zionist ideology just by going around the streets of Jerusalem with a camera and a microphone and talking to Jewish Israelis about their views on Palestinians. Over and over and over again they shared their support for tyranny, murder, genocide and ethnic cleansing in their own words and without hesitation, never thinking that their words could be used to harm Israel’s image, because to them these were just normal things that they said all the time in their day to day life.

You see the same sort of thing when Israelis are filmed sitting in lawn chairs to watch and cheer IDF bombing operations on Palestinian neighborhoods, during which a woman once told the press “I’m just a little bit fascist” after advocating the total destruction of Gaza City.

Every time this happens it sends viral video footage around the internet and does real damage to the world’s perception of Israel. That’s a big part of why Israel is struggling to control the narrative about the Gaza massacre today, which is in turn being exacerbated by more incendiary statements by Israelis, not just from the general public but from within the Israeli government itself.

[PurpleTree]

hasan cringe abi

[numbersinarow]

On 11/6/2023 at 11:58 PM, Merkabah Star said:

The world isn’t obsessed with Israel and the world isn’t Anti Semitic. 

I wouldn't say that much but what is clear is that your statement applies to the people feigning outrage over israel's pursuit. None of their criticisms would ever be applied to the actions of the United States. it is true, they aren't doing it out of hatred for jews at all it's simply because they want to perpetuate a pre-rational double standard that paints america as infallible.

There is a sort of no-win game for you to play.

If you defend israel bombing children then you are aligning with the manufactured consent, and the obviousness of this is extreme in the case of people who jumped on the first immoral invasion theory bandwagon when putin invaded ukraine.

If you condemn israel for killing children then you are right however make sure you're highlighting the fact that 1. they are doing this with the help of the west and 2. the US military themselves is helping them in ethnic cleansing. Otherwise you're helping propagandists.

Edited November 15, 2023 by numbersinarow

[Merkabah Star]

3 minutes ago, numbersinarow said:

I wouldn't say that much but what is clear is that your statement applies to the people feigning outrage over israel's pursuit. None of their criticisms would ever be applied to the actions of the United States. it is true, they aren't doing it out of hatred for jews at all it's simply because they want to perpetuate a pre-rational double standard that paints america as infallible.

There is a sort of no-win game for you to play.

If you defend israel bombing children then you are aligning with the manufactured consent, and the obviousness of this is extreme in the case of people who jumped on the first immoral invasion theory bandwagon when putin invaded ukraine.

If you condemn israel for killing children then you are right however make sure you're highlighting the fact that 1. they are doing this with the help of the west and 2. the US military themselves is helping them in ethnic cleansing. Otherwise you're helping propagandists.

I was just as outraged when the US invaded Iraq. 

[BlueOak]

On 11/15/2023 at 8:39 PM, numbersinarow said:

I wouldn't say that much but what is clear is that your statement applies to the people feigning outrage over israel's pursuit. None of their criticisms would ever be applied to the actions of the United States. it is true, they aren't doing it out of hatred for jews at all it's simply because they want to perpetuate a pre-rational double standard that paints america as infallible.

There is a sort of no-win game for you to play.

If you defend israel bombing children then you are aligning with the manufactured consent, and the obviousness of this is extreme in the case of people who jumped on the first immoral invasion theory bandwagon when putin invaded ukraine.

If you condemn israel for killing children then you are right however make sure you're highlighting the fact that 1. they are doing this with the help of the west and 2. the US military themselves is helping them in ethnic cleansing. Otherwise you're helping propagandists.

Yes that's war, no win zero-sum games being played in an infinite universe. If we just got off Earth into a near-infinite space, we'd no longer consider a few KM's of land worth any notice at all. Re: Oh no AI's are going to take us over, yeah really in a universe so big the earth isn't even a grain of sand, i'm sure an intelligent creation would waste their time here.

That's what all people in power do, often have a very limited perspective and play zero-sum games. Not so much populist sentiment, as that's built on predictable emotional responses. People in power have greater propaganda tools than ever to trigger that emotion, and a press that's entirely bought out, they use these tools to control how others at least 'feel' if not see the world. There is some observation bias in your words. There were huge protests over the second Iraq war for example. Anything where people are directly involved and civilian casualties happen in the West gets pushback. These days as the entire world has shifted so far to the right over my lifetime, there is less care all around. I railed against it for decades but I've realised my wanting that to be otherwise is utterly pointless. People have become more unsympathetic on mass, to the point where protest itself was not only vilified but suppressed for a time, that's why these things can happen with more ease. The populist left is utterly suppressed and dead, (except a glimmer of hope with unions), and all the anti-establishment sentiment or populism is on the right. Guess what that takes us further right in democracies, but hey ho I can't tell corporations or people in power because either they want it to happen or would rather ignore the obvious.

However, you are looking at it with an unnecessarily limited perspective, if you think moralizing isn't many people's entire existence and the most important thing to them is to feel like the good guy. You dismissing that is robbing yourself of a more complete view, at least of past actions like Iraq, if not so much present ones where fewer people care, and the people in power really don't care about populist socialist or liberal sentiment

[zazen]

More false claims perpetuating more death. No command centre found at shifa hospital - babies stripped from incubators put at risk with some dying at the expense of false intelligence.

 

Even BBC can’t play along any longer. And now Israel are warning Gazans in the south to evacuate - to where exactly? 
 

Israel want all the land and that gets clearer and clearer by the day. The world has woken up to the situation.

 

 

Edited November 18, 2023 by zazen