Forgiveness

[Ayla]

In my own journey, I have noticed big and small miracles taking place once I managed to forgive people and situations. 

I am talking here about real forgiveness, the one that is replacing hate/fear with unconditional love. 

I think this is a topic that has its place in this forum. What is your experience with forgiveness ? 

[Alena K.]

Love this idea, Ayla! For me, to start forgiving was a huge move. I was trapped in the victim mode for not accepting and hating myself which lead me to massive overeating, not attractive look and low self-esteem. To leave this circle I had to stop blaming my family life-style which is rather passive, lot about TV and loads of food. First I had to realize that if I don´t like living that and being who I was,  I must change this myself. Crucial part of that was to forgive to my family for handing me over the bad and destructive habits. And it was important to keep re-confirming that forgivness feeling at every point of the process I did to change my life-style. Because I was confronted a lot with: why on earth would you do this? why do you put yourself through that "torture"? and similar. But what looked destructive to them, was healing for me. I live very differently than the rest of my family now. It was several years long process. And from this point, where I am now, feeling and knowing that I am the one who makes decisions on how I live and who I am, I am actually grateful for my family and love them more than ever before. Realized that they are great, that my childhood way too fabulous comparing to what many others had to go through and yes, I still got many neurosis from it but I can see now also many GOODs I got. They still gave me the best they were capable of. My top relief in life  

 

[Leo Gura]

Three points come to mind for me about this topic:

1) Very important to realize that forgiveness is not done for THEM, but for YOU! It should come from an awareness that holding a grudge is hurting YOU.

2) Therapist Brad Blanton talks about this. His says telling folks to forgive isn't that effective. Instead what he suggests is a full disclosure of ALL the lies and hidden agendas between you and the person, until all the emotions have been fully communicated. Then forgiveness can really happen. At least that's one approach. It's got more practical meat on it than just deciding to forgive someone because that can just be a logical thought which doesn't count for much. I know that I would get more relief and true forgiveness if I, for example, had a real brutally honest 4 hour conversation with my Dad or Mom about all the accumulated baggage between us. But it's so emotionally scary we don't even want to touch that, cause people would be crying and egos would get crushed. Takes a lot of balls to do in practice. But if you have a strong grudge that's gnawing at you (I don't in this case) then it might be worth the hassle.

3) It's very helpful to realize that people SHOULDN'T act any differently than they actually did or actually do. Byron Katie talks about this a lot. If someone has mistreated you, the problem is not that they mistreated you. The problem is that you have a rule inside your head that says, "But they SHOULDN'T have mistreated me! That's not fair!" And as soon as that happens what you don't realize is that you're living in a fantasyland now where people shouldn't mistreat people. Ego has put you out of alignment with truth. Actually, in the real world, people DO mistreat people! That's called life. That's called living aligned with truth. How do we know people are SUPPOSED to mistreat people? Because they do! << This can be a HUGE paradigm shift to realize. It's a powerful kind of surrender to a truth you've been secretly resisting for years. Not easy though if you've developed a strong victim complex around being mistreated.

[Ayla]

I did have that type of conversation with my parents last summer. They both threatened to kill me lol

What helped me was the understanding that indeed, I have access to forgiveness if I direct it towards myself. What I noticed in the end is that it's basically a question of motivation: do you want to be right, or do you want to be happy? paradigm comes to mind. 

What also helps is focusing on the end result. All of it brought me here.. so it has its value. 

Still remains a tricky subject... 

[Walter B]

7 hours ago, Ayla said:

I did have that type of conversation with my parents last summer. They both threatened to kill me lol

What helped me was the understanding that indeed, I have access to forgiveness if I direct it towards myself. What I noticed in the end is that it's basically a question of motivation: do you want to be right, or do you want to be happy? paradigm comes to mind. 

What also helps is focusing on the end result. All of it brought me here.. so it has its value. 

Still remains a tricky subject... 

Wow! Yep. I think I used the word paradox.

Perhaps it's an issue of understanding that negative emotional energy to one person may be conditioning that is perceived by another person as belief or doctrine. Those emotions manifest as all kinds of painful things to the one on the negative end. So, effectively, people do kill other people when "the ties that bind" become based on what they may perceive as "blurry".

I have had very similar experiences with my parents as well as others. People are commonly fearful of what they do not understand.

[Boss]

forgiveness for me defiantly gets weight off my back. However I do tend to remove them from my life if they take my kindness for weakness. 

[denselayman]

for me, i can hold small, temporary grudges, but in grand scheme i alwaws have somehow known, felt, understood that holding long grudges/hate is like literally filling a backpack with heavy rocks for each of those grudges and carry it around... so for me it is natural to forgive people.

due to this i get very surprised every time when i meet some-one who can hold very long and heavy burdens and not realise how much energy it

consumes and how it affects they're life and induidual growth.

Edited February 7, 2016 by denselayman

[Ayla]

2 minutes ago, denselayman said:

due to this i get very surprised every time when i meet some-one who can hold very long and heavy burdens and not realise how much energy it consumes and how it affects they're life and individual growth.

What about if someone raped you... or your sister/mother? Or somebody killed your dog or your child? 

Can you see it then?  

 

[Ayla]

8 minutes ago, Ayla said:

What about if someone raped you... or your sister/mother? Or somebody killed your dog or your child? 

Can you see it then?  

 

My intention is to make you aware that not accepting that other people CAN have all kinds of grievances is yet another way that Ego can slide through the back door

 

[denselayman]

24 minutes ago, Ayla said:

What about if someone raped you... or your sister/mother? Or somebody killed your dog or your child? 

Can you see it then?  

 

in case of rape or when the abuser cannot be identified, one has to forgive to move on. and by that i mean on both cases, to oneself for not being there or not being able to help when it happened [this regret is everpresent in horrible cases] and to attacker/murderer because there is no chance to get retribution upon him/her for it [which probably does not help much either].

it is not easy to see possibility of forgiveness from that dark place, but eventually one comes to realising that it only is harmful to onself and eventually they let go. so, in long run, forgiveness becomes self-evident, if not the grudge consumes person completely and there is no chance for recovery.

what i am trying to say is, that i myself can say i would find it in me to let it go over time, because i would see the harm that comes to me from holding that grudge....ooor i would just accept the void and those horrid feelings and go down the sure path of selfdestruction until i am no more.

all it comes down to self-preservation, if one's will is crushed he decays, if will to live persists, one can let go.

do you agree on any of these points or see my way of thinking on this matter?

Edited February 7, 2016 by denselayman

[Phrae]

Realizing how it's petty to hold on to hate. It detracts me from what I should be doing and takes my focus away from taking responsibility. I choose another type of behavior towards others. I would choose to not make them a part of my life without any ill will.

[Ayla]

13 minutes ago, denselayman said:

in case of rape or when the abuser cannot be identified, one has to forgive to move on. and by that i mean on both cases, to oneself for not being there or not being able to help when it happened [this regret is everpresent in horrible cases] and to attacker/murderer because there is no chance to get retribution upon him/her for it [which probably does not help much either].

it is not easy to see possibility of forgiveness from that dark place, but eventually one comes to realising that it only is harmful to onself and eventually they let go. so, in long run, forgiveness becomes self-evident, if not the grudge consumes person completely and there is no chance for recovery.

what i am trying to say is, that i myself can say i would find it in me to let it go over time, because i would see the harm that comes to me from holding that grudge....ooor i would just accept the void and those horrid feelings and go down the sure path of selfdestruction until i am no more.

all it comes down to self-preservation, if one's will is crushed he decays, if will to live persists, one can let go.

do you agree on any of these points or see my way of thinking on this matter?

I absolutely do see your point and I do agree. 

23 minutes ago, Ayla said:

My intention is to make you aware that not accepting that other people CAN have all kinds of grievances is yet another way that Ego can slide through the back door

 

 

[denselayman]

25 minutes ago, Ayla said:

My intention is to make you aware that not accepting that other people CAN have all kinds of grievances is yet another way that Ego can slide through the back door

 

its not that i am not accepting, i think i am. it just surprises me every time =] because for me it is obvious that it does more harm than good to hold thse grievances for prolonged periods of time. it also can be surprise because i am not people person or very social, outgoing person and i don't meet very much new people, so every new actual ineraction beyond absolute surface level is huge for me =]

[Colin]

I think self love plays a huge role in forgiveness. Without self love you may not find it worthwhile to forgive. Self love is so foundational to so many things.

I remember watching an interview with Brene Brown and Oprah and they were discussing how rape victims can get over a one time event , but the thing that cripples them is that they believe that they are unworthy of love.   Which is Brene Brown's definition of shame,  The belief that you are unworthy of love.   She also contends that shame is one of the major causes of violence, suicide, drug addiction, and more.

So how do we love ourselves? How do we affirm that we are worthy of love just as we are?

One way that has been working for me is a Kamal Ravikant style of affirmation. Where you just affirm over and over again "I love myself" for as long as you possibly can. It helps to put your hands on your chest when you do this.

And I have to say that it actually works. I'm still a beginner to this practice, but the love flows and if feels really really good.

But trust me when I say that I have much work to do in the area of forgiveness and self love

All the best,
- Colin



 

[Guest]

Ayla, I want to share a method that I use, it works quite good for me.

I learned that what we don't like in other people, what hurts us, maybe their behaviours and intentions are part of ourselves that we stopped feeding. I mean what hurts us is also part of us by which we can understand other human beings and the reasons of their behaviours. Thus, I think what they have been through and don't judge them, instead, I try to understand them. That's how I forgive.

[Ayla]

1 minute ago, Sarper said:

Ayla, I want to share a method that I use, it works quite good for me.

I learned that what we don't like in other people, what hurts us, maybe their behaviours and intentions are part of ourselves that we stopped feeding. I mean what hurts us is also part of us by which we can understand other human beings and the reasons of their behaviours. Thus, I think what they have been through and don't judge them, instead, I try to understand them. That's how I forgive.

You are right! 

But there's another side to this: These are old wounds appearing to you so that you can heal them! 

[Walter B]

18 minutes ago, Ayla said:

You are right! 

But there's another side to this: These are old wounds appearing to you so that you can heal them! 

Yes, and it is possible for a person to remove all the burdens.  And then to have the burdens come back by the shared sense.  I have to say the Law of Attraction would be my first look to understand further how they found their way home!!! Lol  It's like the anti-Law of Diffusion! haha

Animals have a really keen sense to find their way home.  Now, what confuses us so much?  The human element perhaps.

It does in many cases take re-exposure in body or mind to the initial harm with awareness and techniques in order to alleviate the problem.  Visualization can help.  And guided meditation does as well.

[Walter B]

4 hours ago, Phrae said:

Realizing how it's petty to hold on to hate. It detracts me from what I should be doing and takes my focus away from taking responsibility. I choose another type of behavior towards others. I would choose to not make them a part of my life without any ill will.

It does seem to be the only way.  Requires good people skills to be more gentle in some cases.  And a focus on self-control and self-honesty.  Hate is such a waste of time!!!  And it causes lots of problems.

[Walter B]

53 minutes ago, Colin said:

I think self love plays a huge role in forgiveness. Without self love you may not find it worthwhile to forgive. Self love is so foundational to so many things.

I remember watching an interview with Brene Brown and Oprah and they were discussing how rape victims can get over a one time event , but the thing that cripples them is that they believe that they are unworthy of love.   Which is Brene Brown's definition of shame,  The belief that you are unworthy of love.   She also contends that shame is one of the major causes of violence, suicide, drug addiction, and more.

So how do we love ourselves? How do we affirm that we are worthy of love just as we are?

One way that has been working for me is a Kamal Ravikant style of affirmation. Where you just affirm over and over again "I love myself" for as long as you possibly can. It helps to put your hands on your chest when you do this.

And I have to say that it actually works. I'm still a beginner to this practice, but the love flows and if feels really really good.

But trust me when I say that I have much work to do in the area of forgiveness and self love

All the best,
- Colin



 

That was great!  I had forgotten that detail, but my default was affirmations as well with something else. 

[Walter B]

4 hours ago, denselayman said:

its not that i am not accepting, i think i am. it just surprises me every time =] because for me it is obvious that it does more harm than good to hold thse grievances for prolonged periods of time. it also can be surprise because i am not people person or very social, outgoing person and i don't meet very much new people, so every new actual ineraction beyond absolute surface level is huge for me =]

It seems that you kinda have to do that part to make progression at some point.  Just visit with diverse groups doing diverse activities.  Especially exercising as it has such a cleansing effect.  And this all repeats it's need as you grow.  Everything cycles, at least once it is started and continued.  The wavelike motion of life let's say.

But yes, those grievances will eat you from the inside.  That's most of the cancer out there!

And you don't have to verbalize much, you know, with those "new actual interactions".

Edited February 7, 2016 by Elemental
grammer