GENOCIDE : more children killed in 3 weeks in Gaza than annual world total

[DawnC]

3 hours ago, Loveeee said:

When Lina used the "Syrian refugees doing the same in Europe" analogy, I did bring up historical connection because it felt wrong

But that doesn't make it right

Two wrongs don't make a right 

Yes, But it is important to understand that for many Jewish people, it was a choice between returning to their historical homeland or remaining at the mercy of other nations, enduring what they had endured. I don't believe this can be disregarded, especially considering that there were no distinct Palestinian people at that time but a larger Arab society that included Syria and other regions. This is actually a very interesting point we've reached, because I believe it's a fundamental area of disagreement that may persist even when the complete historical background of the peoples and region is known to us both. I suppose it comes down to biases and the difference in value preferences.

Anyway, the historical context from the beginning up until today is crucial in forming a solid moral standpoint. Even if you consider the foundational stance of the Zionists to be immoral, it's essential to reassess your moral position as circumstances evolve. This is what I meant when I wrote 'you can sympathize with whomever you want, but you have to understand the current situation and history'. For instance, would you consider destroying Israel now to be moral just because you don't agree with their original moral stance? From my understanding, when you examine the historical trajectory and the current state of affairs, even under the assumption of Zionism's immorality, the entire perspective shifts. And I've written quite a bit about it, so I think I'll leave it at that.  

Edited November 5, 2023 by DawnC

[DawnC]

40 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

It is possible, and it is also possible that the extremism that is emerging in Israel with guys like Ben Gvir and Amichai Eliyahu , who practically advocate genocide and ethnic cleansing, are a consequence of 100 years of threat, but the reality is that they exist and they increasingly have more power. I think Israel should be very careful not to become a monster like Nazism. Today he said that dropping an atomic bomb in Gaza is an option, and that no Palestinian is innocent. How many Israeli thinks in that way? Surely not only him

I agree that it's important for them to be cautious about it. But note that even after enduring what they have, this individual was condemned across almost the entire political spectrum and got suspended from office. And Hamas terrorists have been glorified in the majority of Palestinian society, including in the West Bank. This is the crucial difference I consistently emphasize here (and nag people about ). 

Edited November 5, 2023 by DawnC

[Breakingthewall]

8 minutes ago, DawnC said:

Hamas terrorists have been glorified in the majority of Palestinian society, including in the West Bank. This is the crucial point I consistently emphasize here (and nag people about it ). 

Sure, I am not comparing the general Israeli attitude with the Palestinian one, but there is an emerging one that is comparable to the Palestinian one and even to Nazism. If you allow those people to develop their points, you will get Nazism 2.0.

Israel should be exemplary, show the morality of Western and Jewish society. And the truth is, that thing about settlers stealing land is very far away. It is a shame, it is disgusting and it legitimizes Hamas. As long as that Jewish Nazism that looks to the Bible to set the borders of its nation has a voice in the government and in society, Israel appears as a criminal nation to the world. You will see how the anti-Israel attitude grows exponentially. If Israel is not exemplary, it does not deserve to be where it is, they should leave. The right to return to it's land must be deserved showing a perfectly moral behavior, not with those Nazis

Edited November 5, 2023 by Breakingthewall

[DawnC]

1 minute ago, Breakingthewall said:

Sure, I am not comparing the general Israeli attitude with the Palestinian one, but there is an emerging one that is comparable to the Palestinian one and even to Nazism. If you allow those people to develop their points, you will get Nazism 2.0.

Israel should be exemplary, show the morality of Western and Jewish society. And the truth is, that thing about settlers stealing land is very far away. It is a shame, it is disgusting and it legitimizes Hamas. As long as that Jewish Nazism that looks to the Bible to set the borders of its nation has a voice in the government and in society, Israel appears as a criminal nation to the world. You will see how the anti-Israel attitude grows exponentially. If Israel is not exemplary, it does not deserve to be where it is, they should leave

I believe most Israelis understand this. The discussion about settler violence may be somewhat exaggerated. There are very strong efforts in Israeli society to contain and completely stop such incidents. It does exist, and it is dangerous and disgusting, but I don't believe it's on the scale often portrayed. And there is an issue with appearances in this regard. Anyway, I don't think it's realistic to expect any society, even a Western one, to be entirely free of extremists. I mean, even Europeans and the US struggle with this issue. Just look at what happens in Europe due to a portion of immigrants. Israelis are dealing with a 20% Arab population and an occupation, and yet they have managed to maintain a relatively healthy society. It's a precarious situation for their society, but the last 70 years shows they have managed well enough in this regard. I hope for them I'm not mistaken in my assessment.

[Breakingthewall]

@DawnC agree about that living in Israel must be a test comparing with Europe, but they must show an special moral and human behavior, if not the disaster is guaranteed. we Will see if Israel stop this people, they are real Nazis, it's a shame that they aren't prohibited

https://imeu.org/article/the-religious-zionism-coalition

Edited November 5, 2023 by Breakingthewall

[Guest Tobia]

@DawnC

48 minutes ago, DawnC said:

I don't think it's realistic to expect any society, even a Western one, to be entirely free of extremists.

When you elect a fascist like Itamar Ben Gvir as minister of internal security, your society is seriously rotten.

The extremists are in the government itself, the fucking ministers are fanatical terrorists.

Here he is distributing weapons to settlers recently

[DawnC]

1 minute ago, Tobia said:

@DawnC

When you elect a fascist like Itamar Ben Gvir as minister of internal security, your society is seriously rotten.

The extremists are in the government itself, the fucking ministers are fanatical terrorists.

Here he is distributing weapons to settlers recently

 

I never said there are no problems in Israeli society. Clearly, this guy and his position are a serious problem. Again, as I understand the Israeli society, I think most of them understand this.

Those weapons are distributed to emergency squads in difficult areas. The places with equipped and prepared emergency squads were the only ones that were not completely slaughtered in 7/10 in the south of Israel, so I don't hold it against them. I think that presenting this as militarizing settlers is actually misleading.

[Yimpa]

On 11/3/2023 at 1:33 AM, Leo Gura said:

Not genocide but war crimes/collective punishment -- yes.

Good job with reframing.

Conscious communication starts by first developing a nuanced understanding of a situation, and not allowing your biases or limited perspective hijack the narrative.

[Loveeee]

8 hours ago, DawnC said:

For instance, would you consider destroying Israel now to be moral just because you don't agree with their original moral stance? 

 

12 hours ago, lina said:

I know both sides made mistakes. But the point is that one side started this cycle by establishing a state on an illegitimate, weak and unsustainable foundation, which will always need to resort to violence to ensure it's survival. This is not good for both the Palestinians and the Israelis. 

 

[Loveeee]

6 hours ago, Yimpa said:

Good job with reframing.

Conscious communication starts by first developing a nuanced understanding of a situation, and not allowing your biases or limited perspective hijack the narrative.

There's a fine line between the two, considering the situation that's been going on for decades and how it culminates today

10,000 dead, mostly women and children

Given the context (blockade, displacement, etc) , at this rate we can expect like 5x more at least

Also remember genocide is not only about killing people 

Edited November 6, 2023 by Loveeee

[DawnC]

@Loveeee After our entire discussion, you're going to insist on this absurd terminology? .  There's nothing wrong with admitting you chose the wrong words.

 

[Nivsch]

@Loveeee You overlook the fact that what hamas does all day long is to hide behind civilians because otherwise it has 0% chance to survive.

This is its full-time job. Its #1 survival strategy and therefore Its main activity during the day and it does this with the most manipulative ways you can think about.

When Israel has tens of thousands terror targets to attack, and has this huge time pressure to rescue its hostages, to not have many mistakes in this kind of situation is impossible.

Edited November 6, 2023 by Nivsch

[Yimpa]

22 hours ago, Yimpa said:

Good job with reframing.

Conscious communication starts by first developing a nuanced understanding of a situation, and not allowing your biases or limited perspective hijack the narrative.

16 hours ago, Loveeee said:

There's a fine line between the two, considering the situation that's been going on for decades and how it culminates today

10,000 dead, mostly women and children

Given the context (blockade, displacement, etc) , at this rate we can expect like 5x more at least

Also remember genocide is not only about killing people 

I hear your perspective. Notice how that narrative, too can be reframed. You can reframe it towards higher wisdom or ignorance. 

Conflict is the resistance of necessary change within yourself. How you frame a conflict has massive consequences. Not just in how you imagine it, but what actions you take right now to resolve it.

[Loveeee]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_genocide_accusation

[Raze]

https://twitter.com/DoubleDownNews/status/1721924020755480640?s=20

[DawnC]

 

@Loveeee I think this is worth watching. He doesn't neglect things that you consider immoral actions by Israel, but rather analyzes the situation from a broader moral perspective.

[jaylimix]

On 11/3/2023 at 11:42 AM, Loveeee said:

Of the past 3 years, according to the global charity Save the Children

Now 3800, and counting 

This isn't your typical war, it's not even a war, it's a genocide 

Yes GENOCIDE, don't be scared of the word, the UN isn't, as shown in this article published on their website today

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide

Genocide is the intentional destruction of a people in whole or in part. In 1948, the United Nations Genocide Convention defined genocide as any of five "acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group". These five acts were: killing members of the group, causing them serious bodily or mental harm, imposing living conditions intended to destroy the group, preventing births, and forcibly transferring children out of the group. Victims are targeted because of their real or perceived membership of a group, not randomly

According to global charity Save the Children...

Who do you think Save the Children got the death toll numbers from?

Gaza Health Ministry, under the watching eye and direction of Hamas.

Well I guess you can trust Hamas, who does not use death toll as war propaganda, yeah totally not.

[numbersinarow]

On 11/3/2023 at 7:57 AM, StarStruck said:

Any other country who would do this would be sanctioned 

Some small island MAY put sanctions on the US.

[Lila9]

I read that a group of Israelies have purchased the domain hamas.com and made it on the surface to appear like a Hamas fans website but actually shows videos of the butchery done by Hamas on October 7.

I don't recommend checking this, I checked this and this is very graphic.

 

Edited November 24, 2023 by Lila9

[Nivsch]

1 hour ago, Lila9 said:

I read that a group of Israelies have purchased the domain hamas.com and made it on the surface to appear like a Hamas fans website but actually shows videos of the butchery done by Hamas on October 7.

I don't recommend checking this, I checked this and this is very graphic.

 

UN secretary: "an Inappropriate criminal hucking" 

Edited November 24, 2023 by Nivsch