GENOCIDE : more children killed in 3 weeks in Gaza than annual world total

[Loveeee]

@lina I mean I tried to see both sides of the equation but I guess I'm back to the light 

[Nivsch]

5 hours ago, Loveeee said:

I mean zionist is almost an insult where I live in France but when you think of it 

@DawnC  Very complex situation indeed, thanks for the link  

Insult?

Zionism is just a mental frame.

Visit here and you will see that our society is not less "western" and developed than yours.

Edited November 4, 2023 by Nivsch

[Raze]

https://twitter.com/Timesofgaza/status/1714898924803117499?s=20
 

 

[Nivsch]

@Raze  There were hamas terrorists in the ambulance from what I understood and heard.

Thats their all game 😅

This is a psychological war - their #2 function as a terror organization. For them this is like breathing. What else do you think they do? This things!

Thay are busy all day long in this. They NEED it to their survival. To put international pressure on Israel.

The west must do a switch in how he looks and grasps the game board.

Edited November 4, 2023 by Nivsch

[zazen]

Interesting view on Zionism 

[Loveeee]

18 hours ago, Loveeee said:

Good point actually

Can't have a Jewish state with a Jewish minority

The partition plan was basically a displacement plan so of course the Arabs refused 

"250,000 of them would have to be removed by force to make the Jewish state viable" (6:40)

Biased source and hard to verify but still, point taken 

@DawnC @Lila9 @Nivsch @Gennadiy1981

What do you think ?

Edited November 5, 2023 by Loveeee

[DawnC]

23 hours ago, Loveeee said:

Good point actually

Can't have a Jewish state with a Jewish minority

The partition plan was basically a displacement plan so of course the Arabs refused 

"250,000 of them would have to be removed by force to make the Jewish state viable" (6:40)

Biased source and hard to verify but still, point taken 

I think that when you are researching an ongoing conflict, you have to consider the fact that people often have a strong inclination to persuade others to their side. Many individuals may be misinformed and simply repeat things they have heard, but there are also those who are willing to manipulate, conceal important details, and even deliberately deceive you. This video is a very low quality source. It is replete with inaccuracies, manipulations, and it fails to address many details that do not support its narrative, among other forms of deception.

A tip: set aside the blame game paradigm and focus on understanding what was truly happening. You can establish your moral stance later.

Some points:

Regarding the partition plan as a displacement plan is inaccurate. There was a call for Arabs in the Jewish part to choose their citizenship (and for the small Jewish portion in the Arab part) and there were suggestions over the years before about transfers but it wasn't the proposed partition plan. I recommend reading the actual proposal or attending an academic lecture with an unbiased lecturer, this is a very difficult topic to learn about. Btw, I believe it's reasonable to think that the partition plan favored the Jews (in many aspects it did). One question is why. If you will research that, you will discover for example, that the Arab leadership refused to negotiate terms and sought the entire country for themselves (this was a pattern that began then and continues to this day). Even if it does favor the Jews, does that justify starting a war to entirely suppress the Jewish nationality? Would you recommend that side to initiate a war in order to quash the aspirations of Zionists and establish a Palestinian state from the river to the sea? Is it immoral for the Zionists to fight in that war in order to secure a victory? Saying that the Israelis knew they had a stronger army or wanted the war in order to displace the Arabs is also not true. They feared the entry of the Arab countries very much, and their triumph was far from obvious. What would have happened if the Palestinians and Arab countries had their way? 

The narrative that the British and Zionists worked together against the Palestinians is historically inaccurate. The British relationship with Arabs and Zionists evolved over the years. There were times when the British were actually hostile towards the Zionists. The narrative that it was the British who prevented the Palestinians from laying the foundations needed for a nation is also inaccurate historically. The Palestinians faced significant internal challenges even during that period. There was no established 'Palestinian nationalism' at that time, and society's focus was not primarily on nation-building. While it's true that British rule was in place, they were not the primary reason for the Palestinians' difficulties in building the foundations for a nation. It's important to ask: Who were the leaders of Palestinian society at that time? Did they cooperate effectively? What were their primary focuses? Why didn't the Palestinians advocate for a Palestinian nation when they were under the rule of Jordan and Egypt?

The reason Israelis didn't allow Palestinian refugees to return is because they are not suicidal. They did permit a small number to come back, and they were willing to negotiate the return of more only in the context of a peace agreement with the surrounding Arab countries. Would you have welcomed a large population into your country if you knew they had previously initiated a war against you, with the likelihood of more conflicts to come? It's also worth considering why, three to four generations later, these individuals are still classified as refugees. Is there a comparable situation in history? Why or why not? Who benefits from the Palestinians remaining refugees? why are the Palestinians still under occupation? They are indeed subject to Israeli occupation, but they have had opportunities to end it on three separate occasions. What factors might be influencing their decision? Could it be that the destruction of the Israeli state is deemed more important to them than the establishment of their own nation?

Essentially, the video (and Lina's perspective) is rooted in the narrative that views the Zionist movement as a form of colonialism supported by external powers. This perspective also distinguishes the Arabs in the land of Israel and Palestine (in the early days of the conflict) from other Arabs and treats them as a separate cultural entity, attributing to them separate national aspirations (Palestinian nationality) and weaker capabilities that are solely a result of colonialism. I believe this narrative simply doesn't present an unbiased research of history. What emerges from that research is a complex conflict, marked by two conflicting national aspirations that both struggled and had complicated relations with the British power. These national movements are not classical in the sense of a typical European national movement, they are both unique in many ways. And there is a general pattern of one side (The Palestinians) refusing to acknowledge the fact that the other side is gonna get his share and having many internal difficulties with nation building.

Edited November 5, 2023 by DawnC

[DawnC]

14 hours ago, zazen said:

Interesting view on Zionism 

This is either ignorance and self-deception in the better case, or deliberate lying in the worst. It has more value to learn about the speaker's tendencies and deceptions than to learn about Zionism from this video.

[Loveeee]

1 hour ago, DawnC said:

Regarding the partition plan as a displacement plan is inaccurate. There was a call for Arabs in the Jewish part to choose their citizenship (and for the small Jewish portion in the Arab part) and there were suggestions over the years before about transfers but it wasn't the proposed partition plan. 

My claim is that the displacement is implicit in the partition, how else can you create a Jewish state with a Jewish minority ? 

Choosing their citizenship ? If you're no longer a citizen that is effectively equivalent to being displaced, you're not in your country anymore

Edited November 5, 2023 by Loveeee

[DawnC]

Just now, Loveeee said:

My claim is that the displacement is implicit in the partition, how else can you create a Jewish state with a Jewish minority ? 

Choosing their citizenship ? If you're no longer a citizen that is effectively equivalent to being displaced 

There was a slight Jewish majority (~55%)

[lina]

1 hour ago, DawnC said:

Essentially, the video (and Lina's perspective) is rooted in the narrative that views the Zionist movement as a form of colonialism supported by exernal powers.

Because this IS the core problem that started all cycle of violence, mistakes and hate from both sides. You can try to convince all the people you want that there are other nuances to focus on, and how "complex" the issue is. When you keep insisting on dismissing the core Palestinian point of view, this conflict will never end.

Edited November 5, 2023 by lina

[DawnC]

34 minutes ago, lina said:

Because this IS the core problem that started all cycle of violence, mistakes and hate from both sides. You can try to convince all the people you want that there are other nuances to focus on, and how "complex" the issue is. When you keep insisting on dismissing the core Palestinian point of view, this conflict will never end.

I never dismissed the Palestinian point of view. I understand their perspective, their hostility, and their desires well enough. It's just that they are not alone. It is actually you (and the Palestinians) who completely disregard the feelings and history of the other party involved. These are people who attempted to assimilate in other nations around the world, only to endure a real holocaust. They also have both emotional and historical connections to that land, and even if you consider it to be bullshit you still fail to realize it is genuine. Yes, I empathize with the Palestinian point of view and believe they have valid grievances. But their perspective does not justify the history of the past 100 years. It doesn't justify engaging in violent acts for 100 years, many time intentionally against civilians, consistently rejecting compromises, initiating a war with the aim of destroying Jewish aspirations, evading the consequences of a lost war, avoiding criticism regarding their lack of interest in the development of their own people, refusing to negotiate, engaging in massacres and terror, supporting irresponsible leadership, or perpetuating refugee status for multiple generations. 

Edited November 5, 2023 by DawnC

[lina]

3 minutes ago, DawnC said:

 It is actually you who completely disregard the feelings and history of one of the parties involved.  

I know both sides made mistakes. But the point is that one side started this cycle by establishing a state on an illegitimate, weak and unsustainable foundation, which will always need to resort to violence to ensure it's survival. This is not good for both the Palestinians and the Israelis. 

[DawnC]

19 minutes ago, lina said:

I know both sides made mistakes. But the point is that one side started this cycle by establishing a state on an illegitimate, weak and unsustainable foundation, which will always need to resort to violence to ensure it's survival. This is not good for both the Palestinians and the Israelis. 

The question of legitimacy is tied to your moral assessment.. I believe that a people striving to return to their historical homeland and establish sovereignty, especially after enduring such cruelty and indifference from the world, is not illegitimate. It does pose challenges and complexities, but I don't find it unwise either. Yes, I do think it is a nuanced issue, even from a moral perspective. And my point is, that regardless of your moral stance, historical decisions from the beginning of this conflict suggest that, as collectives, the Israeli vision has been to coexist peacefully with everyone, while the Palestinian vision has been to live in peace without Israelis and they have been solely focused on that. If Israelis were to abstain from using violence, they would face peril. The opposite is evidently not the case.

[Loveeee]

1 hour ago, DawnC said:

There was a slight Jewish majority (~55%)

In Israel, which I didn't know but even so, going from 10 to 50 % in 30 years then create a state based on that, is simply wrong 

[DawnC]

Just now, Loveeee said:

In Israel, which I didn't know but even so, going from 10 to 50 % in 30 years then create a state based on that, is simply wrong 

 

Maybe, I don't entirely agree. Read what I just wrote to Lina...

[Loveeee]

56 minutes ago, DawnC said:

I believe that a people striving to return to their historical homeland and establish sovereignty,

When Lina used the "Syrian refugees doing the same in Europe" analogy, I did bring up historical connection because it felt wrong

But that doesn't make it right

56 minutes ago, DawnC said:

especially after enduring such cruelty and indifference from the world, is not illegitimate. 

Two wrongs don't make a right 

Edited November 5, 2023 by Loveeee

[Breakingthewall]

2 hours ago, DawnC said:

If Israelis were to abstain from using violence, they would face peril. The opposite is evidently not the case.

23 hours ago, Nivsch said:

 

Maybe Palestinians think that being second-class citizens who can be evicted from their home at any time is a form of danger

[DawnC]

14 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Maybe Palestinians think that being second-class citizens who can be evicted from their home at any time is a form of danger

It is a form of danger. But you're jumping into the middle of the conversation. The conflict could have been avoided entirely, and it could have been resolved on several occasions if they were open to compromise.

[Breakingthewall]

12 minutes ago, DawnC said:

It is a form of danger. But you're jumping into the middle of the conversation. The conflict could have been avoided entirely, and it could have been resolved on several occasions if they were open to compromise.

It is possible, and it is also possible that the extremism that is emerging in Israel with guys like Ben Gvir and Amichai Eliyahu , who practically advocate genocide and ethnic cleansing, are a consequence of 100 years of threat, but the reality is that they exist and they increasingly have more power. I think Israel should be very careful not to become a monster like Nazism. Today he said that dropping an atomic bomb in Gaza is an option, and that no Palestinian is innocent. How many Israeli thinks in that way? Surely not only him

Edited November 5, 2023 by Breakingthewall