Ukraine - Integrating Realpolitik and the Western Perspective

[martins name]

I've long seen truth in both the standard Western perspective and Meirshimer's realpolitik perspective on the war. Finally, I've managed to integrate the best parts of both of them. Personally, I'm a Swede.

First, I affirm the standard Western perspective on justice. Nato doesn't threaten Russia's borders as Russia has nukes and can't be invaded. Nato does however threaten Russia's ability to dominate its neighbors, which is what this conflict is all about. Domination is immoral and unjust, therefore it'd desirable for all nations to have the right to self-determine.

Second, I affirm a realpolitik strategy. In hindsight, letting Ukraine get too close to the West was, as Mearsheimer predicted a decade ago, inevitably going to lead to a Russian invasion. Even if Ukraine wins the inevitable war, Ukrainian cultural and economic independence isn't worth the death toll and economic destruction that it costs. Instead, we should have kept Ukraine at arm's length to prevent the war. Even if the war is completely unjust and immoral on Russia's part, it doesn't change the cost of the war. It's a simple cost-benefit analysis, and the cost outweighed the benefit.
Think of it like Russia is a thug in a dark ally. Eventually, we would like all dark alleys to be safe, but until then, don't walk into one. Even if robbery is immoral by the thug, don't put yourself in that situation.

Before the war started there were 3 options:
1. No war and Ukraine remains culturally dominated by Russia.
2. War and Ukraine wins.
3. War and Russia wins.

The first alternative is no longer available. Now we are left with the second-best option, a Ukrainian victory. This should be accomplished in order to affirm a European order of justice, where aggression is unacceptable. It's dumb that we have taken this fight, but now that we have, it's worth it to win. 

 

[Breakingthewall]

Ukraine is a threat to invade Russia: Crimea, where enormous gas fields have been found and is a strategic point ,In fact, recovering Crimea was in Zelensky's electoral program. Furthermore, 10 years ago there has been a civil war in Ukraine in which pro-Russians fight against kyiv. It must be taken into account that a referendum was held in Crimea in which more than 90% of the population chose the Russian option. The United States has been putting pressure on the area for 15 years, and one of its ambitions was to destroy the gas pipeline. There are recordings of Biden and Nuland saying it. As soon as the war started, the gas pipeline was destroyed. NATO has pushed and provoked this war, and its puppet Zelensky has caused the total devastation of Ukraine and the death of hundreds of thousands of young people.

The USA has used the Ukrainian youth, forcing them to go to a terrible war, to weaken Russia and do business. In the end, Russia will stay with the Donbass, as was inevitable from the beginning, Ukraine will be devastated and Zelensky will be a hero. Oh, and there will be a new breed of Ukrainian millionaires on the Costa del Sol, in Spain

Edited October 30, 2023 by Breakingthewall

[PurpleTree]

1 hour ago, Breakingthewall said:

Ukraine is a threat to invade Russia: Crimea, where enormous gas fields have been found and is a strategic point ,In fact, recovering Crimea was in Zelensky's electoral program. Furthermore, 10 years ago there has been a civil war in Ukraine in which pro-Russians fight against kyiv. It must be taken into account that a referendum was held in Crimea in which more than 90% of the population chose the Russian option. The United States has been putting pressure on the area for 15 years, and one of its ambitions was to destroy the gas pipeline. There are recordings of Biden and Nuland saying it. As soon as the war started, the gas pipeline was destroyed. NATO has pushed and provoked this war, and its puppet Zelensky has caused the total devastation of Ukraine and the death of hundreds of thousands of young people.

The USA has used the Ukrainian youth, forcing them to go to a terrible war, to weaken Russia and do business. In the end, Russia will stay with the Donbass, as was inevitable from the beginning, Ukraine will be devastated and Zelensky will be a hero. Oh, and there will be a new breed of Ukrainian millionaires on the Costa del Sol, in Spain

I think ukrainians want to be closer to the west and not russia.

saying the u.s. did it and zelensky is just a puppet is just not really true. The u.s. couldn‘t have dobe it if th sentiment wasn’t already strong.
Ukrainians aren’t just dumb puppets, they know what they want

[Nemra]

6 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

I think ukrainians want to be closer to the west and not russia.

saying the u.s. did it and zelensky is just a puppet is just not really true. The u.s. couldn‘t have dobe it if th sentiment wasn’t already strong.
Ukrainians aren’t just dumb puppets, they know what they want

It's not easy to see that when you think of yourself as more objective than others.

[PurpleTree]

15 minutes ago, Understander said:

It's not easy to see that when you think of yourself as more objective than others.

I mean the u.s. has done so much shite, latin america supporting right wing dictators etc.

so i understand why people always blame the u.s. but russia is the same and this is more complicated 

[Breakingthewall]

1 hour ago, PurpleTree said:

I think ukrainians want to be closer to the west and not russia.

saying the u.s. did it and zelensky is just a puppet is just not really true. The u.s. couldn‘t have dobe it if th sentiment wasn’t already strong.
Ukrainians aren’t just dumb puppets, they know what they want

The United States has cared about Ukraine only because it has resources. Otherwise they would never be from NATO or the EU. Russia claimed Crimea after a referendum, there was also another referendum in Donetsk and Lugansk, with more than 80% of the votes in favor of Russia, in 1991.

The Nazi Azov army spent 10 years bombing the Donbass and carrying out mafia practices, including a production company. of child pornography, Azov productions. After the the violent expulsion  of Yukachenko (I think it is written like that) the new rulers proposed Stephen Bandera as a national hero, who organized extermination camps for Jews in the Second World War, and encouraged radical nationalism and hatred towards the Russians. The person in charge of that area for the US at that time was Joe Biden.

while the United States armed Ukraine and built bunkers throughout the country. constant threat and pressure towards Russia. When it became clear that Ukraine was going to join NATO, Russia took the initiative.

Imagine that instead of Ukraine it is Mexico , who wants to recover California, and it is the Warsaw Pact that pushes this way

Edited October 30, 2023 by Breakingthewall

[Nemra]

@PurpleTree I was agreeing with you.

[PurpleTree]

10 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

The United States has cared about Ukraine only because it has resources. Otherwise they would never be from NATO or the EU. Russia claimed Crimea after a referendum, there was also another referendum in Donetsk and Lugansk, with more than 80% of the votes in favor of Russia, in 1991.

The Nazi Azov army spent 10 years bombing the Donbass and carrying out mafia practices, including a production company. of child pornography, Azov productions. After the coup d'état that overthrew Yukachenko (I think it is written like that) the new rulers proposed Stephen Bandera as a national hero, who organized extermination camps for Jews in the Second World War, and encouraged radical nationalism and hatred towards the Russians.

while the United States armed Ukraine and built bunkers throughout the country. constant threat and pressure towards Russia. When it became clear that Ukraine was going to join NATO, Russia took the initiative.

Imagine that instead of Ukraine it is Mexico , who wants to recover California, and it is the Warsaw Pact that pushes this way

Let‘s agree to disagree

imo it’s mostly russias fault that countries and people especially liberal want to move away from them

it‘s not just ukraine also armenia, belarus, kazakhstan etc

 

about the azov brigade i don’t know enough about it to comment on it

Edited October 30, 2023 by PurpleTree

[Breakingthewall]

8 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

Let‘s agree to disagree

imo it’s mostly russias fault that countries and people especially liberal want to move away from them

 

about the azov brigade i don’t know enough about it to comment on it

In Crimea and Dombass, a referendum was held with very high participation where the results were in favor of Russia by more than 80%. 

Russia never wanted Ukraine, just Crimea, and now Donbass

[PurpleTree]

7 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

In Crimea and Dombass, a referendum was held with very high participation where the results were in favor of Russia by more than 80%. 

Russia never wanted Ukraine, just Crimea, and now Donbass

Those referendums don’t seem trustworthy 

furthermore, do you think russia would accept it if dagestan or vladivostok etc. wanted to split of from russia with a referendum?

[Breakingthewall]

1 minute ago, PurpleTree said:

Those referendums don’t seem trustworthy 

furthermore, do you think russia would accept it if dagestan or vladivostok etc. wanted to split of from russia with a referendum?

 

They say it is illegal because Ukraine does not admit it, regardless of the fact that Crimea is Russian, speaks Russian and its entire population votes in favor of annexation to Russia, the same as in Donbass.

Btw, The first thing that NATO did in this war was to destroy the Nord Stream, a magnificent work of engineering that provided gas to Germany, now Germany is immersed in a crisis, and has to buy much more expensive gas, much of it from the US. . As Victoria Nuland said in a telephone conversation that was recorded and broadcast, fuck Europe. and also fuck Ukraine and let half a million young people die so that the horrible greedy psychopaths can do their business.

[PurpleTree]

3 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

 

They say it is illegal because Ukraine does not admit it, regardless of the fact that Crimea is Russian, speaks Russian and its entire population votes in favor of annexation to Russia, the same as in Donbass.

Btw, The first thing that NATO did in this war was to destroy the Nord Stream, a magnificent work of engineering that provided gas to Germany, now Germany is immersed in a crisis, and has to buy much more expensive gas, much of it from the US. . As Victoria Nuland said in a telephone conversation that was recorded and broadcast, fuck Europe. and also fuck Ukraine and let half a million young people die so that the horrible greedy psychopaths can do their business.

Bro you are very pro russia

do you have a putin poster on your wall? ☺️

it‘s unclear who destroyed nord stream, there are investigations

 

[Breakingthewall]

19 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

furthermore, do you think russia would accept it if dagestan or vladivostok etc. wanted to split of from russia with a referendum?

Imagine that the United States has a territorial conflict with Mexico and Russia sends weapons indefinitely to Mexico to make the conflict last forever, hundreds of thousands die, the area impoverishes, while Russian investment funds monopolize the farmland, whose sale before It was prohibited by constitution, and they destroy the gas supply routes from the US to South America so they can supply it themselves.

Edited October 30, 2023 by Breakingthewall

[Breakingthewall]

3 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

Bro you are very pro russia

do you have a putin poster on your wall? ☺️

it‘s unclear who destroyed nord stream, there are investigations

 

I'm not pro anyone, it's absolutely obvious. Let's see, if the Russians have built the Nord Stream, spending billions, who do you think destroyed it? themselves? it's absolutely obvious, how could be the slightest doubt? people are crazy.

[PurpleTree]

4 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Imagine that the United States has a territorial conflict with Mexico and Russia sends weapons indefinitely to Mexico to make the conflict last forever, hundreds of thousands die, the area impoverishes, while Russian investment funds monopolize the farmland, whose sale before It was prohibited by construction, and they destroy the gas supply routes from the US to South America so they can supply it themselves.

well if mexicans want that then they can ask russia for weapons. But unlike ukraine, armenia, many ppl in belarus etc want to get the f away from russia and putler. Mexico doesn’t want that so it’s a silly argument

[Breakingthewall]

 

5 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

Mexico doesn’t want that so it’s a silly argument

Was just an example, I know that mexico is not going to do that

 

Anyway this war is going to change the balance of the world. Russia will win, as is inevitable from the beginning, and will also have an army equipped and tested in real combat, as real as the Second World War, and backed by nukes. China and India will ally with Russia, and a challenge will occur. The US is very brave sending its Ukrainian soldiers to death without a single American dying, but it would never dare to have a real war. He will not accept the challenge, he will be relegated. it is unavoidable. US has behaved like a horrible psychopathic vampire thirsty for profits, and has crossed the limits. His empire is ending, let's hope he knows how to accept it without too much violence.

[PurpleTree]

2 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

 

Was just an example, I know that mexico is not going to do that

 

Anyway this war is going to change the balance of the world. Russia will win, as is inevitable from the beginning, and will also have an army equipped and tested in real combat, as real as the Second World War, and backed by nukes. China and India will ally with Russia, and a challenge will occur. The US is very brave sending its Ukrainian soldiers to death without a single American dying, but it would never dare to have a real war. He will not accept the challenge, he will be relegated. it is unavoidable. US has behaved like a horrible psychopathic vampire thirsty for profits, and has crossed the limits. His empire is ending, let's hope he knows how to accept it without too much violence.

Well that’s one possible future.

in my future russia will become smaller and smaller in the coming decades. Armenia, belarus, ukraine, kazakh etc move away from russias sphere of influence. Russians don‘t have enough children so that‘s anothr huge issue for them. Chine will take aeay vladivostok from russia at sone point. Dagestan and others will bounce. 

[martins name]

1 minute ago, PurpleTree said:

it‘s unclear who destroyed nord stream, there are investigations

It was America, Biden said they would do it and did it. Also, there is good investigative reporting from Seymour Hersh further supporting the claim. America shouldn't have the power to do this with impunity but, speaking as a European who was affected by it, I'm glad they did. Should have been done by the Germans themselves.

 

2 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

Ukraine is a threat to invade Russia

6000 nuclear warheads say otherwise.

36 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Russia never wanted Ukraine, just Crimea, and now Donbass

They tried to invade Kyiv at the start of the war. It just didn't work. That's not taking a chunk out of a country.

3 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

It must be taken into account that a referendum was held in Crimea in which more than 90% of the population chose the Russian option.

There was no Russian option. There were options for independence, to become an in-between for Russia and Ukraine. An option for people to have dual citizenship. They wanted independence, not to be ruled by Russia. 

1 hour ago, Breakingthewall said:

there was also another referendum in Donetsk and Lugansk, with more than 80% of the votes in favor of Russia, in 1991.

1991 was the year when Ukraine voted to become an independent country with popular support in every region of the country including Crimea, Donetsk, and Lugansk.

Maybe you are referring to 2014?
"Independent observers reported many irregularities and the results of the separatist referendums were not officially recognized by any government, including those of Ukraine, the United States, and the countries of the European Union." -Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Donbas_status_referendums
Plus this happened while Russia supplied weapons to separatists and ran a disinformation campaign in the region.  Referendums after such interference should not be legitimate even if the vote counting wasn't dubious.
 

53 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Imagine that the United States has a territorial conflict with Mexico and Russia sends weapons indefinitely to Mexico to make the conflict last forever

This would be justice if America breaks international law and aggresses against Mexico.

If you get robbed it's a robbery not a dispute over the ownership of your wallet.

The Yankees are animals I agree with that, but so is Russia. In this case, I think America is right in supporting Ukraine like a broken clock is right twice a day. I want a strong and independent Europe that works with both powers to the extent that it's healthy. Getting free military defense in the form of NATO is beneficial for Europe and much appreciated.

I think you are gravely overestimating the extent to which America is pulling Ukraine's strings. It's an independent nation that stood up for its own freedom when everyone else including America thought they would roll over.

Ukraine wanted to join the West and wasn't forced to. Even tho I think the request should have been denied for the reason I explained in the post.


From the many inaccuracies in what you have written, I question the quality of your information sources.

[Breakingthewall]

38 minutes ago, martins name said:

From the many inaccuracies in what you have written, I question the quality of your information sources.

I write from memory, maybe I should look at the dates before writing them maybe it seems very appropriate to you to say that since I was wrong on a date my arguments are not valid, but this is not a debate, it is an attempt to understand 

If the problem is that the referendum was falsified, it could have been repeated with international observers. Instead, the Azov Battalion was sent to fight, a Nazi army with flags with modified swastikas commanded by a former Nazi football ultra leader of Dynamo Kiev,

 Do you think that Germany itself should have destroyed the Nord Stream? Maybe you think it's an evil pipe?

Ukraine is one of the most corrupt countries in the world. There is a part of Ukraine that wants to be far from Russia and another part close. The US has pushed the change of government and the anti-Russian faction and armed it. He has pressed day after day and has supported the threat of recovering Crimea. has introduced huge quantities of weapons over many years into Ukraine. When the conflict has finally begun, it supports Ukraine with unlimited weapons, causing the total destruction of the country and the collapse of the European economy, especially the German, knowing that Russia is going to maintain the Dombass. The level of lying that has occurred in this conflict is another level, it is taking people for being retarded. 

Do you remember when Biden came to power, how quickly he said that Putin was a murderer and started putting pressure? It's obvious what was on his agenda. 

Edited October 30, 2023 by Breakingthewall

[martins name]

2 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

Do you think that Germany itself should have destroyed the Nord Stream?

Rather shut it off but it doesn't matter. It shouldn't be used. Don't fund the enemy. Economic warfare.

2 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

maybe it seems very appropriate to you to say that since I was wrong on a date my arguments are not valid

I didn't say or mean that. I got confused and thought I might have missed a referendum.

2 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

If the problem is that the referendum was falsified, it could have been repeated with international observers.

Russian interference was the main issue.

Just watch this.

2 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

 

2 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

Ukraine is one of the most corrupt countries in the world.

Yes, almost as corrupt as Russia, but not quite.

2 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

Do you remember when Biden came to power, how quickly he said that Putin was a murderer and started putting pressure? It's obvious what was on his agenda. 

I don't know about the pressure you are talking of but he is a murderer who assassinates his political opponents. That's just facts. Also he constantly interfere in western elections with his troll farms and invades countries. Putin is a clear antagonist. Telling the truth about it is hardly escalatory.

2 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

The US has pushed the change of government and the anti-Russian faction and armed it. He has pressed day after day and has supported the threat of recovering Crimea. has introduced

Admittedly I don't know how much America has meddeled in Ukrainian politics. Sources I trust say it's way overblown but idk. Do you have sources or any good yt vids preferably I can check out?

2 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

collapse of the European economy, especially the German,

Europeans are greatful for America's help in the conflict. I haven't heard any anti American sentiment on this conflict from Europeans.