My Thoughts On War In Ghaza/Israel

[Mesopotamian]

To start with, America is an expansionist nation, and establishing Israel was a normal thing to do. I don't envy Americans as some of them might feel the guilt for their state helping a political movement (the zionist) gain ground in the historical land of Palestine, however, an average American should be OK with that. America has always been and founded upon a principle of taking land Americans need to be OK with that! It's a part of progress of human civilization sort of after all. Otherwise, I feel if any American is against this approach, they can denounce their citizenship perhaps be one option. 

Israili people on the other hand are being used to just stay there, and their dreams and aspirations of a homeland is been used in order to sustain this geo-political entity that's called the state of Israel. 

As for Arabs, they're wounded, butt-hurt people, who were indoctrinated from school that Arab nation is one of the greatest on earth, and they now wake up on reality that Arab civilization is no longer ruling the four corners of the world, and therefore, they bring morality into the scene and they are asking for fairness to be achieved in an international system that is not been setup on the basis of fairness for everybody, and more over, they have no say in it, and they're not wanting to engage or reform it, but just foolishly asking for fairness and a state for Palestenians Muslims, or else, they're going to support anyone who wants to carry weapons, and sabotage and go crazy just in the name of stupid morality. 

My advice to people, try not to bring morality into the scene! it's stupid and foolish that those who seek justice, start engaging with killing and destroying from both sides! but indeed, it's just ego, it's "either what I want, or I am going to kill and sabotage"

Edited October 30, 2023 by Mesopotamian

[DawnC]

It's not true that America was behind the establishment of Israel. The U.S. government wasn't pro-Zionist at all around '48, quite the contrary. The special relationship between Israel and the US started around the '60s. That's when America shifted from believing it was the entire Arab world vs tiny Israel, to realizing that the Arab world is not a single entity, and thus, Israel could actually be a strategic asset.

The viewpoint that Israel is a project of the US is actually rooted in a religious Islamic perspective. It might represent current events regarding Israeli assistance and culture that are more related to America, but historically, it is simply not true.

Edited October 30, 2023 by DawnC

[Mesopotamian]

@DawnC I am not sure why it does matter when this bond has been forged. Also like there's a clear similarity between the establishment of Israel and the establishment of the USA was what I am trying to refer to. 

[DawnC]

2 hours ago, Mesopotamian said:

"To start with, America is an expansionist nation, and establishing Israel was a normal thing to do. "

"Israili people on the other hand are being used to just stay there, and their dreams and aspirations of a homeland is been used in order to sustain this geo-political entity that's called the state of Israel. "

@Mesopotamian I assumed you were implying that Israel is either a US project or is entirely reliant on the US based on what you wrote. It matters because it influences your analysis of the issue, given that you may not have a complete understanding of the nature of the bilateral relationship between Israel and the US. 

 

Edited October 30, 2023 by DawnC

[Mesopotamian]

24 minutes ago, DawnC said:

@Mesopotamian I assumed you were implying that Israel is either a US project or is entirely reliant on the US based on what you wrote. It matters because it influences your analysis of the issue, given that you may not have a complete understanding of the nature of the bilateral relationship between Israel and the US. 

 

Do you mean what could that be translated to in the future? Cuz from what i see it, America will always be supportive to Israel, even if there's going to be genocide for civilians. And I don't condemn that, this is just how it is.

In my mind, bond is created, and will always be strong and favor the continuation of Israel, cuz remember the other party wants a complete  Annihilation for Israel. 

[DawnC]

1 minute ago, Mesopotamian said:

Do you mean what could that be translated to in the future? Cuz from what i see it, America will always be supportive to Israel, even if there's going to be genocide for civilians. And I don't condemn that, this is just how it is.

In my mind, bond is created, and will always be strong and favor the continuation of Israel, cuz remember the other party wants a complete  Annihilation for Israel. 

I too don't foresee a shift in the nature of this relationship in the foreseeable future. Primarily because the strategic interests of the US and Israel are highly aligned, and the current culture similarity. I think you are exaggerating the idea of unconditional US support. If Israel were to become involved in a genocide (though such a scenario is highly unlikely), it is probable that Americans would withdraw their support.

[sholomar]

I tend to be neutral aside from supporting higher spiral dynamics stages (when it makes sense) and opposing dictatorships. I used to believe in not meddling in foreign affairs but if we don't China will and they are our main adversary, partnering with other autocratic nations. Last think we want is a rise of autocracy and authoritarianism globally.

As for Israel, they are there and not going anywhere. There's no easy answer to this issue.  They are more democratic than their neighbors but I dont really know the internal politics of the two so I remain mostly neutral. I understand Israel was created in 1948 as part of the Balfour declaration.

Edited October 30, 2023 by sholomar

[Mesopotamian]

14 hours ago, sholomar said:

I tend to be neutral aside from supporting higher spiral dynamics stages (when it makes sense) and opposing dictatorships. I used to believe in not meddling in foreign affairs but if we don't China will and they are our main adversary, partnering with other autocratic nations. Last think we want is a rise of autocracy and authoritarianism globally.

I do like your opinion here, and this is the correct path to go!

[zazen]

''I see people saying the US gets nothing out of its alliance with Israel and it's all one way, which is inaccurate. The interests of the US empire are massively advanced by having a nuclear-armed intelligence proxy in a strategically crucial resource-rich region constantly inflicting violence and chaos on non-US-aligned nations.

Perhaps more importantly, Israel's existence serves as the ultimate argument against ever removing US troops from the middle east, which it doesn't want to do because of its interest in controlling the world's fossil fuel supply. As Joe Biden said, "If Israel didn't exist, we would have to invent it." People often point to Israel's aggressive lobbying efforts in Washington to argue that the alliance is not mutually beneficial, but lobbying is just one of the adhesives which holds an unofficial, unacknowledged empire together.

You may be certain that if Washington didn't want Israel manipulating US politics in its own interests, it wouldn't be happening; the US government has plenty of laws at its disposal to shut that down if it wants. Israel has no qualms about pushing the US to give it the most it can get for the smallest possible return because it understands, quite correctly, that in the end Israel is still just an ally of convenience and the US will throw it under the bus the moment it's in the empire's interests to do so.

Israel has an extensive history of aligning with hostile and unpredictable powers to advance its own interests, like the anti-semitic Christian Zionists and supporting the rise of Hamas. So the two power structures use each other for whatever they can get in exchange, and because of the way Israel was set up from the beginning their interests are aligned far more often than not.''

[Breakingthewall]

@zazen good analysis, but it's also an important factor of that alliance the large number of powerful Jews in the US.

Edited October 31, 2023 by Breakingthewall

[Breakingthewall]

On 30/10/2023 at 6:30 AM, Mesopotamian said:

To start with, America is an expansionist nation,

I don't think US is expansionist, it would be controller. It wants to have control over the movements that occur in the world and that are favorable to it. It is a very large and enormously rich country, and it wants to stay that way, or more so. This is not easy, in fact it is extremely difficult. At any moment a serious crisis can occur and you don't know how deep it can become. It's a very delicate balance, and if you fall, it can mean war and chaos. To avoid this, and remain rich and powerful, US controls, manipulates, creates instability. He prefers that others be the ones who fall

[Twentyfirst]

@Mesopotamian What do you mean Arab civilization is no longer ruling? The Saudi Prince said that by 30 years the Middle East will be the new Europe. With the decline of the West this wouldn't be a surprise