Free Palestine? No thanks.

[Gennadiy1981]

5 hours ago, Emerald said:

Obviously Hamas is committing war crimes. They're terrorists. And I'm not justifying anything Hamas has done. If anyone is doing that, they're very out of alignment with truth and love.

But once again, this is another attempt to run away from the truth...

The Israeli government is committing war crimes and enacting collective punishment against Palestinian civilians in the Gaza Strip... most of whom are under that age of 15.

Can you acknowledge that?

@Emerald I am not here to convince you but I will answer this for other people who are unsure on this forum since your mind is set. This is not a war against Hamas, it’s just a small terror cell and nothing else of it, this is a Jewish Arab war, we are fighting against the Arabs.

You as a west fail or refuse to u understand the conflict. The Arabs view entire Israel as a settlement, the view Tel Avi, and Haifa and Beer Sheba as occupied territory. I understand that and I respect that. I understand the Arabs, the Arabs understand me,  either of us can understand you. It’s an ideological warfare and it’s war against ethnicities. That’s why USA understands and does not cal it war crime. Because the war is fought against people, it’s the people who elect leadership. Today they are Hamas, tomorrow they are someone else, it’s all semantics. You don’t seem to get it, it’s one land for one people, it’s either one or the other, there is no such thing as two. One nation needs to leave its plain and simple. The problem is we have no where to go, Arabs have 21 more states to go, they have plenty of uninhabited land, until that happens you will have blood shed on both sides.

But my words fall on deaf years, seems the prophecy in the Bible was right, I guess those prophets knew all along what will happen, I used to laugh at biblical prophets back then, but oh boy, they are so right, thank God, we will have a happy ending after all.

[Lila9]

Palestinians were asked when Palestine was established:

 

[Gennadiy1981]

@Lila9 I am laughing my ass out loud. Anyways my point exactly. See you know the truth and those who should know the truth. Try to explain to an antisemite this. They won’t listen anyways.

You know I always wonder what would happen if Emperor Hadrian would never rename Judea to Palestine and on all political maps there would be Judea and throughout centuries it would be Judea and so on, today we would be fighting with Judean terrorists and everyone on this forum would be accusing us of hating people of Judea. It would be Israel vs Judea.

But what about Palestinian names of cities like Nabulus? That’s a good one?

Well the city is called Schehem, it’s in a Bible. The Romans rename most of the cities and they always assigned their favorite city Naples to every place they conquered. In Latin Naples is called Napulus, the Arab language does not have soft P in the middle so it became Nabulus. So if anyone should have claims to that city, it should be Italians. 

Edited November 5, 2023 by Gennadiy1981

[AerisVahnEphelia]

what about fuck all religions and fuck ethno states ? ( and all states )

if it was up to me, I would put everyone that say I m into this pill of trash ( pile of trash = religions and sacred books ) , including buddhist, including atheist, including materialists ) I would put them all on the same island, then nuke it to the petroil strata so that you can go where you belong, in the dust with the dinosaurs.

Maybe we will start on sane base, or we can build love and unity without attachment to narratives.

I might not be doing that, but it's fun to imagine.

I guess have too much hope for humanity, but we might keep going on being pathetics and keep turning every fucking idea in town into a set of stones and call this pile of fucking pile of stones the truth or god.

We are so far from getting collective enlightment.

Our best bet is we reach AGI, AGI decide to tame humanity and force it into Love and understanding at the light level.

Every people that identify with a tribe, will be scanned by the AGI and classified as having potential for warmongering, and she will put you in a trashbin and burn your corpse as a fuel.

In fact that's exactly what will happen, so start now : get rid of your identity and religion and ethnicity or else, you're setting your futur self to be dismantled and ripped off by our AGI god lord.

You cannot tcheat the AGI lord, she will know if your heart is pure or evil.

Edited November 5, 2023 by AerisVahnEphelia

[Gennadiy1981]

Thank you @AerisVahnEphelia if you would not volunteer to say what you did, I would actually pay you to say what you did.

To all, see this is perfect example to what happens to those who run out of arguments. I think it’s beautiful what she said to say the least. This is foundation of our consciousness. Now let’s pick up from here.

Edited November 5, 2023 by Gennadiy1981

[Lila9]

31 minutes ago, Gennadiy1981 said:

I am laughing my ass out loud. Anyways my point exactly. See you know the truth and those who should know the truth. Try to explain to an antisemite this. They won’t listen anyways.

That's really funny, I see all these protestors for freedom for Palestine having no clue about what they protesting about. All they know is to throw words that sounds bad to the westerns ears, like occupation and operssion and blame Israel for its mere existence.

37 minutes ago, Gennadiy1981 said:

You know I always wonder what would happen if Emperor Hadrian would never rename Judea to Palestine and on all political maps there would be Judea and throughout centuries it would be Judea and so on, today we would be fighting with Judean terrorists and everyone on this forum would be accusing us of hating people of Judea. It would be Israel vs Judea.

This guy who renamed Judea to Palestine had no clue what mess he created 😂

If the name Judea wasn't changed, perhaps it was eaiser to convince the world about the ancient relation of Jews to this land.

[Lila9]

35 minutes ago, AerisVahnEphelia said:

In fact that's exactly what will happen, so start now : get rid of your identity and religion and ethnicity or else, you're setting your futur self to be dismantled and ripped off by our AGI god lord.

One day we will be at that place collectively, but it wouldn't happen immediately and by any force or persuasion. It happens gradually every single day, we are constantly moving to there as a human collective, not necessarily linearly.

[zazen]

Speaking on Zionism 

 

[Gennadiy1981]

You want to hear real Rabbi speaks on Judaism and Zionism, then hear this and let me know what you think and your opinion. 

 

[zazen]

@Gennadiy1981 Thanks will give it a listen.

https://news.sky.com/story/amp/netanyahu-suspends-israeli-minister-for-saying-dropping-nuclear-bomb-on-gaza-one-of-the-possibilities-13001055

From Twitter : So people understand where we are. An Israeli cabinet minister called for dropping a nuclear bomb in Gaza. He got a pat in the back from the Prime Minister. His comments were carefully ignored in the global debate.

In the meantime the revenge impulse is so strong it even overrides Israel’s long-established policy of not publicly admitting it has nukes.

[Nivsch]

@zazen just a clown from a tiny radical party.

[Emerald]

15 hours ago, Gennadiy1981 said:

@Emerald I am not here to convince you but I will answer this for other people who are unsure on this forum since your mind is set. This is not a war against Hamas, it’s just a small terror cell and nothing else of it, this is a Jewish Arab war, we are fighting against the Arabs.

You as a west fail or refuse to u understand the conflict. The Arabs view entire Israel as a settlement, the view Tel Avi, and Haifa and Beer Sheba as occupied territory. I understand that and I respect that. I understand the Arabs, the Arabs understand me,  either of us can understand you. It’s an ideological warfare and it’s war against ethnicities. That’s why USA understands and does not cal it war crime. Because the war is fought against people, it’s the people who elect leadership. Today they are Hamas, tomorrow they are someone else, it’s all semantics. You don’t seem to get it, it’s one land for one people, it’s either one or the other, there is no such thing as two. One nation needs to leave its plain and simple. The problem is we have no where to go, Arabs have 21 more states to go, they have plenty of uninhabited land, until that happens you will have blood shed on both sides.

But my words fall on deaf years, seems the prophecy in the Bible was right, I guess those prophets knew all along what will happen, I used to laugh at biblical prophets back then, but oh boy, they are so right, thank God, we will have a happy ending after all.

That is the nature of an ethnostate to create a zero sum game between the group in power and groups labelled as other.

Whichever group shares the ethnic identity that's tied to the national identity will always do its best to remove anyone from the ethnostate that doesn't share the ethno-nationalist identity.

That's why I disagree with the existence of ethnostates because it always leads to things like oppression and genocide.

And people who become highly identified with the collective identity of being from (fill in the blank) nationality and (fill in the blank) ethnicity will not be able to see the problems with their government because the individual ego gets wrapped into the collective ego.

So, someone who identifies strongly with being a member of an ethnostate is not going to recognize the problems because someone criticizing the state will feel similar to someone criticizing themselves as an individual.

They get too close to see the problems. Sometimes it's better to see things from afar and with beginner's eyes... like in the story of the Emporer's new clothes.

From what you said above, you seem to take for granted that the land cannot be shared by people who happen to share two different ethnic backgrounds. But other places that have both Arab and Jewish populations are not having the issues that are happening in Israel. Those issues are coming up because Israel was founded as a colonial ethnostate and began ousting the people that already lived there from their homes.

Regarding Israel, I see 3 ways things can go down...

1. Transform Israel from being an ethnostate to being a state that doesn't have a set collective ethnic identity where people from different backgrounds can live together in an integrated way (aka A one-state solution)
2. Keep Israel as an ethnostate but establish Gaza as a separate sovereign state where Palestinians can be free from colonization (aka A two-state solution)
3. Israel remains an ethnostate and the IDF removes the Palestinian population entirely from Israel through exile or genocide.

And right now, it seems very clear to me that option 3 is the favored option of the powers that be. 

[Emerald]

21 hours ago, Lila9 said:

I acknowledge that innocent civilians being killed in Gaza and it's heartbreaking.

Do Israel has the intention of killing innocents as a collective punishment? I don't know and I don't think so because if they did that they wouldn't bother to request Palestinians to evacuate. 

They ordered over a million people to evacuate them to evacuate on a very short notice with almost no resources to evacuate with. They cut off the vast majority of supplies from coming in.

Occam's Razor here is that Israel has to at least make it look like they're complying with international law and trying to avoid killing civilians and just going after Hamas. 

Here's an article from Human Rights Watch about the evacuation... https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/10/16/why-israels-gaza-evacuation-order-so-alarming

[Nivsch]

30 minutes ago, Emerald said:

They ordered over a million people to evacuate them to evacuate on a very short notice with almost no resources to evacuate with. They cut off the vast majority of supplies from coming in.

Occam's Razor here is that Israel has to at least make it look like they're complying with international law and trying to avoid killing civilians and just going after Hamas. 

Here's an article from Human Rights Watch about the evacuation... https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/10/16/why-israels-gaza-evacuation-order-so-alarming

The problem is that 240 of our citizens (among them children and elderly) are now hostages by hamas and their physical and psychological nightmare (with all the respect to the gazaian hard situation) is ×100 more horrific. Every day that passes, their conditions are getting worse. Thats why Israel has a great time limit to put this physical pressure on hamas as fast as possible. The diplomatic ways alone have already been tried and failed.

Edited November 6, 2023 by Nivsch

[Emerald]

21 hours ago, Nivsch said:

@Emerald Ok sounds fair to me and I understand you. The right wing here is problematic in many ways mostly in the expansion of the settlements. 

About ousting people from the place they were live in can you explain more specifically what do you mean? What cases has disturbed you the most?

And about the power imbalance?

There was a video that I watched years ago of a family that had just been kicked out of their home and they were standing on the street outside of it with the mother and children crying as it was being bulldozed. The suffering in that video really struck me.

But there are tons of videos of Palestinian being kicked out of their homes and their homes being demolished.

Then, there were the some images that I ran across about 10 years ago of dead and badly maimed Palestinian children after an Israeli air strike. The vast majority of the dead from that airstrike were children. So, that was probably the most disturbing.

And as an American, I always found it just as disturbing that the American government is supplying these weapons and turning a blind eye to the suffering.

And now there are videos circulating around of parents grieving their recently killed children and basically carrying around their children's dead and bloody bodies as they attempt to evacuate the rest of their family.

But the power imbalance comes from Israel being a colonial project. That's where a group comes in and marginalizes the population that already lives in the area and basically takes over.

At the time Israel was founded, colonialism wasn't really seen as a bad thing in the general populace. So, they clearly stated it was a colonial project and sought the advice of other colonial powers in the establishment of Israel.

The idea back then was that colonialism was good because it was framed as a more civilized people bringing civilization to a less civilized people. 

But right now, most people realize that colonialism is harmful. So, currently there's a lot of propaganda to frame Israel as a decolonization project to oust Palestinian colonizers.

But it was always intended as a colonial project. And that's always going to give the colonizers significantly more power than the colonized.

[Emerald]

3 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

The problem is that 240 of our citizens (among them children and elderly) are now hostages by hamas and their nightmare (with all the respect to the gazaian hard situation) is ×100 more horrific. Every day that passes, their conditions are getting worse. Thats why Israel has a great time limit to put this physical pressure on hamas as fast as possible. The diplomatic ways alone have already been tried and failed.

I'm not suggesting using diplomacy with Hamas. That wouldn't work. The IDF should go after Hamas... and do so with significantly more precision.

But the actions of the Israeli government don't convey to me an urgency to free hostages.

It conveys to me that they're using the hostage situation to justify killing innocent civilians and give a rationalization for why destroying half of Gaza and having a 95%+ civilian death toll is okay.

It seems very evident to me that the real goal of the Israeli government is to get rid of Palestinians, and going after Hamas gives a smokescreen of plausible deniability that allows them to get rid of lots of Palestinians in a way that they can avoid scrutiny and avoid being seen as breeching international law.

[zazen]

31 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

The problem is that 240 of our citizens (among them children and elderly) are now hostages by hamas and their physical and psychological nightmare (with all the respect to the gazaian hard situation) is ×100 more horrific. Every day that passes, their conditions are getting worse. Thats why Israel has a great time limit to put this physical pressure on hamas as fast as possible. The diplomatic ways alone have already been tried and failed.

Why did Israel deny the 50 hostages Hamas offered? Why is Israel bombing complete blocks if they care about the hostages? 

 

@Emerald  Very well said. A nice phrase I like to keep in mind  - marginalisation leads to radicalisation. 

Similar problem with the Pakistan and India partition that the British facilitated - Pakistan was created as a state for the muslim population of India. That event displaced 15 million roughly and up to 2 million dead. Labels and identities confine you the the actions that are associated to only them, and creating state's based on narrower identities will naturally end up being more exclusive to those outside of that identity.

Muslims and Jews lived peacefully in the Palestine region for 100's of years, but once the label of Zionism came in, that corrupted the psyche and actions up to this day. 

Edited November 6, 2023 by zazen

[Nivsch]

57 minutes ago, Emerald said:

I'm not suggesting using diplomacy with Hamas. That wouldn't work. The IDF should go after Hamas... and do so with significantly more precision.

But the actions of the Israeli government don't convey to me an urgency to free hostages.

It conveys to me that they're using the hostage situation to justify killing innocent civilians and give a rationalization for why destroying half of Gaza and having a 95%+ civilian death toll is okay.

It seems very evident to me that the real goal of the Israeli government is to get rid of Palestinians, and going after Hamas gives a smokescreen of plausible deniability that allows them to get rid of lots of Palestinians in a way that they can avoid scrutiny and avoid being seen as breeching international law.

It won't be fair to say that Israel always does the perfect efforts to prevent civilians casualties and cannot be critisized and forced to be improved, so your critisizm is valid and understandable and has its place.

At the same time, when we see how Israel reacted during previous operations is Gaza (from 2009 to 2021) we see that Israel military used warning and surgical tactics that honestly we can't see in any other military in the world. When it calm, this is as surgical as possible.

When in war and given that time pressure, the number of terror targets to attack (up until now ~10,000 terror targets has been attacked), and the manipulative strategic of hamas, the chances of mistakes are sky rocketing.

What needs to be understood is that the whole strategic of hamas and what it does all day long (because it knows IDF is stronger) is to internalize itself as deep as possible between the civilians and make this gordian knot as tight as possible. This is its #1 tactic and this is crucial for it to survive. And it uses every manipulation in the book to ensure that. The world just doesn't really understand this and fails to read the game board properly.

Edited November 6, 2023 by Nivsch

[Lila9]

9 hours ago, Emerald said:

They ordered over a million people to evacuate them to evacuate on a very short notice with almost no resources to evacuate with. They cut off the vast majority of supplies from coming in.

Occam's Razor here is that Israel has to at least make it look like they're complying with international law and trying to avoid killing civilians and just going after Hamas. 

Here's an article from Human Rights Watch about the evacuation... https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/10/16/why-israels-gaza-evacuation-order-so-alarming

Yes, I definitely see that there is a humanitarian crisis in Gaza.

I'm concerned that this article doesn't emphasize that Hamas is hiding among civilians, including in the Al Shifa hospital mentioned, which houses 9,000 patients. There are tunnels, arsenals, and control rooms beneath the hospital and within it.

The fact that it hasn't been attacked by the IDF yet probably indicates that the IDF is likely working on a plan to eliminate the Hamas presence there while causing as little harm to innocent civilians as possible.

Additionally, the article doesn't mention Hamas's blockade of escape routes or how they waited for people who evacuated and either killed them or sent them back to the north of Gaza.

This article also fails to address why, to this day, Gaza Strip, which is not occupied by Israel, still relies on electricity, water, and fuel from Israel, despite the substantial amount of money invested in Gaza and the billions held by its leadership. These resources could be used to permanently resolve these issues without dependence on Israel, instead of purchasing weapons to attack innocent Israeli civilians and maintain the conflict. The article only focuses on Israel's role in temporary, due to the attack, not supplying these resources, which is often taken for granted, as Israel is not obligated to provide them. 

It seems that this article doesn't acknowledge Hamas's war crimes against the Palestinian people, and I'm concerned that they may be biased. This Human Rights Watch organization is known as anti-Israeli organization who tends to spread pro-palestinian propaganda.

Human Rights Watch express their concern that Israel is bombing innocent civilians and not solely targeting Hamas. While this is a legitimate concern given their role, it doesn't necessarily reflect how the Israeli army is actually operating.

In your opinion, what can Israel do to eliminate Hamas in Gaza while protecting civilians, considering the circumstances of Hamas locating themselves among civilians?

Do you believe it's possible or realistic to achieve zero civilian deaths in such an operation?

If not, how many deaths of innocent civilians can be expected in such an operation, given that the IDF is very careful and does its best to prevent them?

[Gennadiy1981]

10 hours ago, Emerald said:

That is the nature of an ethnostate to create a zero sum game between the group in power and groups labelled as other.

Whichever group shares the ethnic identity that's tied to the national identity will always do its best to remove anyone from the ethnostate that doesn't share the ethno-nationalist identity.

That's why I disagree with the existence of ethnostates because it always leads to things like oppression and genocide.

And people who become highly identified with the collective identity of being from (fill in the blank) nationality and (fill in the blank) ethnicity will not be able to see the problems with their government because the individual ego gets wrapped into the collective ego.

So, someone who identifies strongly with being a member of an ethnostate is not going to recognize the problems because someone criticizing the state will feel similar to someone criticizing themselves as an individual.

They get too close to see the problems. Sometimes it's better to see things from afar and with beginner's eyes... like in the story of the Emporer's new clothes.

From what you said above, you seem to take for granted that the land cannot be shared by people who happen to share two different ethnic backgrounds. But other places that have both Arab and Jewish populations are not having the issues that are happening in Israel. Those issues are coming up because Israel was founded as a colonial ethnostate and began ousting the people that already lived there from their homes.

Regarding Israel, I see 3 ways things can go down...

1. Transform Israel from being an ethnostate to being a state that doesn't have a set collective ethnic identity where people from different backgrounds can live together in an integrated way (aka A one-state solution)
2. Keep Israel as an ethnostate but establish Gaza as a separate sovereign state where Palestinians can be free from colonization (aka A two-state solution)
3. Israel remains an ethnostate and the IDF removes the Palestinian population entirely from Israel through exile or genocide.

And right now, it seems very clear to me that option 3 is the favored option of the powers that be. 

@Emerald Thank you, i think you hit in on the nail with your three option deal. I choose the third option. Now would you please leave us alone.

As far as Ethno state, ok, when you have 21 Arab Nationalist States and when you have 56 Muslim States and you have Christian States as well as democratic states and all types of States, it would be fair to have one Jewish State, i am not asking for 5 or 10, just one. And when you convert all other states into pure democratic non binary states then we can speak of Jewish state, but until then, no thanks. This is a core of our argument, everything else, is very surface secondary. I hope I made it very clear and what we want. I dont think it can be any more clear, but feel free to ask me more questions, i am very honest person and I am not one of those people who say one thing, thinks something else and does third. I am very blunt and straight to the point person.