Free Palestine? No thanks.

[Emerald]

On 10/28/2023 at 5:05 AM, Lila9 said:

Intresting video debunking the Pro-Palestinian nerrative with facts.

https://youtu.be/XNf40sBcvKk?si=jf4C0gpQb7zwL5ir

Don't let your allegiance to a government get in the way of your ability to recognize human rights abuses and injustices.

Palestinians have been displaced, marginalized, and oppressed by the Israeli government for decades. And the Israeli government is using the Hamas terror attack to justify killing civilians and framing it as a defense, when it is actually collective punishment and genocide.

They bombed an entire refugee camp a few days ago to go after just one Hamas official. And that killed hundreds of innocent civilians. And the Israeli government has already killed over 3x as many Palestinian civilians as Hamas has killed Israeli civilians... and Israel is a country, so it should be held to higher standards regarding the rules of military engagement than a terrorist group.

But right now it's not being held to the international rules for military engagement. They're being given carte blanch to indiscriminately carpet bomb the Gaza Strip.

And while Hamas's terrorism is absolutely despicable, it's important not to conflate Hamas with the Palestinian people. Over half of the people in the Gaza Strip are children. So when the Israeli government is carpet bombing the Gaza Strip, they are killing MOSTLY children.

And make no mistake... these are war crimes.

Try to imagine if the shoe were on the other foot....

Let's imagine that there was a Jewish majority country. And then a handful of decades ago, Muslims who were fleeing oppression wanted to set up a Muslim homeland based off of some of the scriptures in the Quran.

Then, they went to that Jewish majority country and began ousting Jewish families from their homes and pushing them into smaller and smaller areas of land to live in abject poverty and oppression, so that they could set up a Muslim ethnostate. And the Jewish people in this ethnostate would be ruled by a totally different set of laws than the Muslim citizens.

Then, as typically happens in these situations where one people oppresses another people and a country is denied its sovereignty from another nation... a terrorist group takes power. And they become a shadow version of a military force in lieu of being able to protect themselves with a sovereign state military.

Then, this Jewish terrorist group (that represents a very small minority of Jewish people living in the region) commits a terrorist atrocity against the Muslim civilians living in the ethnostate.

And the Muslim ethnostate's government uses this atrocity as an opportunity to bomb all of the Jewish civilians by claiming that they're just going after the terrorists... they just so happen to kill 99.99% civilians. And in statements from the state's officials they even claim that there are no true Jewish civilians.

If the shoe were on the other foot... would you find that situation to be just?

[ArcticGong]

My point with sharing the videos is that criticism seems to come from many prominent Jewish and non-Jewish voices like Chomsky, Bernie Sanders, Finkelstien, Mearsheimer Jon Stewart and etc. Furthermore, these orthodox  Jewish people claim that they are not alone and that many orthodox people are critical about Isreal from a religious pov. Honestly, it don’t know what’s what. 

Edited November 5, 2023 by ArcticGong
Forgot one person

[Emerald]

On 10/29/2023 at 4:23 AM, Lila9 said:

I don't believe that if Hamas were to eliminate Israel and establish Palestine in its place, they would suddenly abandon their radical Islamist ideology and work towards peace with America and Europe. Instead, their next step would likely involve committing acts of terror and waging war against those they perceive as opposing their extremist beliefs. Because this is where they at.

If you think that Hamas is a secular resistance organization fighting for the rights of Palestinians, I really don't know how to help you, maybe you will realize how radical and dangerous they are once they will commit terror in your town or neighborhood, killing people just because they are Christian from Europe.

In fact, one of Hamas' leaders' sons has openly stated that their ultimate goal, after eliminating Israel, is to target individuals they consider 'sinners' across the world.

To be more general... think of an oppressive state as a Petri dish... and a terrorist group is like the bacteria that grows from that Petri dish.

Most terrorists groups crop up and gain power in these types of conditions. If you observe it from a distance you'll recognize that this pattern crops up all over the place. These are general human patterns that can be noticed.

Now Hamas is the bacteria that has grown from the Petri dish of the oppressive state of Israel. And Hamas definitely wouldn't have power that it currently has if it wasn't for the Israeli government oppressing the Palestinian people.

Now, since Hamas already exists... if Israel suddenly stopped oppressing the Palestinian people, it wouldn't go away per se... but it would begin to slowly lose power once Palestinians were granted human rights. And after several decades of Palestinian equality, Hamas would likely dissipate or grow impotent.

Terrorist groups don't gain power out of nowhere. They gain power from the collective pain and trauma of a people or a nation.

That's how these groups recruit people and stir up a fervor for violence.

Take a teenage boy living his whole life under occupation in the Gaza Strip who witnessed his entire family get blown up by the IDF.

Then, with the pain and bitterness associated with that experience, that teenage boy is very susceptible to recruitment from Hamas. And he's not the only one. The more trauma and terror the Israeli government levies against the Palestinian people... the more recruits that Hamas will be able to find.

So, what the IDF is doing now is most certainly going to strengthen the power of Hamas over time.

But if there is no substantial oppression and collective trauma, a group like Hamas isn't going to be able to recruit very many people at all. Pain and trauma is the glue that keeps a terrorist group together and in power.

Of course, pre-terrorist hate groups exist in every region (i.e. the KKK, Neo-Nazis, etc.). But they aren't able to recruit much and gain much power unless the population experiences a trauma or upheaval strong enough to push those who exist in the center to the extremes. Only then do these groups begin to amass power.

They still exist, of course... but they exist on the fringes with minimal power.

[Lila9]

@Emerald I understand. If the situation was flipped and if the middle east would have containted only Jews countries, wouldn't it be expected from them to give some aid and open their gates to the oppressed Jewish minority?

Because currently, no Arab country wants to "save" the oppressed Palestinians, and why so? Why it's expected only from Israel to solve this conflict and find a solution even at the expense of its people's lives? While the solutions can be only achieved by cooperation of a few countries.

I don't think that Hamas represents all the Palestinians, but there is a mindest which support the growth of such radicalism and not only in what we call Palestine but in the entire middle east, and not necessarily in oppressed minorities.

 

[Emerald]

1 minute ago, Lila9 said:

@Emerald I understand. If the situation was flipped and if the middle east would have containted only Jews countries, wouldn't it be expected from them to give some aid and open their gates to the oppressed Jewish minority?

Because currently, no Arab country wants to "save" the oppressed Palestinians, and why so? Why it's expected only from Israel to solve this conflict and find a solution even at the expense of its people's lives? While the solutions can be only achieved by cooperation of a few countries.

I don't think that Hamas represents all the Palestinians, but there is a mindest which support the growth of such radicalism and not only in what we call Palestine but in the entire middle east, and not necessarily in oppressed minorities.

 

Well... Israel is the one that's causing the conflict. That's why people are looking to Israel to solve the conflict... because it's the Israeli government that's enacting the oppression.

So, it's not really fair to lay the blame at the feet of surrounding nations. Certainly the surrounding nations should help.

But they're not to blame for the state of Israel's oppression of Palestinians... Israel is. 

You might be thinking something along the lines of 'Muslim nations should help an oppressed Muslim populace.' or something like that.

But focusing on religious collective identity just creates a smoke screen of cognitive dissonance to those who don't want to criticize the Israeli government... and obfuscates the responsibility for the Palestinian oppression onto nations that aren't actually doing the oppression.

It would be like if a bully was beating up a smaller kid.

Then, when the parents of the bully were confronted about their kid's behavior, they would say something like "Well, why didn't the other kids come in and defend the smaller kid? Why is my son getting all the blame for bullying the smaller kid when the other kids aren't even doing anything to help?"

[Lila9]

2 minutes ago, Emerald said:

Now, since Hamas already exists... if Israel suddenly stopped oppressing the Palestinian people, it wouldn't go away per se... but it would begin to slowly lose power once Palestinians were granted human rights. And after several decades of Palestinian equality, Hamas would likely dissipate or grow impotent.

Terrorist groups don't gain power out of nowhere. They gain power from the collective pain and trauma of a people or a nation.

Hamas ideology is to have the entire Israel and to eliminate all the Jews there, no less. From their stage of development, Israel's letinant approach interpretated as weakness and a proof that their aggressive methods, aka Jihad, do work.

And it's grounded in history, when Israel evacuated its people from Gaza streep and give it to the Palestinians, Hamas who existed at that time but wasn't dominant, became stronger and more radicalized.

Being letinant with this stage of development is not healthy, country should set its healthy bounderies if it wants to exists. Being letinant at this stage it's like helping to a psychopath who wants to kill you, kill you faster, it's like helping him to kill you.

The solution is first to eliminate Hamas and then to find a better leadership for Gaza, it has to be someone strong with western values, not necessarily Israel. It should be someone who would take care of the Palestinians there, protect them from extremists, set real plan of making this place more developed.

Because currently they are brainwashed from school to hate Jews and to see killing Jews as something religiously good rather than studying English, Math and other things that would make them normal and productive part of human society.

At this stage of moderate leadership there will be the real option to re-negotiate about a two state solution.

 

 

[Lila9]

2 minutes ago, Emerald said:

Well... Israel is the one that's causing the conflict. That's why people are looking to Israel to solve the conflict... because it's the Israeli government that's enacting the oppression.

So, it's not really fair to lay the blame at the feet of surrounding nations. Certainly the surrounding nations should help.

But they're not to blame for the state of Israel's oppression of Palestinians... Israel is. 

You might be thinking something along the lines of 'Muslim nations should help an oppressed Muslim populace.' or something like that.

But focusing on religious collective identity just creates a smoke screen of cognitive dissonance to those who don't want to criticize the Israeli government... and obfuscates the responsibility for the Palestinian oppression onto nations that aren't actually doing the oppression.

It would be like if a bully was beating up a smaller kid.

Then, when the parents of the bully were confronted about their kid's behavior, they would say something like "Well, why didn't the other kids come in and defend the smaller kid? Why is my son getting all the blame for bullying the smaller kid when the other kids aren't even doing anything to help?"

The world sees Israel as a bully but from Israel pov they are the victim as it's a one Jewish country against a few Muslim Arab countries who are against it's existence. The definition of who is the bully and who is the abuser is not 100% clear as every side interprets things differently and operates from their own survival bias.

And the notion that Israel has stolen the land from Palestinians is questionable either as from Israel pov, some terertories were purchased by Zionists from Arabs (even though it was prohibited by their leadership) while the rest was given by the British Mandate, as there was no Palestinian country at that time.

Questions like the following questions arise:

What is Palestine? When and by whom the Palestinian state was founded? What were the borders of this state? What was its capital? What were its major cities?

What form did its government have? Are the people called Palestinians are something other than generic Arabs gathered from the surrounding areas? If do, what they are? Who they are?

 

 

 

 

[Emerald]

Just now, Lila9 said:

Hamas ideology is to have the entire Israel and to eliminate all the Jews there, no less. From their stage of development, Israel's letinant approach interpretated as weakness and a proof that their aggressive methods, aka Jihad, do work.

And it's grounded in history, when Israel evacuated its people from Gaza streep and give it to the Palestinians, Hamas who existed at that time but wasn't dominant, became stronger and more radicalized.

Being letinant with this stage of development is not healthy, country should set its healthy bounderies if it wants to exists. Being letinant at this stage it's like helping to a psychopath who wants to kill you, kill you faster, it's like helping him to kill you.

The solution is first to eliminate Hamas and then to find a better leadership for Gaza, it has to be someone strong with western values, not necessarily Israel. It should be someone who would take care of the Palestinians there, protect them from extremists, set real plan of making this place more developed.

Because currently they are brainwashed from school to hate Jews and to see killing Jews as something religiously good rather than studying English, Math and other things that would make them normal and productive part of human society.

At this stage of moderate leadership there will be the real option to re-negotiate about a two state solution.

Number one, Israel still isn't supposed to commit war crimes against innocent civilians... regardless of what Hamas is doing.

Number two, it isn't "being lenient" to avoid killing innocent civilians. It's just following international law.

Israel doesn't have to kill thousands of children to prove to Hamas how tough they are. And the IDF killing thousands of children isn't going to stop Hamas from doing acts of terrorism.

If the IDF really wanted to go after Hamas, they could be laser focused in their approach to taking out Hamas combatants. But instead, they are bombing entire city blocks. 

It's the equivalent of if a murderer was in a house down the street from you. And the police comes in and bombs everyone within a 5 block radius.

Number three, Palestinians don't have the option to set healthy boundaries as country. It is not a sovereign country and it doesn't have any means to defend itself... because of the Israeli government.

And Israel holds all the power in this equation... and it isn't making any moves towards a one-state or two-state solution. Its goal is to just get rid of the Palestinian people altogether. That's what ethnostates do.

Also... consider how you would respond.

Let's say for example that Canadians came to where you live and they began displacing you and your family and all of your community... and pushing you into the worst places to live. And you grew up in a territory that was occupied by Canadians... and Canadian soldiers were on your block with machine guns. And then, some of your siblings and cousins were killed in a bombing done by the Canadians. And your whole life was just non-stop strife because of the Canadian occupation.

Do you really think that you wouldn't feel any feelings of anger or hatred towards Canadians at all? I honestly think you'd have to be a saint if you didn't feel those feelings at all.

Of course, I'm never pro-hatred in any context as it leads to terrible outcomes in any case.

But I recognize the feelings of hatred of the oppressed towards the oppressor as coming from a very vulnerable place. And it's unrealistic to expect that an oppressed people would bear no anger or hatred towards the oppressing group.

And I feel like you're choosing to see the Palestinian's anger solely through the lens of Muslim religious extremism and antisemitism when the Palestinians have every reason to be angry about what's been done to them and is being done to them. 

So, I feel like focusing on this angle is another way to create cognitive dissonance to avoid seeing the wrongs that the Israeli government has levied against the Palestinian people.

Do you see that you're finding rationalizations to keep yourself from facing squarely with these realities?

[Nivsch]

1 hour ago, Emerald said:

To be more general... think of an oppressive state as a Petri dish... and a terrorist group is like the bacteria that grows from that Petri dish.

Most terrorists groups crop up and gain power in these types of conditions. If you observe it from a distance you'll recognize that this pattern crops up all over the place. These are general human patterns that can be noticed.

Now Hamas is the bacteria that has grown from the Petri dish of the oppressive state of Israel. And Hamas definitely wouldn't have power that it currently has if it wasn't for the Israeli government oppressing the Palestinian people.

Now, since Hamas already exists... if Israel suddenly stopped oppressing the Palestinian people, it wouldn't go away per se... but it would begin to slowly lose power once Palestinians were granted human rights. And after several decades of Palestinian equality, Hamas would likely dissipate or grow impotent.

Terrorist groups don't gain power out of nowhere. They gain power from the collective pain and trauma of a people or a nation.

That's how these groups recruit people and stir up a fervor for violence.

Take a teenage boy living his whole life under occupation in the Gaza Strip who witnessed his entire family get blown up by the IDF.

Then, with the pain and bitterness associated with that experience, that teenage boy is very susceptible to recruitment from Hamas. And he's not the only one. The more trauma and terror the Israeli government levies against the Palestinian people... the more recruits that Hamas will be able to find.

So, what the IDF is doing now is most certainly going to strengthen the power of Hamas over time.

But if there is no substantial oppression and collective trauma, a group like Hamas isn't going to be able to recruit very many people at all. Pain and trauma is the glue that keeps a terrorist group together and in power.

Of course, pre-terrorist hate groups exist in every region (i.e. the KKK, Neo-Nazis, etc.). But they aren't able to recruit much and gain much power unless the population experiences a trauma or upheaval strong enough to push those who exist in the center to the extremes. Only then do these groups begin to amass power.

They still exist, of course... but they exist on the fringes with minimal power.

Its not that you don't have part of the picture right, but I think it is easy to fall into one extreme. Both sides are intertwined in a very complicated dynamic.

Israel left gaza in 2005 giving the keys fully to the palestinians to do everything that they want. Actually, thats what made hamas to take over gaza in 2007.

Before 2005, when Israel sitted in gaza, the palestinian authority was in control in gaza and they were surely more moderate than hamas.

Yes, the settlements expansion are a problem that make the palestinians be more extreme against Israel. But on the other hand, Israel wants part of jerusalem for very good reasons and also some villages around jerusalem (not be in enclave) so *part* of the occupation of the west bank is jistified.

The arab world invade to Israel trying to kill us all even in 1948.

Edited November 5, 2023 by Nivsch

[Emerald]

19 minutes ago, Lila9 said:

The world sees Israel as a bully but from Israel pov they are the victim as it's a one Jewish country against a few Muslim Arab countries who are against it's existence. The definition of who is the bully and who is the abuser is not 100% clear as every side interprets things differently and operates from their own survival bias.

And the notion that Israel has stolen the land from Palestinians is questionable either as from Israel pov, some terertories were purchased by Zionists from Arabs (even though it was prohibited by their leadership) while the rest was given by the British Mandate, as there was no Palestinian country at that time.

Questions like the following questions arise:

What is Palestine? When and by whom the Palestinian state was founded? What were the borders of this state? What was its capital? What were its major cities?

What form did its government have? Are the people called Palestinians are something other than generic Arabs gathered from the surrounding areas? If do, what they are? Who they are?

But there is an objective truth here. And you're going into looking from these different angles to avoid looking squarely at that truth.

The truth is that the Israeli government is oppressing the Palestinian people and committing war crimes against innocent civilians (mostly children).

Focusing on any other angle than that angle is just an attempt to look away from the ugly truth of it.

[Lila9]

3 minutes ago, Emerald said:

Do you see that you're finding rationalizations to keep yourself from facing squarely with these realities?

I agree that being oppressed cause rage. It's natural.

But you portray a picture in which Israel is the only oppressor of Palestinians and every negative thing in their lives is because of Israel. It's very simplistic view, even black and white. If you talk about oppression of the Palestinians seriously, you have to address their leadership throughout the time which is either curropted or extremely radical or both and is responsible for most of their misery, poverty and underdevelopment, and it's not helping that their own leadership systemically convince Palestinians that all the source of their misery is Israel so they would not be motivated to rebel against their leadership and at the same time to be angry enough at Israel to commit even worse crimes against innocent Israeli people.

Even Mossab Hassan Yousef which is the son of Hamas founder said that Palestinians are brainwashed to blame Israel for their oppression while their biggest oppressors are their leaders and he knows better than both of us as he actually grew up there and saw how they operate, how they treat people.

You also have to address Hamas usage of places like hospitals, schools, residential building as arsenals, control rooms, hiding place for terrorists knowngly they risking Palestinians.

 

 

 

[Lila9]

19 minutes ago, Emerald said:

But there is an objective truth here. And you're going into looking from these different angles to avoid looking squarely at that truth.

The truth is that the Israeli government is oppressing the Palestinian people and committing war crimes against innocent civilians (mostly children).

Focusing on any other angle than that angle is just an attempt to look away from the ugly truth of it.

Objective truth would also address the war crimes Hamas commits against Israeli and Palestinian people instead of justifying them.

[Emerald]

7 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

Its not that you don't have part of the picture right, but I think it is easy to fall into one extreme. Both sides are intertwined in a very complicated dynamic.

Israel left gaza in 2005 giving the keys fully to the palestinians to do everything that they want. Actually, thats what made hamas to take over gaza in 2007.

Before 2005, when Israel sitted in gaza, the palestinian authority was in control in gaza and they were surely more moderate than hamas.

Yes, the settlements expansion are a problem that make the palestinians be more extreme against Israel. But on the other hand, Israel wants part of jerusalem for very good reasons and also some villages around jerusalem (not be in enclave) so *part* of the occupation of the west bank is jistified.

The arab world invade to Israel trying to kill us all even in 1948.

I'm sure that the situation altogether is very complex because any shifts in the power structures is going to be chaotic.

And if you have a group of people that lacks a sovereign state and the ability to have a state military... you're going to get Shadow forms of the government and Shadow forms of the military cropping up.

That's likely why Hamas took power in the power vacuum that Israel created in 2005.

That's why 'giving the keys' to a non-sovereign people only works if either integrate them fully or you grant them their own sovereign state. Otherwise it just creates a power vacuum where they still have no military defense.

I haven't seen this video. But I've heard tell of a video from years ago of Benjamin Netanyahu saying he wanted Hamas to get stronger so that he can use their terrorism to justify using military force against Palestinians.

Again, I haven't seen this video. But if that is true, then it's a possibility that the situation in 2005 was meant to sew some chaos.

Also I'm not saying that Jewish people don't belong in Jerusalem or anywhere else for that matter.

What I'm saying is that the Israeli government ousting people from the place they've lived in for their whole lives is not okay. And the power imbalance and injustices that are happening to the Palestinian people are not okay. 

 

[Emerald]

11 minutes ago, Lila9 said:

Objective truth would also address the war crimes Hamas commits against Israeli and Palestinian people instead of justifying them.

Obviously Hamas is committing war crimes. They're terrorists. And I'm not justifying anything Hamas has done. If anyone is doing that, they're very out of alignment with truth and love.

But once again, this is another attempt to run away from the truth...

The Israeli government is committing war crimes and enacting collective punishment against Palestinian civilians in the Gaza Strip... most of whom are under that age of 15.

Can you acknowledge that?

[StarStruck]

2 hours ago, ArcticGong said:

My point with sharing the videos is that criticism seems to come from many prominent Jewish and non-Jewish voices like Chomsky, Bernie Sanders, Finkelstien, Mearsheimer Jon Stewart and etc. Furthermore, these orthodox  Jewish people claim that they are not alone and that many orthodox people are critical about Isreal from a religious pov. Honestly, it don’t know what’s what. 

Since when is Chomsky not an eternal Jew? Lmao

I don’t think he is really critical. He is just a lightening rod. 

There are no truly anti Jew voices in the US, those won’t be allowed or be quickly canceled. 

[Lila9]

9 minutes ago, Emerald said:

Can you acknowledge that?

I acknowledge that innocent civilians being killed in Gaza and it's heartbreaking.

Do Israel has the intention of killing innocents as a collective punishment? I don't know and I don't think so because if they did that they wouldn't bother to request Palestinians to evacuate. 

[Nivsch]

@Emerald Ok sounds fair to me and I understand you. The right wing here is problematic in many ways mostly in the expansion of the settlements. 

About ousting people from the place they were live in can you explain more specifically what do you mean? What cases has disturbed you the most?

And about the power imbalance?

Edited November 5, 2023 by Nivsch

[Nivsch]

36 minutes ago, Emerald said:

But once again, this is another attempt to run away from the truth...

The Israeli government is committing war crimes and enacting collective punishment against Palestinian civilians in the Gaza Strip... most of whom are under that age of 15.

Can you acknowledge that?

Do you think Israel targets civilians intentionally?

As someone who live here from birth, know Israelis mentality and values and given Israel's careful strategy in previous operations (what you can't see in any other military in the world) i think it is highly unlikely.

Edited November 5, 2023 by Nivsch

[ArcticGong]

33 minutes ago, StarStruck said:

Since when is Chomsky not an eternal Jew? Lmao

I don’t think he is really critical. He is just a lightening rod. 

There are no truly anti Jew voices in the US, those won’t be allowed or be quickly canceled. 

That good. The public space shouldn’t tolerate anti-any group. Imagine an anti-Christian, white,black, Hispanic, catholic group or voice. It’s absurd. Criticism , questioning and inquiry, however, is healthy in any in most subject matters. In this case, American foreign policy in the Middle East, which Isreal plays a key role needs to be questioned for many reason. Especially when America wants to claim morale high over everyone else. 

Edited November 5, 2023 by ArcticGong
Added some points

[Lila9]