Free Palestine? No thanks.

[Lila9]

That's an amusing video which explains what westerns (stage green mostly I suppose) don't get about Hamas:

 

[Lila9]

What an Israeli Arab says about the claim that Israel is a stolen Palestinian land:

 

[Lila9]

 

[Breakingthewall]

38 minutes ago, Lila9 said:

I see country who must occupy territory, at this given moment, to ensure its safety, not necessarily to get stronger or richer.

On 28/10/2023 at 9:00 PM, Nivsch said:

@lila9

How does stealing land from Palestinians increase security?

[Lila9]

6 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

How does stealing land from Palestinians increase security?

When you live with bloodthirsty terrorists who would like to eliminate you, it's either puting bounderies between you and them and using your military to keep them under control or not to do that and be massacred in your sleep. 

The massacre came from Gaza which is not occupied by Israel.

 

 

[Nivsch]

4 hours ago, Lila9 said:

It's really heartwarming to watch.

And yes the western comfortable life disconnects people from how bad things can be and how valuable democracy is. 

👍 exactly they take it for granted.

Seems to me like they are subconsciosely want to feel again the harm/rougness from the previous stages to grow themsleves and appreciate democracy again from new, by their own life lessons (and not from a golden spoon putted in their mouth as they have been grown).

And thats why they crave so much to support the violent/animalistic side. 

Edited November 4, 2023 by Nivsch

[Lila9]

@Nivsch It's a very good point, and I agree that individuals may subconsciously seek to integrate primal stages they haven't had the opportunity to integrate growing up in Western society, by supporting Palestine and justifying Hamas.

[zazen]

2 hours ago, Lila9 said:

You think that I support Israel from ill intentions of supporting things like genocide and occupation in the classical definition but from my pov I don't see genocide nor occupation.

I see a democratic country who have to deal with terrorists and put strong boundaries, to ensure its existence. And not only one group of them, there are threats from all the corners.

I see country who does everything to defend its people and to treat its enemies the best it can, given the circumstances.

I see country who must occupy territory, at this given moment, to ensure its safety, not necessarily to get stronger or richer.

 So Israel are occupiers and the Palestinians are under occupation?

Do Palestinians have a right to defend themselves against occupation? 

Yesterday a hospital was bombed (video below) - you don’t think more Palestinians will get radicalised from this?

https://x.com/mohammed_hijab/status/1720511987887563032?s=46&t=DuLUbFRQFGpB8oo7PwRglQ

London experienced the 7/7 underground terror attack in 2005 - they responded by increasing surveillance, intelligence sharing, and de-radicalisation policies. China had extremist elements amongst the Uighur Muslims causing problems for example and a bit questionably are re-educating them.

But it’s bad strategy to occupy a whole community in the way Israel does and the extreme level of control it exercises over them. Then to have periodic operations to ‘cut the grass’ as they call it amongst the IDF which only further radicalises Palestinian recruits into Hamas in a never ending cycle.

 

Edited November 4, 2023 by zazen

[Something Funny]

@Lila9 lets say I agree with your premise. Israel is in a tough spot, surrounded by enemies, and has a right to defend itself.

The question is, how legitimate are the methods that they are using. Mass bombing specifically.

Please see below articles:

https://www.rfi.fr/en/international/20231103-french-institute-in-gaza-hit-by-israeli-strike-paris-demands-answers

https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/03/middleeast/casualties-gazas-shifa-hospital-idf/index.html

When people read those types of articles, it makes them question whether Israel actually does any kind of research and tries to target places where terrorists are or if they are just shelling everything randomly as an act of terror.

As article about the French institute mentions, its location is a public knowledge precisely to prevent a bomb from being randomly bombed onto it. So how did it happen? Does Israel really check where they are firing before doing it?

And it's not like those are very rare cases, those "mistakes" happen regularly from what I understand. So it makes you wonder if those are really mistakes or if it is just Israel's strategy to level Gaza with the ground.

 

Edited November 4, 2023 by Something Funny

[Lila9]

1 minute ago, zazen said:

Do Palestinians have a right to defend themselves against occupation? 

Of course they do, no doubt. But the question is how they do that? If they attack non combats during their sleep, it's problematic and isn't count as defense but as an unsustified attack.

If they defend themselves from someone who put gun on their head, throw rocks on them, try to kill or hurt them in some way, sure, they have the right to attack back to save their lives, no question.

But if they throw rocks on soldiers and on settlers with the intention to kill or hurt them, which is what often happens in the west bank, these settlers and soliders have the right to defend themselves too.

The occupation wouldn't end with being more violent towards Israel as Israel legitimately will be become more rigid in order to defend itself. The occupation would end by becoming more developed like Israel, by embracing more liberal, secular, nationalistic and western values which they are currently rejecting in favor of more radical Islamic values, the idea of "Jihad". 

7 minutes ago, zazen said:

So Israel are occupiers and the Palestinians are under occupation?

Not all Palestinians are occupied, there is Gaza which isn't occupied and extremists freely grow there, there are Arabs in Israel who idenify themselves as Palestinians and receive all the rights a civilian can receive and it's clearly doesn't count as occupation.

The West Bank is occupied and is under Israel's military control and thanks to that extremists don't grow too much there.

3 minutes ago, zazen said:

But it’s bad strategy to occupy a whole community in the way Israel does and the extreme level of control it exercises over them. Then to further have operations to ‘cut the grass’ as they call it amongst the IDF which only further radicalises Palestinian recruits into Hamas in a never ending cycle.

It's arguable because Israel doesn't occupy Gaza, and yet there are extremities.

When people have such radical and deadly ideology it won't die once you give them more freedom but it will grow faster and stronger. This is the concern. So maybe in this particular case, it's safer for Israel to occupy Gaza or to have it under UN leadership or any authority that will prevent Gaza from being ruled by stage red radicals with low set of values and a great danger to their surroundings.

[Lila9]

3 minutes ago, Something Funny said:

@Lila9 lets say I agree with your premise. Israel is in a tough spot, surrounded by enemies, and has a right to defend itself.

The question is, how legitimate are the methods that they are using. Mass bombing specifically.

Please see below articles:

https://www.rfi.fr/en/international/20231103-french-institute-in-gaza-hit-by-israeli-strike-paris-demands-answers

https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/03/middleeast/casualties-gazas-shifa-hospital-idf/index.html

When people read those types of articles, it makes them question whether Israel actually does any kind of research and tries to target places where terrorists are or if they are just shelling everything randomly as an act of terror.

As article about the French institute mentions, its location is a public knowledge precisely to prevent a bomb from being randomly bombed onto it. So how did it happen? Does Israel really check where they are firing before doing it?

And it's not like those are very rare cases, those "mistakes" happen regularly from what I understand. So it makes you wonder if those are really mistakes or if it is just Israel's strategy to level Gaza with the ground.

 

Israel doesn't seem to bomb randomly.

In the first link you give, there weren't people in the building and this building was very likely bombed because some Hamas control rooms there, Hamas arsenal or tunnel openings.

In the second link which Israel bombed ambulances, according to Israel, there weren't innocent injured civilians in them but Hamas terrorists who hide in these ambulances.

It's not to say that Israel doesn't kill innocent civilians when targeting Hamas or that that's ok. This is the unfortunate outcome of this war.

But, I don't agree that Israel just bombing Gaza randomly, targeting hospitals for the sake of killing innocents, and intentionally wants to kill as much as innocent civilians as it could, this narrative seems not grounded in reality.

[Something Funny]

@Lila9 maybe, and hopefully that's true.

But how can we trust them and know if what they are saying is true? You've said it yourself that Israel's government is not perfect. What's stopping them from saying "there were terrorists there" every time they fuck up?

Like in the case with the ambulance, Israel says there were terrorists in it, people on the ground say that they were just civilians. How do we know who is saying the truth?

How would Israel even identify whether there are terrorists or not in the ambulance? 

[Breakingthewall]

3 hours ago, Lila9 said:

When you live with bloodthirsty terrorists who would like to eliminate you, it's either puting bounderies between you and them and using your military to keep them under control or not to do that and be massacred in your sleep. 

The massacre came from Gaza which is not occupied by Israel.

 

 

I meant to steal land in west bank. Israel is expelling its inhabitants, who have lived there for generations, from that area. It doesn't do it because they are bloodthirsty but because they wants those lands.

[Breakingthewall]

1 hour ago, Lila9 said:

In the second link which Israel bombed ambulances, according to Israel, there weren't innocent injured civilians in them but Hamas terrorists who hide in these ambulances

Sure, In an ambulance in a hospital there were terrorists. How do they know? If they couldn't see two thousand guys breaking the fence, how can they know who is in the ambulance? Don't you think maybe they invented? Seems quite criminals. I'd say that they are punishment bombings, to bury people alive in their buildings, without any risk to the attacker.

[Lila9]

2 hours ago, Something Funny said:

@Lila9 maybe, and hopefully that's true.

But how can we trust them and know if what they are saying is true? You've said it yourself that Israel's government is not perfect. What's stopping them from saying "there were terrorists there" every time they fuck up?

Like in the case with the ambulance, Israel says there were terrorists in it, people on the ground say that they were just civilians. How do we know who is saying the truth?

How would Israel even identify whether there are terrorists or not in the ambulance? 

They are not bloodthirsty, they are not interested in killing for the sake of it.

The government might be blue rn but the army is orange and operates more startigically and methodically rather than impulsively killing as much people as possible.

If it has this goal, to eliminate Palestinians they would have already killed the entire population both in Gaza and the West Bank with their technology. They had 70 years to do so and yet, Palestinian population is still here.

Israel army has it's own methods, tools and technology to follow terrorists and to know exactly where they are. 

 

 

[Lila9]

1 hour ago, Breakingthewall said:

Sure, In an ambulance in a hospital there were terrorists. How do they know? If they couldn't see two thousand guys breaking the fence, how can they know who is in the ambulance? Don't you think maybe they invented? Seems quite criminals. I'd say that they are punishment bombings, to bury people alive in their buildings, without any risk to the attacker.

Israel always listened to Hamas walkie talkies to predict such things.

According to American research, a year ago Israel decided not to do that anymore, maybe because it was seen as a waste of time and money as the area was pretty quiet for the last years. They decided to focus more on the North and the West Bank. 

Now they realized their mistake and the importance of eavesdropping on Hamas.

They underestimated their enemies.

 

 

[Breakingthewall]

Just now, Lila9 said:

Israel always listened to Hamas walkie talkies to predict such things.

According to American research, a year ago Israel decided not to do that anymore, maybe because it was seen as a waste of time and money as the area was pretty quiet for the last years. They decided to focus more on the North and the West Bank. 

Now they realized their mistake and the importance of eavesdropping on Hamas.

They underestimated their enemies.

 

 

Seems impossible, but who knows, those things happen.  We will see when calm arrives, a lot of investigation is going to be done

[Gennadiy1981]

@Lila9 I will make it simple and plain. Palestine as a nation or a country never existed, it was only created to eliminate the state of Israel, that’s their only function. See simple question a Japanese poet Yashiko Sagamori asks simple questions if Palestine ever existed and none can be answer, even here on this forum. 
https://www.ctjc.org.uk/bulletin/march-2009-bulletin-articles/a-japanese-academic-s-view-of-the-palestinians

I want to quote to you one Palestinian politician Zeheir Mohsen,  In a March 1977 interview with the Dutch newspaper Trouw he stated that The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct "Palestinian people" to oppose Zionism.

For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zuheir_Mohsen

https://creationwiki.org/Palestine

Anyways they are Arabs, part of the Arab Nation and God bless them elsewhere. I wish them to peacefully and happily join their Arab brethren in 21 other Arab states and live happily ever after.

[ArcticGong]

What about these guys?

 

 

Edited November 5, 2023 by ArcticGong

[Gennadiy1981]

Lol, really when there was an opportunity to leave Arab countries the Jews left and most were also expelled, “ In 1945, there were approximately 866,000 Jews living in communities throughout the Arab world. Today, there are fewer than 10,000. In many Arab states, once thriving Jewish communities have all but disappeared. According to official statistics, 856,000 Jews, persecuted and under duress, were exiled from their homes in Arab countries between 1948 and the early 1970s leaving behind substantial property and other assets.”

https://www.worldjewishcongress.org/en/focus-areas/jews-from-arab-lands
 

Listen there is a small group of so called Orthodox Jews of about 30 people who are on the payroll of PLO and they are their spokespeople. Yes they are welcome to any Arab country but rest assured 99% or more of Jews are not welcome. And most do not represent that point of view.