Free Palestine? No thanks.

[Lila9]

8 hours ago, Tobia said:

Good luck with that, the whole world is increasingly isolating your pathetic fascistic regime  

If there was not this "pathetic fascistic regime" which is a breath of fresh air in the middle east called Israel, Hamas would targeting all the beautiful pro Palestinian souls in Europe and US. They are fools being blinded by antisemitism and not realizing that it's their luck that suicidal terrorists like Hamas are currently focused on Israel and not on them. They should thank to Israel for its mere existence as it saves their asses from crazy terrorists from the middle east. 

[Lila9]

10 hours ago, Nivsch said:

@Lila9 And after what happened, and given the length of the borders around west bank, the inevitable conclusion is that we cannot defend those borders properly if hamas will grow there freely without Israel precence in the field. Now this is clear that an independent palestinian state in west bank is not an option anymore.

This is reasonable. It would be crazy, naive and suicidal of Israel to give an independent Palestinian state in the west bank at this level of Palestinians development and Hamas presence.

 

 

[Something Funny]

1 hour ago, Lila9 said:

If there was not this "pathetic fascistic regime" which is a breath of fresh air in the middle east called Israel, Hamas would targeting all the beautiful pro Palestinian souls in Europe and US. They are fools being blinded by antisemitism and not realizing that it's their luck that suicidal terrorists like Hamas are currently focused on Israel and not on them. They should thank to Israel for its mere existence as it saves their asses from crazy terrorists from the middle east. 

There would be no Hamas. Like it literally would not exist if not for the US's and Israel's fucked up foreign policy.

[Something Funny]

10 hours ago, Tobia said:

Besides that, all apartheid and colonial states are destined to fall. Either by military defeat by the surrounding region (increasingly likely) or by international pressure. 

It's actually really interesting to see for how long it will hold. I wonder if there will still be Israel by the end of the 21st century.

[Lila9]

1 hour ago, Something Funny said:

There would be no Hamas. Like it literally would not exist if not for the US's and Israel's fucked up foreign policy.

I don't believe that if Hamas were to eliminate Israel and establish Palestine in its place, they would suddenly abandon their radical Islamist ideology and work towards peace with America and Europe. Instead, their next step would likely involve committing acts of terror and waging war against those they perceive as opposing their extremist beliefs. Because this is where they at.

If you think that Hamas is a secular resistance organization fighting for the rights of Palestinians, I really don't know how to help you, maybe you will realize how radical and dangerous they are once they will commit terror in your town or neighborhood, killing people just because they are Christian from Europe.

In fact, one of Hamas' leaders' sons has openly stated that their ultimate goal, after eliminating Israel, is to target individuals they consider 'sinners' across the world.

 

[Guest Tobia]

@Lila9

1 hour ago, Lila9 said:

I don't believe that if Hamas were to eliminate Israel and establish Palestine in its place, they would suddenly abandon their radical Islamist ideology and work towards peace with America and Europe.

Hamas' entire ideology is resistance. Hamas cannot rule Jordan or Egypt, why? there is no need to resist because there is no foreign occupier.

Hamas is a result of the occupation and BIBI's open support of it.

4 hours ago, Lila9 said:

If there was not this "pathetic fascistic regime" which is a breath of fresh air in the middle east called Israel

The years to come will teach you many lessons. A Jewish supremacist state is not a breath of fresh air. It is a criminal enterprise based on ethnic cleansing and mass displacement.

2 hours ago, Something Funny said:

It's actually really interesting to see for how long it will hold. I wonder if there will still be Israel by the end of the 21st century.

@Something Funny In its current form, it cannot continue forever. It is already crumbling, internally and externally. The regime has already lost the information war, the entire world (except the US) is turning against it.

[Something Funny]

1 hour ago, Lila9 said:

I don't believe that if Hamas were to eliminate Israel and establish Palestine in its place, they would suddenly abandon their radical Islamist ideology and work towards peace with America and Europe. Instead, their next step would likely involve committing acts of terror and waging war against those they perceive as opposing their extremist beliefs. Because this is where they at.

If you think that Hamas is a secular resistance organization fighting for the rights of Palestinians, I really don't know how to help you, maybe you will realize how radical and dangerous they are once they will commit terror in your town or neighborhood, killing people just because they are Christian from Europe.

In fact, one of Hamas' leaders' sons has openly stated that their ultimate goal, after eliminating Israel, is to target individuals they consider 'sinners' across the world.

 

That's not what I was talking about. I meant that it wouldn't exist in the first place.

[Lila9]

21 minutes ago, Tobia said:

Hamas' entire ideology is resistance. Hamas cannot rule Jordan or Egypt, why? there is no need to resist because there is no foreign occupier.

Hamas is a result of the occupation and BIBI's open support of it.

Hamas is an Islamic terrorist organization. Its ideology is to eliminate Israel and establish an Islamic state in its place, while also targeting others they consider "sinners."

Egypt and Jordan are not currently targeted by Hamas, but they might have been if Israel did not exist. In such a scenario, they could have pursued Shiites, Christians, and other minorities in the Middle East.

Hamas was founded by Muslim Brotherhood activists, who advocate for Sunni Islam to dominate the constitution and social life, aiming to establish Islamic states governed by Sharia law in Egypt and other Arab countries. One of their slogans is "Islam is the solution."

Hamas shares similarities with the Muslim Brotherhood in its goal of establishing Islamic states but differs in its focus on eliminating Jews and claiming all of Israel for Palestinians under their leadership before targeting others.

41 minutes ago, Tobia said:

The years to come will teach you many lessons. A Jewish supremacist state is not a breath of fresh air. It is a criminal enterprise based on ethnic cleansing and mass displacement.

I prefer a "Jewish supremacist" democratic, liberal, and Western country in the Middle East rather than another Islamic supremacist dictatorship. There are enough of them there, aren't there?

 

[gambler]

On 10/29/2023 at 6:22 AM, Lila9 said:

I prefer a "Jewish supremacist" democratic, liberal, and Western country in the Middle East rather than another Islamic supremacist dictatorship. There are enough of them there, aren't there?

 

It doesn't matter what you prefer in the middle east. This is as silly as a north African preferring an Islamic-Moroccan project for Spain because of historicity and to push the Islamic agenda. This is silly because North Africans have no business preferring any such thing about Europe. It's insulting to think you can subjugate and have dominion and push a project on others. Keep your values to yourselves and stop pushing it on others.

Jewish supremacy too. Wow. This is why no one can get behind your side.

Edited October 31, 2023 by gambler

[Lila9]

17 minutes ago, gambler said:

It doesn't matter what you prefer in the middle east. This is as silly as a north African preferring an Islamic-Moroccan project for Spain because of historicity and to push the Islamic agenda. This is silly because North Africans have no business preferring any such thing about Europe. It's insulting to think you can subjugate and have dominion and push a project on others. Keep your values to yourselves and stop pushing it on others.

Jewish supremacy too. Wow. This is why no one can get behind your side.

Hey dude, chill out I'm not a Jewish/Israeli. I'm just a woman with some common sense.

Israel already exists. This is a modern, democratic and a western country with human rights, women rights, animals rights, LGBTQ+++ rights, religious freedom. Look at the Nova party there, where Hamas did massacre, these people could be people from this forum, liberal and open minded.

Are you ok with replacing it with an another Islamic dictatorship in the middle east? Another place like Iran where there are no human rights and 1000000 restrictions?

A place that delay the human consciousness development rather than supports it?

What do you think Palestine would look like under the leadership of Islamic terrorists? It would be North Korea in the best case scenario.

Are you ready working towards replacing Israel by building another Islamic dictatorship in the middle east? You are very invited, I heard that Hamas is active on Telegram, you may contact them and ask them how you can join?

[gambler]

I never assumed you were Israeli/Jewish. And I never made any notion that I thought Israel would be replaced or can be replaced. You wrote all that, but my point still stands.

[zazen]

A video debunking that very video.

 

[Karmadhi]

@Nivsch Why dont you guys give them back all the land you took during Nakba which was historically Palestine inhabited.

Just give them the land that used to be historically inhabited by Palestinians and keep the land that was historically inhabited by Jews.

Problem solved.

 

[something_else]

On 29/10/2023 at 8:23 AM, Lila9 said:

I don't believe that if Hamas were to eliminate Israel and establish Palestine in its place, they would suddenly abandon their radical Islamist ideology and work towards peace with America and Europe. Instead, their next step would likely involve committing acts of terror and waging war against those they perceive as opposing their extremist beliefs. Because this is where they at.

If you think that Hamas is a secular resistance organization fighting for the rights of Palestinians, I really don't know how to help you, maybe you will realize how radical and dangerous they are once they will commit terror in your town or neighborhood, killing people just because they are Christian from Europe.

In fact, one of Hamas' leaders' sons has openly stated that their ultimate goal, after eliminating Israel, is to target individuals they consider 'sinners' across the world.

 

Quote

I prefer a "Jewish supremacist" democratic, liberal, and Western country in the Middle East rather than another Islamic supremacist dictatorship. There are enough of them there, aren't there?

This situation highlights the problem with a foreign policy that involves trying to force regions of the world to develop to Western standards. Yea, Israel is a richer and more developed country now, but it was created out of nowhere in a poor and conflict prone part of the world, in the homelands of native people who were then treated like shit. It was always going to be an incredibly messy situation. Denying that the West or Israel bear any responsibility for creating this mess is silly.

Forcing regions of the world the develop doesn't tend to work well, they need to be given time and support to develop.

And yes, Hamas is incredibly radical and not the kind of people you want in charge of anything. But a large amount of their fuel comes from being able to radicalise their population against Israel because of past injustice and current treatment.

It also seems that you are viewing the Isareli side as the country of Israel and Israeli people, but you are viewing the Palestinian side as only as the evil Hamas. I think that makes it easier for you to see it is a black and white situation when it is not so clear cut.

Edited October 31, 2023 by something_else

[zazen]

@something_else Very well said.

 

''Israeli policies created Hamas in the "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable" sense. If you stomp out every possible peaceful avenue of resistance, naturally you’re going to see the rise of factions which favor violent resistance. One of the most formative experiences in understanding this conflict happened in 2018 when Israeli soldiers fired on protesters with sniper rifles and live ammo. B’Tselem explicitly denounced this as unlawful. There’s nothing that could possibly make such a thing okay, and it was a very clear illustration of the way Israel has cut Palestinians off from all the normal pathways toward peaceful resolution.

The Hamas attack will ultimately be a net negative for Palestinians. The reason pro Palestinians are perplexed at times and feel fuzzy to in good conscience  “condemn Hamas” is probably because nobody can articulate a positive direction that Palestinians should be taking. The fact that all peaceful avenues of resistance have been cut off is not the fault of the Palestinians, and it’s not the fault of Hamas. It’s the fault of the Israeli government. Hamas is just what you get when you create an intolerably abusive apartheid state which keeps millions of people in a concentration camp whose inhabitants are cut off from basic human needs. Hamas isn’t the disease, it’s a symptom of the disease. The disease is an apartheid settler-colonialist project which cannot exist without endless violence, warfare and abuse.''

[Lila9]

1 hour ago, something_else said:

 

And yes, Hamas is incredibly radical and not the kind of people you want in charge of anything. But a large amount of their fuel comes from being able to radicalise their population against Israel because of past injustice and current treatment.

It also seems that you are viewing the Isareli side as the country of Israel and Israeli people, but you are viewing the Palestinian side as only as the evil Hamas. I think that makes it easier for you to see it is a black and white situation when it is not so clear cut.

My perspective comes to oppose the voices who blame Israel and see it as the one who's responsible to this conflict, which is isn't the whole truth. The reality is more complex that that. The Zionists who built Israel used to be the natives who were expelled from this land 2000 years ago so this is not the classical case of a strong European empire occupying aggressively lands, as it portrayed so many times.

And there is also no evidence that Zionists violently occupied the land.

Yes there were fights between Jews and Arabs but not by any means genocide or massacre systematically against Muslim Arabs. 

I don't think that Palestinians are Hamas by any means, but they chose Hamas so it may say something about them, especially about the way the see Jews.

Also, often, when people mention the poor conditions of the Palestinians, they are automatically put the blame on Israel while in reality, the Palestinian leadership takes a huge part in it. They own Billions and invest millions, supported by Iran, in attacking Israel while they could have created a heaven with this money to Palestinians.

 

[Something Funny]

3 minutes ago, Lila9 said:

Also, often, when people mention the poor conditions of the Palestinians, they are automatically put the blame on Israel while in reality, the Palestinian leadership takes a huge part in it. They own Billions and invest millions, supported by Iran, in attacking Israel while they could have created a heaven with this money to Palestinians.

What you are missing is that it's kind of hard to develop as a society and elect a good leadership while getting bombed.

6 minutes ago, Lila9 said:

The Zionists who built Israel used to be the natives who were expelled from this land 2000 years ago so this is not the classical case of a strong European empire occupying aggressively lands, as it portrayed so many times.

Who cares who lived there 2009 years ago? Can I kick you out of your house because my grandma lived there 2000 years ago?

[Lila9]

2 minutes ago, Something Funny said:

What you are missing is that it's kind of hard to develop as a society and elect a good leadership while getting bombed.

What you are missing is that Palestinians are victims of their own mentality, leadership and level of development before they are victims of Israel and the west. Their egos cling to this view and not only theirs. There is pattern in the middle east that keeps them stuck with undeveloped leadership and underdeveloped societies.

7 minutes ago, Something Funny said:

Who cares who lived there 2009 years ago? Can I kick you out of your house because my grandma lived there 2000 years ago?

Who cares who lived there 70 years ago? Why to cling to a land which your grandfather was expelled from 70 years ago if you have 50 other Muslim countries to live in? 

 

[Something Funny]

1 minute ago, Lila9 said:

What you are missing is that Palestinians are victims of their own mentality, leadership and level of development before they are victims of Israel and the west. Their egos cling to this view and not only theirs. There is pattern in the middle east that keeps them stuck with undeveloped leadership and underdeveloped societies.

I would like to see what kind of mentality you would have after growing up in a warzone for 20 years.

5 minutes ago, Lila9 said:

Who cares who lived there 70 years ago? Why to cling to a land which your grandfather was expelled from 70 years ago if you have 50 other Muslim countries to live in? 

Are you serious?

Maybe because it was just 70 years ago?! Maybe because some of those people or their children are literally still alive???

Do you expect them to not hold grudge and resentment for what has happened? And that's not to mention that they have been continuously oppressed ever since.

So basically according to you, if I have enough firepower, I can go and kick all South Koreans or wherever you are from out of their country and set up my own state there. And there should be no issues since there are lots of Asian countries you can go live in.

Seriously, why don't you pack your bags right now and go live somewhere to Japan. I am living in your place starting tomorrow. There is no issue right? You are basically the same people anyway.

What? You don't want to? Well, I guess I will just shoot your whole family then and take your place anyway. My grandma lived there 2000 years ago, so it's a kind of sentimental geographical location to me, you know.

[Lila9]

2 minutes ago, Something Funny said:

I would like to see what kind of mentality you would have after growing up in a warzone for 20 years.

It doesn't justify commiting horrible crimes against innocent Israeli people. There are plenty refugees in the world and they don't do such things. People have to be accountable to their crimes regardless their level of development.

Don't you see how happy Palestinians were when Hamas committed the attack against Israel? When they prided this dead poor Israeli dead woman?

Is that OK?

5 minutes ago, Something Funny said:

Are you serious?

Of course.

Where is your criticism of Palestine and Hamas? you criticized me for taking one side but where is your diverse point of view?

7 minutes ago, Something Funny said:

Maybe because it was just 70 years ago?! Maybe because some of those people or their children are literally still alive???

Do you expect them to not hold grudge and resentment for what has happened? And that's not to mention that they have been continuously oppressed ever since.

 

They are not the first people who were explled in our history. People always were expelled during the history and they just moved on with their lives. They didn't bitch about it for 70 years, especially when they have so many other options.

Jews on the other side are persecuted people, you know what is a persecuted people? So persecuted that 6 millions of them were killed in the most horrific ways while the world were silent, don't they deserve one tiny safe place which is historically connected to them by blood? 

17 minutes ago, Something Funny said:

So basically according to you, if I have enough firepower, I can go and kick all South Koreans or wherever you are from out of their country and set up my own state there. And there should be no issues since there are lots of Asian countries you can go live in.

Seriously, why don't you pack your bags right now and go live somewhere to Japan. I am living in your place starting tomorrow. There is no issue right? You are basically the same people anyway.

What? You don't want to? Well, I guess I will just shoot your whole family then and take your place anyway. My grandma lived there 2000 years ago, so it's a kind of sentimental geographical location to me, you know.

You seem very emotional and aggressive. Chill out, and stop talking like an idiot. Don't make it personal. I'm not your enemy just because I think differently than you, I have the right to have my own opinions, I don't have to think like you. Understood?