Leo's Blog Post - 'Invalidating You'.

[mr_engineer]

https://www.actualized.org/insights/invalidating-you

Leo, I have a question for you. 

What did you hope to achieve by saying this?! 

From society's perspective, telling someone who is suffering that their suffering is an illusion, is a mean thing to say. Try going to a funeral and telling people that the deceased person who they're cremating 'never existed to begin with' and watch how they react. 

Edited October 26, 2023 by mr_engineer

[Razard86]

12 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

https://www.actualized.org/insights/invalidating-you

Leo, I have a question for you. 

What did you hope to achieve by saying this?! 

From society's perspective, telling someone who is suffering that their suffering is an illusion, is a mean thing to say. Try going to a funeral and telling people that the deceased person who they're cremating 'never existed to begin with' and watch how they react. 

Your making the same point he made. My gosh what do you hope to achieve by telling him the same thing...that he just did? Sigh....

[mr_engineer]

1 hour ago, Razard86 said:

Your making the same point he made. My gosh what do you hope to achieve by telling him the same thing...that he just did? Sigh....

No, I'm not. He made a statement, I'm asking a question. They're not the same! 

[Breakingthewall]

7 hours ago, mr_engineer said:

From society's perspective, telling someone who is suffering that their suffering is an illusion

Suffering is not an illusion, it is a real part of the human psyche. The human psyche is as real as anything else. It is possible to take a step back and leave the human psychological construction, the energetic patterns that form in your mind, but that does not mean that they are not real. The differentiation between real and imaginary does not make sense, it implies that there is a god, who is real, imagining a dream, which is unreal. I believe that this is a wrong vision, it would be more that there are levels of density of reality.

[Arthogaan]

8 hours ago, mr_engineer said:

What did you hope to achieve by saying this?! 

He just told the truth. And he recognizes that its a mean thing. Does not change the fact that it's true. Do you disagree with it?

Edited October 26, 2023 by Arthogaan

[Razard86]

9 hours ago, mr_engineer said:

No, I'm not. He made a statement, I'm asking a question. They're not the same! 

Open your eyes, 

 

He said: At the end of his post. "Truth is way more serious than people are ready to handle, so usually its best to keep it to yourself. When someone comes crying to you about their misery, you give them comfort, not Truth. An important lesson in your spiritual journey will be learning to meet people where they’re at, not where you’re at. I’ve made this mistake many times."

And you said "From society's perspective, telling someone who is suffering that their suffering is an illusion, is a mean thing to say. Try going to a funeral and telling people that the deceased person who they're cremating 'never existed to begin with' and watch how they react. "

^^^ITS THE SAME GOT DAMN THING!!!! This is why I said...MANY OF YOU need to learn reading comprehension. Your mind is so biased you select out what you WANT to see and ignore what is there. 

You said try saying at a funeral and he said don't do it!!! So both you and him ARE IN AGREEMENT!!!! Stop creating fights that aren't there!!! You probably do this in your personal life all the time. Half listen to people and accuse them of saying things they don't say!! This is why I said..when you are not honest you corrupt your mind and corrupt those around you. 

[mr_engineer]

4 minutes ago, Razard86 said:

Open your eyes, 

 

He said: At the end of his post. "Truth is way more serious than people are ready to handle, so usually its best to keep it to yourself. When someone comes crying to you about their misery, you give them comfort, not Truth. An important lesson in your spiritual journey will be learning to meet people where they’re at, not where you’re at. I’ve made this mistake many times."

And you said "From society's perspective, telling someone who is suffering that their suffering is an illusion, is a mean thing to say. Try going to a funeral and telling people that the deceased person who they're cremating 'never existed to begin with' and watch how they react. "

^^^ITS THE SAME GOT DAMN THING!!!! This is why I said...MANY OF YOU need to learn reading comprehension. Your mind is so biased you select out what you WANT to see and ignore what is there. 

You said try saying at a funeral and he said don't do it!!! So both you and him ARE IN AGREEMENT!!!! Stop creating fights that aren't there!!! You probably do this in your personal life all the time. Half listen to people and accuse them of saying things they don't say!! This is why I said..when you are not honest you corrupt your mind and corrupt those around you. 

My original question was - what's the point of invalidating someone's pain/trauma? 

If you're not even going to tell someone that their pain is an illusion, what's the point of this insight to begin with? To 'see for yourself' that their pain is an illusion for you?! I mean, it already is! And it doesn't take a genius to see that, just some narcissism. 

Let's not talk about other people's pain for a second. Let's talk about our own. Say, you have a health-problem that's causing you pain. What is the point being made here? Is it that the health-problem is an illusion, or the pain is an illusion? If you say that the health-problem is an illusion, that would make sense. Because the definition of a 'problem' would be biased. But, I seriously doubt that the pain that's being felt is an illusion. 

[Razard86]

1 minute ago, mr_engineer said:

My original question was - what's the point of invalidating someone's pain/trauma? 

If you're not even going to tell someone that their pain is an illusion, what's the point of this insight to begin with? To 'see for yourself' that their pain is an illusion for you?! I mean, it already is! And it doesn't take a genius to see that, just some narcissism. 

Let's not talk about other people's pain for a second. Let's talk about our own. Say, you have a health-problem that's causing you pain. What is the point being made here? Is it that the health-problem is an illusion, or the pain is an illusion? If you say that the health-problem is an illusion, that would make sense. Because the definition of a 'problem' would be biased. But, I seriously doubt that the pain that's being felt is an illusion. 

Everything in life is an illusion this is what every deep metaphysical teaching says its called MAYA which means illusion. Even science is finding out that it is an illusion.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-universe-is-not-locally-real-and-the-physics-nobel-prize-winners-proved-it/

There is research going into the ability to reduce physical pain through meditation as well.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4941786/

The important thing about these topics is the power of your mind and how you cannot seperate your mind and reality because reality IS MIND.

The same mind that allows you to dream and imagine things is not a human mind....it is the mind of God, REALITY ITSELF.

And you can doubt all you want. But doubting something without actually investigating it is ARROGANCE because you are coming to a conclusion without investigating.

To come to a conclusion before investigation is to PREJUDGE. Want to know where human prejudice comes from? You are currently doing it.

See how human nature works? 

[mr_engineer]

3 minutes ago, Razard86 said:

Everything in life is an illusion this is what every deep metaphysical teaching says its called MAYA which means illusion. Even science is finding out that it is an illusion.

Couple of questions. 

• When you say 'everything is an illusion', in the 'everything', are you only including finite forms? Or, are you also including Infinity/The Formless? 
• Let us assume, for a second, that survival is real. That the ego is real and that survival is a real concern. Would trauma/suffering/pain still be an illusion, if this assumption were true? Or, would it have to be real? 

[Dazgwny]

It’s a top blog post and extremely accurate 

[Razard86]

4 hours ago, mr_engineer said:

Couple of questions. 

• When you say 'everything is an illusion', in the 'everything', are you only including finite forms? Or, are you also including Infinity/The Formless? 
• Let us assume, for a second, that survival is real. That the ego is real and that survival is a real concern. Would trauma/suffering/pain still be an illusion, if this assumption were true? Or, would it have to be real? 

Real, Illusion, are subjective concepts...so first I would have to understand what Real means to you. From a certain perspective you can say Reality is Unreal, or an illusion, from another perspective you can say Reality is Absolutely Real!! So it depends on what perspective we are talking from.

Your experience of Reality or Life if you want to use that word is based on what state of consciousness you are in. From a certain state of consciousness what you call your life is realized to be PURE IMAGINATION, No different than your night time dreams. But from a certain state of consciousness life to you is REAL....because you are not in state to perceive or experience it any different way. 

So for a person who is in a human state of consciousness and has not had a near death experience, mystical experience, psychedelic experience, for them the ego is real and life is real and it is completely understandable why they feel this way. The only way you can ever convince a human in state of consciousness that reality is a dream, and illusion is if they are open to that type of experience and willing to drop all prior knowledge to investigate this. Outside of that willingness they are not going to ever receive it outside of physical death.

To understand what the absolute is...close your eyes....notice you can feel sensations....and you are aware of these sensations. Understand that the feeling of the sensations and being aware of the sensations are one and the same. Investigate this until you can discover what I mean by that. Once you discover that...then you discover that everything is just sensations being aware of themselves. Now understand...these sensations disappear and reappear. Where are they disappearing into?...NOTHING.....come to realize that these sensations...are also NOTHING....how do we know this? Because they are constantly appearing out of nothing and returning to nothing....if they are the same thing which is a sensation that is aware of itself then this awareness must be nothing....

So one part of you is nothing....that never changes and the other part of you is nothing that appears as something. But the something is ALWAYS CHANGING. Like a person who always changes his story...you would call them a liar because they are not consistent. Well appearance is not consistent....it keeps on changing. So THIS is why they call it an illusion because it is not consistent. You as a human identity are always changing....so how can you be true...when you keep on changing? So this is why they call it maya or an illusion or unreal or a lie, because it is inconsistent.

But notice this.....without change there can be no progression no journey, and change is death. So notice if the truth is what is....and change is the disappearance of what is...then to understand what truth is you must include what isn't. Once you expand your definition to include what isn't as equal to what is...then you learn the truth that even a lie is the truth.

Once you understand this then you learn there is no difference between a lie and the truth, than illusion and real. But you can only truly realize this when you can understand that everything is a dream, an appearance, pure imagination. Until you can see Sonic the Hedgehog as equally real as you and not as a concept, you must experience that Sonic is just as real as your human body. Until you experience this, you are stuck behind a mental conceptual prison, that divides reality into what you conceptually believe is true and not true and project that onto reality thus corrupting your sensual experience of reality. We call this the material, physical, state of consciousness of the average human.

TL:DR There is no difference between a lie and the truth, than illusion, and real but you must experience this not conceptually believe this. 

[Princess Arabia]

Did you read the blog post in it's entirety. Why do humans love to defend their limitations, why do we love to defend our suffering, why do we not want to be set free from mental slavery, why do we not want to realize Truth, why do we want control so much, why don't we want to be liberated and we try to ostracize those who try to show us how to do that. 

We love our suffering so much that we go seeking for things to suffer about. If I told someone that I was an apple, they would laugh at me and call me silly then go about their day, if I tell someone I am God and so are they, they might want to kill me or tell me I'm blasphemous and probably not want to befriend me. Why is that. Why not just laugh and call me silly and go about your day.

I said in a previous post that It's so obvious, and the more I live and experience life, the more I'm really seeeing how true that statement is. I'm also adding on to what is so obvious every freaking day and this post is showing me even more how obvious it is that we love our suffering. This forum is showing me how we love to suffer. I'm seeing it with the few people I encounter how they love to suffer. Of course, it's not consciously done, but something deep down is propelling this.

We act as if we're running from pain and moving towards pleasure but that's just a facade. We love our suffering. Don't you dare tell me how not to suffer. It is what's driving me, it's what keeping me from boredom. I wouldn't know what to do with myself. So now we go and dig up some shit and twist it around just to create some fucking drama to suffer about. When we've had enough of one we move to the next. It's so fucking obvious. 

[mr_engineer]

1 hour ago, Razard86 said:

Real, Illusion, are subjective concepts...so first I would have to understand what Real means to you. From a certain perspective you can say Reality is Unreal, or an illusion, from another perspective you can say Reality is Absolutely Real!! So it depends on what perspective we are talking from.

The immediate experience you're having in your present moment - that's 'reality'. (I'm ignoring the upper-case and lower-case letters right now, for argument's sake). 

If you want my opinion of it, there you go. Others may not agree, though. 

1 hour ago, Razard86 said:

Your experience of Reality or Life if you want to use that word is based on what state of consciousness you are in. From a certain state of consciousness what you call your life is realized to be PURE IMAGINATION, No different than your night time dreams. But from a certain state of consciousness life to you is REAL....because you are not in state to perceive or experience it any different way. 

So for a person who is in a human state of consciousness and has not had a near death experience, mystical experience, psychedelic experience, for them the ego is real and life is real and it is completely understandable why they feel this way. The only way you can ever convince a human in state of consciousness that reality is a dream, and illusion is if they are open to that type of experience and willing to drop all prior knowledge to investigate this. Outside of that willingness they are not going to ever receive it outside of physical death.

Here's my question to you. It's a very simple question (spoken like Arnab lol). If you stub your toe and you feel pain in there as a result of it, is that pain 'real' or 'imaginary', according to you? 

I think that no matter how enlightened you are, if you stub your toe, you will feel pain. 

1 hour ago, Razard86 said:

Once you understand this then you learn there is no difference between a lie and the truth, than illusion and real. But you can only truly realize this when you can understand that everything is a dream, an appearance, pure imagination. Until you can see Sonic the Hedgehog as equally real as you and not as a concept, you must experience that Sonic is just as real as your human body. Until you experience this, you are stuck behind a mental conceptual prison, that divides reality into what you conceptually believe is true and not true and project that onto reality thus corrupting your sensual experience of reality. We call this the material, physical, state of consciousness of the average human.

TL:DR There is no difference between a lie and the truth, than illusion, and real but you must experience this not conceptually believe this. 

We have a reflex in our eye that closes the eye when a fly comes near it. Are you saying that this reflex goes away once you become enlightened, because you realize that 'your body is an illusion, the fly is an illusion, so we don't have to protect the body anymore'?! 

[mr_engineer]

36 minutes ago, Princess Arabia said:

Did you read the blog post in it's entirety. Why do humans love to defend their limitations, why do we love to defend our suffering, why do we not want to be set free from mental slavery, why do we not want to realize Truth, why do we want control so much, why don't we want to be liberated and we try to ostracize those who try to show us how to do that. 

It's because we have desires and unburned karma. Those require us to impose certain limitations on the world outside. But, because we are God and what's 'outside' is what's 'inside', the limitations also get imposed internally. 

37 minutes ago, Princess Arabia said:

We love our suffering so much that we go seeking for things to suffer about. If I told someone that I was an apple, they would laugh at me and call me silly then go about their day, if I tell someone I am God and so are they, they might want to kill me or tell me I'm blasphemous and probably not want to befriend me. Why is that. Why not just laugh and call me silly and go about your day.

It's because they're unconscious of what God is. If they were conscious of what God is and if what they believed were actually true, i.e. if God really were separate from yourself and themselves, they would, in fact, laugh, call you silly and go about their day. 

39 minutes ago, Princess Arabia said:

I said in a previous post that It's so obvious, and the more I live and experience life, the more I'm really seeeing how true that statement is. I'm also adding on to what is so obvious every freaking day and this post is showing me even more how obvious it is that we love our suffering. This forum is showing me how we love to suffer. I'm seeing it with the few people I encounter how they love to suffer. Of course, it's not consciously done, but something deep down is propelling this.

You can't be serious. Ask someone who's been stranded in a desert for a couple of days how much they 'loved their suffering'. 

40 minutes ago, Princess Arabia said:

We act as if we're running from pain and moving towards pleasure but that's just a facade. We love our suffering. Don't you dare tell me how not to suffer. It is what's driving me, it's what keeping me from boredom. I wouldn't know what to do with myself. So now we go and dig up some shit and twist it around just to create some fucking drama to suffer about. When we've had enough of one we move to the next. It's so fucking obvious. 

Consciously, we are moving away from pain and towards pleasure. Unconsciously, when we move towards more suffering, it seems like we love our suffering. We really don't, it sucks. 

No, it's not 'keeping us from boredom'. We chase pleasure, consciously, because we think that that's the answer. When it turns out to not be the answer, we surrender to the suffering. Then, we realize that the ego that was running from it was an illusion and that the suffering was caused by the perception of separation. Then, we become free from it. 

[Princess Arabia]

2 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

It's because we have desires and unburned karma. Those require us to impose certain limitations on the world outside. But, because we are God and what's 'outside' is what's 'inside', the limitations also get imposed internally. 

It's because they're unconscious of what God is. If they were conscious of what God is and if what they believed were actually true, i.e. if God really were separate from yourself and themselves, they would, in fact, laugh, call you silly and go about their day. 

You can't be serious. Ask someone who's been stranded in a desert for a couple of days how much they 'loved their suffering'. 

Consciously, we are moving away from pain and towards pleasure. Unconsciously, when we move towards more suffering, it seems like we love our suffering. We really don't, it sucks. 

No, it's not 'keeping us from boredom'. We chase pleasure, consciously, because we think that that's the answer. When it turns out to not be the answer, we surrender to the suffering. Then, we realize that the ego that was running from it was an illusion and that the suffering was caused by the perception of separation. Then, we become free from it. 

You see how you talk now, you almost sound like an Enlightened being. Sometimes you seem like a different person in different posts and comments. It's amazing. It's so obvious. Lol God is insane.

[mr_engineer]

@Leo Gura, I'm going to tell you my issue with you taking this stance publicly. 

This could open the door wide open for zen-devilry, i.e. narcissism disguised as 'enlightenment'. People can weaponize this idea to justify not being empathetic towards others who are suffering. At least, that's what I think, this is my humble, inexperienced opinion. 

Am I right or wrong? If I'm wrong, please correct me. Thanks. 

[Javfly33]

we can not take you seriously with that avatar profile mate

[SeaMonster]

8 hours ago, mr_engineer said:

This could open the door wide open for zen-devilry, i.e. narcissism disguised as 'enlightenment'. People can weaponize this idea to justify not being empathetic towards others who are suffering. At least, that's what I think, this is my humble, inexperienced opinion. 

Am I right or wrong? If I'm wrong, please correct me. Thanks. 

There is no "could" here; it's a "has" and "will."

If you haven't studied NLP (Leo has) you may not understand what is going on, but he is using NLP to mindfuck vulnerable people with the kind of words he chooses, these contextually floaty, vague, imprecise words like "real" and "illusion", allowing the vulnerable person to select the most negative interpretation to make sense of what he is saying.

This is kinda like hypnosis, but you can do hypnosis negatively or positively.

There is no door open for zen devilry -- IT IS Zen Devilry.

Read a book on NLP if you don't believe me (most of you lazy fuckers won't bother of course.)

This is Evil NLP shit.

 

[Razard86]

10 hours ago, Princess Arabia said:

Did you read the blog post in it's entirety. Why do humans love to defend their limitations, why do we love to defend our suffering, why do we not want to be set free from mental slavery, why do we not want to realize Truth, why do we want control so much, why don't we want to be liberated and we try to ostracize those who try to show us how to do that. 

We love our suffering so much that we go seeking for things to suffer about. If I told someone that I was an apple, they would laugh at me and call me silly then go about their day, if I tell someone I am God and so are they, they might want to kill me or tell me I'm blasphemous and probably not want to befriend me. Why is that. Why not just laugh and call me silly and go about your day.

I said in a previous post that It's so obvious, and the more I live and experience life, the more I'm really seeeing how true that statement is. I'm also adding on to what is so obvious every freaking day and this post is showing me even more how obvious it is that we love our suffering. This forum is showing me how we love to suffer. I'm seeing it with the few people I encounter how they love to suffer. Of course, it's not consciously done, but something deep down is propelling this.

We act as if we're running from pain and moving towards pleasure but that's just a facade. We love our suffering. Don't you dare tell me how not to suffer. It is what's driving me, it's what keeping me from boredom. I wouldn't know what to do with myself. So now we go and dig up some shit and twist it around just to create some fucking drama to suffer about. When we've had enough of one we move to the next. It's so fucking obvious. 

This is why I love you....you actually face the truth...yes human's love suffering and yes they do it to be entertained. Why is this the case?

Suffering= Meaning. Suffering comes from the duality of victory and defeat, the good and the bad. To tell someone that reality is nothing is to strip life of its meaning. The ego is deeply attached to value, to survival, to duality, because it makes the ego feel real. To teach and point towards the absolute robs life of meaning to the underdeveloped ego's eyes. They don't realize that after integration meaning actually increases in scope because you realize all meaning is relative so everything has intrinsic meaning.

So do you see the hilariousness of this? The ego is in search of its own meaning, and wants to have unconditional love for itself but it gets in its own way because it perceives unconditional love as death. They see it as the most evil thing and demonize it. You might say....well the ego can't help be this way...EXACTLY. God designed the ego to be this way. Why? To see how badly does the ego desire truth. The purpose of life....is to figure out why you as God created your human body, your life circumstances, and what the hell is going on. 

Everything else....is just a distraction. Someone will say how do you know this? Easy because when you were a child that was your mission. You were asking Why Why Why Why? All the got damn time. You wanted to know....what the hell was going on. It's just at a certain point...you gave up....

[Razard86]

9 hours ago, mr_engineer said:

The immediate experience you're having in your present moment - that's 'reality'. (I'm ignoring the upper-case and lower-case letters right now, for argument's sake). 

If you want my opinion of it, there you go. Others may not agree, though. 

Here's my question to you. It's a very simple question (spoken like Arnab lol). If you stub your toe and you feel pain in there as a result of it, is that pain 'real' or 'imaginary', according to you? 

I think that no matter how enlightened you are, if you stub your toe, you will feel pain. 

We have a reflex in our eye that closes the eye when a fly comes near it. Are you saying that this reflex goes away once you become enlightened, because you realize that 'your body is an illusion, the fly is an illusion, so we don't have to protect the body anymore'?! 

1. You can feel pain in a dream. In fact your body cannot tell the difference between what you call a dream/memory and what you call reality. If you study people who have take psychedelics, or consciousness altering substances....they can feel sensations just as real as what they call real life.

2. For me, I can watch someone on Youtube get slapped in the face and feel the sting of the slap as if my human avatar got slapped. So notice...even though my human self didn't get slapped, I felt it as if I got slapped. So is that pain I experienced REAL? Or am I dreaming it? 

Also according to science....all your pain is just bioelectrical signals. So let me ask you...are bioelectrical signals that appear in response to an activity...is that real? What if you feel pain in your toe because someone else stubbed their toe...is that pain real? What if I told you that you wired your brain to be selfish so it only responds to what happens to your human body, and all enlightenment is, is showing you that you can wire your brain to feel everything around you.

What if I told you that your sense of separation was just neurological conditioning that is reinforced by your neurological experience and that all psychedelics do is drop that conditioning and put it in its default state and that's why people feel connected with everything? What if I told you the only reason humans are so mean to each other....is because they cannot feel each other's pain. Understand that the cells in your body only know they are ONE because they can FEEL the connection. Currently only enlightened beings can feel that connection.

 

 

Edited October 27, 2023 by Razard86