The problem is not Hamas

[DawnC]

2 hours ago, lina said:

with this logic, all countries in the world had no chance to evolve into a better society, since most countries in this world were colonized and some had primitive and violent tendencies. 

Not at all. The Iranian society, for example, is quite developed, and the Iranians are an impressive people. If there comes a time where they can overthrow their barbaric regime, there is a substantial possibility for a moderate and stable alternative to take hold.

2 hours ago, lina said:

 I already answered this point, it's up to western gov to back off intervening into the middle east and give it its full right to develop. 

Maybe, but the most realistic assumption is that there are regions that may deteriorate into chaos and brutality. 

2 hours ago, lina said:

Irresponsible in a practical way?  yes because they failed to see the massive power imbalance in the world and didn't acknowledge that Israel being backed by the entire western world will cause their inevitable defeat. However, irresponsible moralistically? I don't think so because from the first place Zionists had no right to kick off people from their lands and turn them into refugees, if this happened to you I don't think you would be okay with having half of your house taken away. 

Israelis need to acknowledge first their deadly mistake of choosing to create a Zionist state in a country that had people, it already happened and nothing could be changed about it yes, but at least acknowledge this and show genuine desire to establish peace with Palestinians, make reparations and withdraw completely from the west bank, that's if it had to be the 2 state solution. Western governments always had their ways of instilling moderate governments, like they did in the west bank, so this extreme fear of Hamas is just strange to be honest, and in any case, Israel is responsible for taking this first step because they started this whole conflict, so it's better they take it sooner than later. 

Responsibility in the political sense requires recognizing your capabilities and limitations and acting accordingly. And it also requires acknowledging the consequences of your behavior. This was hardly ever a thing in Palestinian leadership. If you disagree with this, you might have a gap in your historical knowledge of the actual facts of the events before and after the establishment of Israel. (Israel btw has shown a desire to establish peace with Palestinians numerous times).

Your viewpoint is firmly rooted in the belief that Israel's mere existence is immoral because you see them as thieves who stole the land from the Palestinians. I don't share the same view, although I can understand it. The thing is, you are so caught up with your concept of historical justice that this makes your whole perspective of the current situation and historical events biased.

 

Edited October 25, 2023 by DawnC

[Breakingthewall]

41 minutes ago, DawnC said:

Not at all. The Iranian society, for example, is quite developed, and the Iranians are an impressive people

Yes, but of the more than 80 million Iranians, how many are those sophisticated people you speak of? the majority would vote for the Islamists for fear of going to hell. 

In the West we have had the Enlightenment, Protestantism, the French Revolution and Communism that have helped us free ourselves from those chains. Muslims do not seem given to that type of revolution for now, although it would be important for them to make them.

[lina]

5 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

Muslims choose the radicals because the average Muslim feels increasingly identified with radical Islam. The Islam do not look to the future, they are stagnant, burdened by the chains of their religion, more concerned with appearing to be good Muslims to their neighbors, doing Ramadan and covering their women/slaves as much as possible than with evolving as a society. Without dictatorial regimes, radical Islamists would take power, moderates are seen as corrupt cowards, sold out to the west.

I disagree with this religious people are not necessarily radical or extremist. 

[lina]

2 hours ago, DawnC said:

The thing is, you are so caught up with your concept of historical justice that this makes your whole perspective of the current situation and historical events biased.

You can't expect peace to prevail with no restorative justice. It could be a very shallow form of "peace" like what's between Israel and middle eastern governments, but that doesn't represent the actual majority of people. 

[Happy Lizard]

49 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Muslims do not seem given to that type of revolution for now, although it would be important for them to make them.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age

 

[Breakingthewall]

1 minute ago, Happy Lizard said:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age

 

Yes I know, The Chinese are also an ancient culture, the Indians, the Romans, the Greeks, there are many, but they are evolving towards more openness, not less. Only Muslims are stuck that way. All other cultures are alive, Islam is dead, it is a zombie that seems alive but is not.

[Happy Lizard]

@Breakingthewall well this is a strong bias against Islam and muslim/arabs in general, and not saying that as an attack on you. Just saying what you are pointing out lacks some imagination for a possibility that you cannot see because it has not yet happened. For example before airplanes where invented the idea of them sounded ludicrous, yet human imagination prevailed as we all can see. Islam and the Arab fell significantly backward in it’s spiral development after the Mongols attack. We have to be open minded and Imagine what if the same thing would have happened to the Renaissance period Western world with the Mongols? How destabilizing that would have been. It would have probably sent the Western world a level or two back in the spiral. 
 

It’s just a matter of imagination, Islam was knocking on the door of orange but we just can’t imagine that with the current day mental pictures that come to mind when you think “islam”. How will that change ? Well it will change when economical factors change, I’ve had this conversation before, even with Leo but there seems to be a very strong Idea that Muslims/Arabs can not develop to beyond blue. 
 

here’s one example of how Egypt is has developed on the Spiral:

 

https://youtu.be/-Xc1b1L_Qhc?feature=shared

Of course this can never be convincing unless you are willing to mingle with a good number of Egyptians, but you can just count it as one account of what is possible in theory.

[Breakingthewall]

2 minutes ago, Happy Lizard said:

very strong Idea that Muslims/Arabs can not develop to beyond blue. 

Yes, they could, They just have to make a revolution. The Chinese put their emperor to work as a gardener, the Muslims should parade figures of Muhammad in the gay parades around the world, and stop being so incredibly stupid

[DawnC]

2 hours ago, lina said:

You can't expect peace to prevail with no restorative justice. It could be a very shallow form of "peace" like what's between Israel and middle eastern governments, but that doesn't represent the actual majority of people. 

Then let me rephrase that: The thing is, you are so caught up with your concept of historical justice that this makes your whole perspective of the current situation and historical events biased. 

The kind of peace you are talking about requires a lot of things. For example, mutual understanding and respect. You are struggling with viewing the other side's perspective, let alone the Palestinians. The Palestinians are also caught up with their concept of historical justice. The Israelis were ready long ago.

The type of peace you are talking about is not a realistic possibility for the Palestinians because their mindset and culture lack other necessary elements, such as political stability, education, awareness, and essentially any appreciation for peace. Palestinian society does not value peace. That's just the way it is, no matter what you believe is just.

[DawnC]

3 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

Yes, but of the more than 80 million Iranians, how many are those sophisticated people you speak of? the majority would vote for the Islamists for fear of going to hell. 

In the West we have had the Enlightenment, Protestantism, the French Revolution and Communism that have helped us free ourselves from those chains. Muslims do not seem given to that type of revolution for now, although it would be important for them to make them.

I'm not sure that's right. I think there is a significant moderate faction in Iran's society, and even under their barbaric regime, the society is pluralistic and open to some extent. It is not a western society but I believe the situation is more hopeful for the Iranian people than in Arab societies. 

[DawnC]

1 hour ago, Nabd said:

There is no "Arab societies". 

What do you mean by that? Arab doesn't exist its really a broad term and doesn't reflect anything on the ground.

 

I'm mostly talking about countries in the Middle East. Iraq, Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Yemen, Libya, Palestinian Territories.

This doesn't mean there aren't impressive individuals in those countries. I'm referring to the overall state of affairs and the trajectory.

Edited October 25, 2023 by DawnC

[lina]

12 hours ago, DawnC said:

The type of peace you are talking about is not a realistic possibility for the Palestinians because their mindset and culture lack other necessary elements, such as political stability, education, awareness, and essentially any appreciation for peace. Palestinian society does not value peace. That's just the way it is, no matter what you believe is just.

Have you actually interviewed every Palestinian (including those in the west bank, Jerusalem, refugees in the other countries, as well as Palestinians inside Israel) and asked them if they desire peace or not? Palestinians are normal humans, they definitely desire peace, not without justice though. 

12 hours ago, DawnC said:

The kind of peace you are talking about requires a lot of things. For example, mutual understanding and respect. You are struggling with viewing the other side's perspective, let alone the Palestinians. The Palestinians are also caught up with their concept of historical justice. The Israelis were ready long ago.

Nothing justifies the Zionist perspective from the start, Palestinians welcomed them in their homes as refugees when they were escaping war, but Zionists insisted to separate themselves and took over their lands, changed their cities, their culture, established a new country with new language on the cost of Palestinian lives. That's never an acceptable thing. So of course a lot of Israelis were ready before them because they knew it wasn't their right to begin with. 

Edited October 26, 2023 by lina

[DawnC]

1 hour ago, lina said:

Have you actually interviewed every Palestinian (including those in the west bank, Jerusalem, refugees in the other countries, as well as Palestinians inside Israel) and asked them if they desire peace or not? Palestinians are normal humans, they definitely desire peace, not without justice though. 

Not every 'normal' human definitely desire peace. And there is a difference between individuals will and the societies structure and value system. Those are two major misconceptions. Try to investigate the Palestinian social structure, values and belief system (including all places you have mentioned) with an open mind and tell me what you see. Don't seek out impressive individuals (some of whom I know personally). Study the society.

1 hour ago, lina said:

Nothing justifies the Zionist perspective from the start, Palestinians welcomed them in their homes as refugees when they were escaping war, but Zionists insisted to separate themselves and took over their lands, changed their cities, their culture, established a new country with new language on the cost of Palestinian lives. That's never an acceptable thing. So of course a lot of Israelis were ready before them because they knew it wasn't their right to begin with. 

I understand that you hold this belief. I also acknowledge that there are certainly moments in history where, even after examining an issue from all perspectives, the moral stance is clear as you suggest. But in this particular conflict, it isn't such a straightforward case at all (and I'm taking a soft approach here). It goes deeper than just understanding Israel's perspective. It's about seeking an accurate, undistorted version of history. Your viewpoint is historically inaccurate. I thought about writing it down, but I'm starting to wonder if it would be a good use of my time. I hope you'll consider taking some time to investigate this matter with an open mind.

And by the way, realize that this discussion doesn't contradict my original assessment. Even if you are correct, expecting and fighting for historical justice can be unrealistic, unwise, and irresponsible. And the Palestinian society can be the current major obstacle for peace, even if historical justice is on their side. 

 

Edited October 26, 2023 by DawnC

[zazen]

Good post OP.

Most people condemn the Hamas attack, but it would be wise to condemn also what lead to it for terrorists aren't made so in a vacuum. This 'othering' from both sides will never bring peace, if there is any worthy war it is to go to war with the conditions that may corrupt you into terrorism. Terrorists are people whose conscience is clouded by trauma caused by the terror of the conditions they find themselves in. That trauma becomes brutally manifest in terrorist reaction to actions and conditions imposed on them by people who claim to be the victims. Which occupier in history has ever claimed to be victim? Did the British claim victimhood when colonising the planet or America when subjugating the red Indians with their superior capability. 

4 hours ago, DawnC said:

And by the way, realize that this discussion doesn't contradict my original assessment. Even if you are correct, expecting and fighting for historical justice can be unrealistic, unwise, and irresponsible. And the Palestinian society can be the current major obstacle for peace, even if historical justice is on their side. 

An Isreali spokesperson called Palestinains 'animals'. If you cage people into un livable hellish conditions like animals, next to the occupiers of their land who seem to be living in heaven like conditions, they will lash out like animals to free themselves of that cage. The reason they elected Hamas was because in extreme conditions with no hope in site that is a last resort. PLO in West Bank were cozying up to Israeli sentiments and not doing anything about the settlements, they were incompetent and capitulated in the Palestinians eyes. Any chance for a two state solution becomes increasingly unviable by settlements coming in and not only settling in one area but in a Swiss cheescake like fashion scattered, making it even more impossible to ever regain those territories in a deal. If Palestinians are so 'savage' and 'underdeveloped' as many people have put it, why would they feel comfortable to live amongst them and be flanked by them? 

Any proposal fell short of fairness and the meeting of minimum standards set by international law. Hamas don't have anything to do with the West Bank - and the West Bank is Israel's proof to show the Palestinians all over including Gaza that theres a scenario in which they can have a just peace and existence but the situation in West Bank opposes that completely - theres still settler violence, expansion, increased checks and control of movement, apartheid like conditions. The burden of proof is on the one with control of the situation.

It is also false to conflate technological and economic capability with character or consciousness. I understand we like to generalise entire regions into spiral dynamic colours for brevity's sake and it does serve a purpose, but its much more complex than that. You can be developed in one domain and not in others, and their are major differences amongst generations within a society. People would be surprised to know that the younger generation of Palestinians may be more closer to those in the West in their perspectives - even in the West the whole Okay Boomer meme is an example of the chasm in spiral stage and generational development.

The West claims moral development and sets out human rights and laws, yet fails to adhere to it themselves which is made evident in the double standards of the media, selective morality and curtailing of freedom of speech - what actually exists is convenient speech. When freedom of speech is given, your freedom of reach is cut when that speech goes against vested interests. The world watches this and becomes disillusioned, even Westerners themselves are and exist in a cognitive dissonance within the West - for what their civilisation claims isn't what is delivered. And this makes the world more dangerous, for if the 'developed' West don't follow what they preach why should they? 
 

Do past historical experiences and injustices trump present day laws including the justice system? 

When school shooters in the West are among the classrooms does it ever come to mind to bomb the whole school? 

Edited October 26, 2023 by zazen

[Samsonov]

I would like to give some context to the internal affairs in Israel was an indirect cause of those events, As I have been born and raised in Israel.

The central-left population has been rebelling against the current government, especially Netanyahu which has been deceitful and unclear in its intent.

What I believe was really going on was a shift in democratic balance toward the right, the simple fact that fundamentalist make on average many more children that do the average leftist, they have just gained democratic power, but naturally increased the exiting finical inequality, cultural gaps and inner tensions. The situation has gotten to a point that seemed to lead to a civil war in its worse.

I have mentioned this to try to force what will happen next, Hamas has seized the opportunity for an attack, with Israel displaying signs of weakness and lack of cohesion. I believe that this war will mark the change of a new rule over Israel, as I see many past leftist turning against their previous positions and claiming revenge and punishment for the Palestinians. This is what the right was waiting for in was, it was inevitable they will rise to power and gain more control, we might even witness the rise of an Orthodox Jew state.

To be fair, this is what the Orthodox Jews predicted that will happen, they have been praying and visualising which I want to say has incurred an attractive power onto reality.

The leftist green party has failed to solve the conflict in their naive way over the years, slowly losing their power, that is political power and faith...

It would take a stage yellow government to actually solve the root systematic issue, such a government does not exist anywhere in the world.

On a more personal note, becoming more aware of my own naivety and striving to ascend to stage yellow myself, I have decided to leave the country for the time being. War just causes most people to degrade to tribalism and close-mindedness, I find myself afraid to speak my mind lately, and lost hope for piece, at least not for the coming decades. There used to be talk of piece, we have not heard anyone seriously consider it for the last 5 years and you would be faced with cynicism if you did, and maybe rightly so... Internal affairs that have began from the time of the Covid-virus have been a distraction, national self-deception and denial. Now the disease of the system of Israel is rising to the surface and it ain't pretty... reality will catch up to you eventually, this has been an important lesson.

Edited October 26, 2023 by Samsonov

[Lila9]

56 minutes ago, Samsonov said:

I see many past leftist turning against their previous positions and claiming revenge and punishment for the Palestinians.

Intresting phenomena. Do you think it's more likely for them to regress to blue/blue-orange (in their political views and maybe also in general) or to evolve to yellow (by integrating less naive and more nuanced view on the conflict and some possible solutions to it) after the terror attack?

56 minutes ago, Samsonov said:

To be fair, this is what the Orthodox Jews predicted that will happen, they have been praying and visualising which I want to say has incurred an attractive power onto reality.

Do you personally believe that praying as a group could make such impact? How do you explain that?

56 minutes ago, Samsonov said:

and lost hope for piece

Do you think that peace is a realistic solution? I think that the Israel-Palestine conflict proved that it's impossible. What do you think Israel should do to in order to garantee peace with Palestine? 

 

 

Edited October 26, 2023 by Lila9

[Samsonov]

2 hours ago, Lila9 said:

Intresting phenomena. Do you think it's more likely for them to regress to blue/blue-orange (in their political views and maybe also in general) or to evolve to yellow (by integrating less naive and more nuanced view on the conflict and some possible solutions to it) after the terror attack?

I really don't know what is more likely, probably very few people are going to ascend to yellow, I can personally say that I felt the regression back to blue and group think, probably because I have got some integration to do in this stage, but his was not a healthy or conscious way to go about it.

2 hours ago, Lila9 said:

Do you personally believe that praying as a group could make such impact? How do you explain that?

I like to entertain the idea.

2 hours ago, Lila9 said:

Do you think that peace is a realistic solution? I think that the Israel-Palestine conflict proved that it's impossible. What do you think Israel should do to in order to garantee peace with Palestine? 

I really don't know what Israel should do, nor how to act as an Israeli citizen right now, this is why I am moving away. A step back feels like the conscious move

[DawnC]

On 10/26/2023 at 2:06 PM, zazen said:

Good post OP.

Most people condemn the Hamas attack, but it would be wise to condemn also what lead to it for terrorists aren't made so in a vacuum. This 'othering' from both sides will never bring peace, if there is any worthy war it is to go to war with the conditions that may corrupt you into terrorism. Terrorists are people whose conscience is clouded by trauma caused by the terror of the conditions they find themselves in. That trauma becomes brutally manifest in terrorist reaction to actions and conditions imposed on them by people who claim to be the victims. Which occupier in history has ever claimed to be victim? Did the British claim victimhood when colonising the planet or America when subjugating the red Indians with their superior capability. 

An Isreali spokesperson called Palestinains 'animals'. If you cage people into un livable hellish conditions like animals, next to the occupiers of their land who seem to be living in heaven like conditions, they will lash out like animals to free themselves of that cage. The reason they elected Hamas was because in extreme conditions with no hope in site that is a last resort. PLO in West Bank were cozying up to Israeli sentiments and not doing anything about the settlements, they were incompetent and capitulated in the Palestinians eyes. Any chance for a two state solution becomes increasingly unviable by settlements coming in and not only settling in one area but in a Swiss cheescake like fashion scattered, making it even more impossible to ever regain those territories in a deal. If Palestinians are so 'savage' and 'underdeveloped' as many people have put it, why would they feel comfortable to live amongst them and be flanked by them? 

Any proposal fell short of fairness and the meeting of minimum standards set by international law. Hamas don't have anything to do with the West Bank - and the West Bank is Israel's proof to show the Palestinians all over including Gaza that theres a scenario in which they can have a just peace and existence but the situation in West Bank opposes that completely - theres still settler violence, expansion, increased checks and control of movement, apartheid like conditions. The burden of proof is on the one with control of the situation.

Nothing happens in a vacuum. The problem is that when people observe the present situation, what they often see is an enormous power imbalance, which easily leads them to a victim-aggressor framework. Yes, the conditions of the Palestinians under Israeli control are terrible and discriminatory. Yes, the conditions in the Gaza Strip are dire. Yes, many Palestinians lost their homes in '48. Yes, Israel occupied Gaza and the West Bank in '67. But those things did not happen in a vacuum either. That is precisely my point. Let me give you two simple examples:

1) 'Many Palestinians lost their homes in 1948': The Jews in Israel endured horrific riots and attacks from Arab Palestinians in the early 20th century, long before they had any real power or a state. It was only after the Arabs initiated a war on Israel that Palestinians lost their homes. Almost all of them fled and weren't forcibly expelled. There were some terrible acts of deportation by Israelis, but this wasn't the majority, and it occurred when Israel's very existence was at stake, facing aggression from five Arab countries, including Arabs within Israel. It wasn't civilians being expelled by an army; it was a total civil war, with one side supported by nearly all the surrounding countries.

2) 'The conditions in the Gaza Strip are terrible'. They are. But why is that? Why are they so dire? There have been enormous amounts of money sent to Gaza from all over the world. Did Israel hinder Palestinians from developing their own society and improving their quality of life? In fact, Israel removed its settlers from their homes, withdrew the military, and departed. From a broader perspective, when Israel attempts to help Palestinians, to seek an end to the conflict, or takes steps to improve the situation, instead of welcoming these efforts and trying to build something positive from them, the Palestinians make the situation worse.

As to some of the things you have mentioned: Settler violence is troubling, yet it's relatively isolated and lacks significant support from the Israeli public. I do believe that the expansion of settlements was a foolish and irresponsible move on Israel's part (at least in areas that disrupted the continuous Palestinian-inhabited territories). And the Israeli spokesperson's statement may not have been nice, but it's certainly understandable given the circumstances. But my main point is that while these actions do create friction and may worsen the situation, they are far from being the core issue.

The misperception of the victim-aggressor creates a distorted version of history, leading to things like falsely labeling it as colonialism and an obsession with historical justice not only for the Palestinians but also in the Western world. This is a much more complicated conflict and it is wrong to address it this way. I think that this false perception creates a problem with acknowledging the deeper issue I was describing. It is not the deeper issue of who is right or who behaved immorally here, or made a mistake there. It is the deeper issue of why peace or any sort of solution is not a realistic possibility at all. Israel has more power, but all of its power is useless when it comes to changing the foundational principles that govern the Palestinian society.

"Any proposal fell short of fairness and the meeting of minimum standards set by international law." I don't think so. I think that any society with responsible leadership, that has an appreciation for peace and a desire to build a nation, would agree to those proposals if they were in the shoes of the Palestinians.

On 10/26/2023 at 2:06 PM, zazen said:

It is also false to conflate technological and economic capability with character or consciousness. I understand we like to generalise entire regions into spiral dynamic colours for brevity's sake and it does serve a purpose, but its much more complex than that. You can be developed in one domain and not in others, and their are major differences amongst generations within a society. People would be surprised to know that the younger generation of Palestinians may be more closer to those in the West in their perspectives - even in the West the whole Okay Boomer meme is an example of the chasm in spiral stage and generational development.

I agree that spiral dynamics can be simplistic, and an investigation of a society should be more nuanced than that. That doesn't mean there aren't cases where the gap in development is very much clear when you do investigate it. I hardly disagree with your assessment on young Palestinians. The Palestinian education system is incredibly problematic in so many ways. The society's sole role model is basically a killer, and this is a crucial element of the society. Young Palestinians differ in some manners, but they don't show any real signs of change in the important elements of the problem.

On 10/26/2023 at 2:06 PM, zazen said:

The West claims moral development and sets out human rights and laws, yet fails to adhere to it themselves which is made evident in the double standards of the media, selective morality and curtailing of freedom of speech - what actually exists is convenient speech. When freedom of speech is given, your freedom of reach is cut when that speech goes against vested interests. The world watches this and becomes disillusioned, even Westerners themselves are and exist in a cognitive dissonance within the West - for what their civilisation claims isn't what is delivered. And this makes the world more dangerous, for if the 'developed' West don't follow what they preach why should they? 
 

Do past historical experiences and injustices trump present day laws including the justice system? 

When school shooters in the West are among the classrooms does it ever come to mind to bomb the whole school? 

Stating that one culture or society is better than another in some crucial elements of human freedom and dignity is not the same as believing the culture or society you think is better is flawless. Clearly, there are problems within western societies. The comparison remains relative.

[DawnC]

@Leo Gura @Nabd @Lila9 @Samsonov

Just to provide a brutal example of this society's mentality, take a listen to this recording: https://www.ynetnews.com/article/by11zbthm6. This is a completely distorted spiritual-like catharsis this guy experiences from killing Jews. His family is literally weeping with a sense of fulfillment and joy.

I urge you not to solely rely on my assessment of this issue or base your assessment solely on this single recording. Take the time to study their educational system. You'll be amazed to see how this recording is not surprising at all.

Edited October 29, 2023 by DawnC

[Lila9]

16 hours ago, DawnC said:

@Leo Gura @Nabd @Lila9 @Samsonov

Just to provide a brutal example of this society's mentality, take a listen to this recording: https://www.ynetnews.com/article/by11zbthm6. This is a completely distorted spiritual-like catharsis this guy experiences from killing Jews. His family is literally weeping with a sense of fulfillment and joy.

I urge you not to solely rely on my assessment of this issue or base your assessment solely on this single recording. Take the time to study their educational system. You'll be amazed to see how this recording is not surprising at all.

Yes, this is the mentality. They are raised with this mentality of radical hatred for Jews and Israel.

Many people don't understand this.