The problem is not Hamas

[DawnC]

This post discusses the situation in Israel and Gaza, approaching it from a systemic point of view. My major claim is that the problem in Gaza runs much deeper than just the Hamas regime, It is a profound and structural issue within Palestinian society.

This is not a challenge unique to the Palestinians, but rather a broader problem within most of the Arab world. Democracy faces difficulties there because the society lacks adequate development. Let's consider Egypt, for example. After the removal of the dictator Mubarak, the Egyptians elected radicals, the Muslim Brotherhood, who were subsequently replaced by a military dictator, Sisi. It appears that there are three options for such countries: a moderate ruler who enforces policies with force (like in Jordan), extremist and oppressive regimes like those in Iran or Turkey, which have significant support from one segment of the population while suppressing the other, and the third is a bloody civil war like in Syria.

The Palestinians not only lack the development needed for an open, pluralistic, and democratic society, but they have also prevented any moderate movements from gaining any real influence. They consistently choose and support irresponsible leadership, leading them into further chaos and conflict. This pattern can be traced back to early Palestinian leader Amin al-Husseini (who, by the way, had affiliations with the Nazis, and this was before the establishment of Israel) and continues to this day with widespread public support for Hamas (even in the west bank). The Palestinian leadership has rejected all proposals for peace and fundamentally struggles with the ability to compromise due to their deep-seated concept of justice and twisted concept of honor. While their claims of connection and ownership of the land may make some sense from a Western perspective, understanding their society and level of development reveals that their claims differ fundamentally from what we might initially perceive from a Western mindset. These claims of ownership are deeply rooted in religious beliefs, and thus, the struggle for it is considered a holy war. However, the issue runs even deeper. Their religious mindset hinders their capacity for compromise, they tend to think in a zero-sum manner and the major isue is that they invest all their resources to their 'just cause,' neglecting the essential element necessary for a functioning country - building a society (education, infrastructure, institutions, etc). The most clear example is the allocation of funds and resources in Gaza, that received substantial donations from Europeans and Americans in past years and seems to be a worthless investment. 

Israel, on the other hand, has a strong society and institutions, and a relatively open and pluralistic culture. It does have a problematic right-wing faction (about 5%-10% of the population), however, the majority of Israelis (to my understanding about 60%) are located in the center of the political spectrum, and the radical left is negligible. Israel does have a problem with some of the settlers in the West Bank and with the way Palestinians are treated there. Nevertheless, Israel's control of the West Bank is rooted in a mindset fundamentally different from that of the Palestinians. Essentially, Israelis fear a recurrence of what happened in Gaza in the West Bank. Geographically, the West Bank is situated exactly in the middle of Israel and is only 20 minutes from Tel Aviv. There are factions that advocate holding onto all of the territory from a religious standpoint, but they constitute a small, insignificant minority in Israel. The perspective of most Israelis is focused on national security and strategic considerations.

As for the Gaza situation, from what I am aware of, Israel's army is doing more than any other military in the history of warfare to protect civilians in Gaza (and if you think otherwise, please provide an example). Israel possesses the capability to cause indiscriminate harm, yet consciously chooses to avoid it. As I understand it, to most Israelis, this is a deliberate choice (with varying degrees) and not solely a strategy to gain global public favor.

Clearly, the protection of civilians can be done to some extent and war is not a pretty thing.

To me, it is clear that Hamas cannot remain in control of the Gaza Strip, as any society that values and cherishes life cannot tolerate such a regime on its borders. Unfortunately, I believe that relying solely on the air force is not a viable means to remove Hamas from power. I'm uncertain about what would be beneficial for the region after Hamas is removed (if you guys have a take on this I would love to hear it). As far as I'm concerned, until there is a cultural revolution within Palestinian society, the situation will remain unchanged. Unfortunately, I don't think that we can enforce such change from the outside, neither through military intervention nor through impassioned speeches about freedom. Sadly, I don't foresee this changing in the near future, and sadly, they will continue to suffer until change comes from within.

I didn't address the influence of Iran, Syria, Hezbollah, and the Houthi movement. Clearly, as long as Palestinian radicalism is nurtured by Iran, this makes the situation even more difficult and complicated, But this post has become quite lengthy, so I'll leave it here.

 

edit:

I hope this goes without saying, but I'll mention it anyway - this clearly does not address individual Palestinians or Israelis, but rather the societies from a systemic point of view. I'm sure there are good and bad people everywhere. My concern is the functioning of the collectives.

Edited October 23, 2023 by DawnC

[Leo Gura]

The situation is similar to Iraq or Afghanistan after the war. Once you throw the current leadership out, there is a power vacuum which must be filled. A pro Western leadership is installed, but then there is an uprising from the grassroots of radicals to overthrow it. An internal war ensues.

Realistically Israel will have to occupy Gaza similar to the West Bank, with lots of military check-points, if they want to keep radical Islamists like ISIS from overrunning Gaza. This will embroil Israel is a decade's long occupation and war of insurgency.

Edited October 24, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Hardkill]

18 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

The situation is similar to Iraq or Afghanistan after the war. Once you throw the current leadership out, there is a power vacuum which must be filled. A pro Western leadership is installed, but then there is an uprising from the grassroots of radicals to overthrow it. An internal war ensues.

Realistically Israel will have to occupy Gaza similar to the West Bank, with lots of military check-points, if they want to keep radical Islamists like ISIS from overrunning Gaza. This will embroil Israel is a decade's long occupation and war of insurgency.

Has Israel tried to improve the infrastructure and level of education of the Palestinian people to help their society develop?

[How to be wise]

@Leo Gura They will set up permanent demilitarised zones across Gaza to ensure the IDF can quickly take down terrorists in Gaza. 

[DawnC]

5 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

The situation is similar to Iraq or Afghanistan after the war. Once you throw the current leadership out, there is a power vacuum which must be filled. A pro Western leadership is installed, but then there is an uprising from the grassroots of radicals to overthrow it. An internal war ensues.

I agree. I wonder if that pro Western leadership will be the PLO. They're already struggling to maintain their regime in the West Bank, and are considered collaborators by many Palestinians (and they already lost their hold in Gaza to Hamas in the past). They are different from Hamas but I am not sure to what extent (after what we saw with Hamas I really don't know).

5 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Realistically Israel will have to occupy Gaza similar to the West Bank, with lots of military check-points, if they want to keep radical Islamists like ISIS from overrunning Gaza. This will embroil Israel is a decade's long occupation and war of insurgency.

Essentially, I think you are correct, but the situation may be a bit different. There could be a way to avoid many checkpoints, and it is certainly preferable to avoid settlements in the middle of Gaza. I believe that, apart from the far-right faction, most Israelis do not want to settle in Gaza. This is especially true for Netanyahu, his Minister of Defense Galant, and Netanyahu's opposition, who joined his government during the war period. The way I see it, they are aiming for something in the direction of an 'A zone,' where the IDF can freely enter and exit, but the civilian population will not have close day-to-day contact with soldiers. I couldn't think of a better alternative...

 

6 hours ago, Hardkill said:

Has Israel tried to improve the infrastructure and level of education of the Palestinian people to help their society develop?

There were programs aimed at economic assistance, and there is support for essential utilities (not sure if the mindset that drove this was to help the Palestinian society develop). In terms of education, there were numerous civic initiatives, but as far as i am aware of there wasn't a structured, systemic program implemented by the Israeli government.

[Leo Gura]

Hamas kicked the PLO out of Gaza after Israel pulled out last decade.

The radicals always have a way of unseating the moderates because the moderate are not ruthless psychopaths.

[lina]

13 hours ago, DawnC said:

This is not a challenge unique to the Palestinians, but rather a broader problem within most of the Arab world. Democracy faces difficulties there because the society lacks adequate development. Let's consider Egypt, for example. After the removal of the dictator Mubarak, the Egyptians elected radicals, the Muslim Brotherhood.

This happened because Mubarak (who was a strong ally to the western governments) killed the opportunity for any secular or moderate movements by actively imprisoning any voices, leaving the room only for the Muslim brotherhood, who mostly used the poor and lured them with money and food to get their vote, which left the Egyptians to choose between a Pro-Mubarak regime candidate vs the Muslim Brotherhood,  even with that, I'd argue that the Muslim brotherhood in Egypt weren't even that radical but they were tainted as such in the media to get the widespread support for the military coup that followed. So the problem is not simply because " the society lacks adequate development." , rather the problem is that those regimes (that are backed by external powers) are actively working on inhibiting any development to ensure their survival. 

Edited October 24, 2023 by lina

[Hello from Russia]

9 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

The situation is similar to Iraq or Afghanistan after the war. Once you throw the current leadership out, there is a power vacuum which must be filled. A pro Western leadership is installed, but then there is an uprising from the grassroots of radicals to overthrow it. An internal war ensues.

Realistically Israel will have to occupy Gaza similar to the West Bank, with lots of military check-points, if they want to keep radical Islamists like ISIS from overrunning Gaza. This will embroil Israel is a decade's long occupation and war of insurgency.

The problem is that then they force their will upon them and people don't quite like when it happens

Especially if you are forced by people you hate that much 

[DawnC]

2 hours ago, lina said:

This happened because Mubarak (who was a strong ally to the western governments) killed the opportunity for any secular or moderate movements by actively imprisoning any voices, leaving the room only for the Muslim brotherhood, who mostly used the poor and lured them with money and food to get their vote, which left the Egyptians to choose between a Pro-Mubarak regime candidate vs the Muslim Brotherhood,  even with that, I'd argue that the Muslim brotherhood in Egypt weren't even that radical but they were tainted as such in the media to get the widespread support for the military coup that followed. So the problem is not simply because " the society lacks adequate development." , rather the problem is that those regimes (that are backed by external powers) are actively working on inhibiting any development to ensure their survival. 

You are addressing the cause, but I am more concerned with reality. If you eliminate all the moderates, the society left behind becomes extreme, unstable, and barbaric, at least on a collective level. But even if he had not taken the actions he did, the moderate movements in Egypt were weak and lacked significant support among the population, making their election unrealistic. The actual moderates were impressive individuals by the way, but sadly their influence on Egyptian society was negligible.

I disagree with your viewpoint on the Muslim Brotherhood. I believe it is quite the opposite. They know how to present themselves as somewhat moderate, but their ideology is fundamentally extreme and a significant portion of Egyptians either fail to see this or want it.

Edited October 24, 2023 by DawnC

[lina]

28 minutes ago, DawnC said:

You are addressing the cause, but I am more concerned with reality. If you eliminate all the moderates, the society left behind becomes extreme, unstable, and barbaric, at least on a collective level. But even if he had not taken the actions he did, the moderate movements in Egypt were weak and lacked significant support among the population, making their election unrealistic. The actual moderates were impressive individuals by the way, but sadly their influence on Egyptian society was negligible.

again this circles back to the core issue which is inhibiting development, in all shapes which includes poverty, poor education and lack of awareness . So getting rid of the radicals will not address the issue, instead, the focus should be on getting rid of the reasons or situations that make people choose radicals in the first place. 

[itsadistraction]

16 hours ago, DawnC said:

This post discusses the situation in Israel and Gaza, approaching it from a systemic point of view. My major claim is that the problem in Gaza runs much deeper than just the Hamas regime, It is a profound and structural issue within Palestinian society.

This is not a challenge unique to the Palestinians, but rather a broader problem within most of the Arab world. Democracy faces difficulties there because the society lacks adequate development. Let's consider Egypt, for example. After the removal of the dictator Mubarak, the Egyptians elected radicals, the Muslim Brotherhood, who were subsequently replaced by a military dictator, Sisi. It appears that there are three options for such countries: a moderate ruler who enforces policies with force (like in Jordan), extremist and oppressive regimes like those in Iran or Turkey, which have significant support from one segment of the population while suppressing the other, and the third is a bloody civil war like in Syria.

The Palestinians not only lack the development needed for an open, pluralistic, and democratic society, but they have also prevented any moderate movements from gaining any real influence. They consistently choose and support irresponsible leadership, leading them into further chaos and conflict. This pattern can be traced back to early Palestinian leader Amin al-Husseini (who, by the way, had affiliations with the Nazis, and this was before the establishment of Israel) and continues to this day with widespread public support for Hamas (even in the west bank). The Palestinian leadership has rejected all proposals for peace and fundamentally struggles with the ability to compromise due to their deep-seated concept of justice and twisted concept of honor. While their claims of connection and ownership of the land may make some sense from a Western perspective, understanding their society and level of development reveals that their claims differ fundamentally from what we might initially perceive from a Western mindset. These claims of ownership are deeply rooted in religious beliefs, and thus, the struggle for it is considered a holy war. However, the issue runs even deeper. Their religious mindset hinders their capacity for compromise, they tend to think in a zero-sum manner and the major isue is that they invest all their resources to their 'just cause,' neglecting the essential element necessary for a functioning country - building a society (education, infrastructure, institutions, etc). The most clear example is the allocation of funds and resources in Gaza, that received substantial donations from Europeans and Americans in past years and seems to be a worthless investment. 

Israel, on the other hand, has a strong society and institutions, and a relatively open and pluralistic culture. It does have a problematic right-wing faction (about 5%-10% of the population), however, the majority of Israelis (to my understanding about 60%) are located in the center of the political spectrum, and the radical left is negligible. Israel does have a problem with some of the settlers in the West Bank and with the way Palestinians are treated there. Nevertheless, Israel's control of the West Bank is rooted in a mindset fundamentally different from that of the Palestinians. Essentially, Israelis fear a recurrence of what happened in Gaza in the West Bank. Geographically, the West Bank is situated exactly in the middle of Israel and is only 20 minutes from Tel Aviv. There are factions that advocate holding onto all of the territory from a religious standpoint, but they constitute a small, insignificant minority in Israel. The perspective of most Israelis is focused on national security and strategic considerations.

As for the Gaza situation, from what I am aware of, Israel's army is doing more than any other military in the history of warfare to protect civilians in Gaza (and if you think otherwise, please provide an example). Israel possesses the capability to cause indiscriminate harm, yet consciously chooses to avoid it. As I understand it, to most Israelis, this is a deliberate choice (with varying degrees) and not solely a strategy to gain global public favor.

Clearly, the protection of civilians can be done to some extent and war is not a pretty thing.

To me, it is clear that Hamas cannot remain in control of the Gaza Strip, as any society that values and cherishes life cannot tolerate such a regime on its borders. Unfortunately, I believe that relying solely on the air force is not a viable means to remove Hamas from power. I'm uncertain about what would be beneficial for the region after Hamas is removed (if you guys have a take on this I would love to hear it). As far as I'm concerned, until there is a cultural revolution within Palestinian society, the situation will remain unchanged. Unfortunately, I don't think that we can enforce such change from the outside, neither through military intervention nor through impassioned speeches about freedom. Sadly, I don't foresee this changing in the near future, and sadly, they will continue to suffer until change comes from within.

I didn't address the influence of Iran, Syria, Hezbollah, and the Houthi movement. Clearly, as long as Palestinian radicalism is nurtured by Iran, this makes the situation even more difficult and complicated, But this post has become quite lengthy, so I'll leave it here.

 

edit:

I hope this goes without saying, but I'll mention it anyway - this clearly does not address individual Palestinians or Israelis, but rather the societies from a systemic point of view. I'm sure there are good and bad people everywhere. My concern is the functioning of the collectives.

The problem is clinging to beliefs and identities all of which are inherently false. We are living in the dark ages like monkeys hitting each other with sticks. 

[DawnC]

5 hours ago, lina said:

again this circles back to the core issue which is inhibiting development, in all shapes which includes poverty, poor education and lack of awareness . So getting rid of the radicals will not address the issue, instead, the focus should be on getting rid of the reasons or situations that make people choose radicals in the first place. 

Now you have shifted focus towards the solution. I believe it is crucial to first acknowledge the deep and fundamental nature of the problem. I would approach the solution with greater humility. If it were that straightforward, someone would have already addressed it. This is a profound issue with no easy fix or simplistic, naive solution.

3 hours ago, itsadistraction said:

The problem is clinging to beliefs and identities all of which are inherently false. We are living in the dark ages like monkeys hitting each other with sticks. 

Don't reduce the complexity of life to a bumper sticker slogan  

Edited October 24, 2023 by DawnC

[Lila9]

This is a very good take.

People don't understand that Israel doesn't have the privilege to not occupy the west bank. This occupation is essential for Israel's security, it ensures that terrorists from Palestine wouldn't murder innocent Israeli civilians.

As long as this is the Palestine's level of development, it's better to occupy them and be safe and alive rather than not to occupy them and be killed by terrorists in the most horrific ways. 

 

 

 

[itsadistraction]

18 minutes ago, DawnC said:

Don't reduce the complexity life to a bumper sticker slogan  

You (and the majority of people) make life way too complicated.

It's much easier to cut the root of the tree than try and cut each branch.

[lina]

13 hours ago, DawnC said:

. If it were that straightforward, someone would have already addressed it. This is a profound issue with no easy fix or simplistic, naive solution.

My point is that blaming the oppressed and imposing further restrictions will not help, if you genuinely desire a change then pressure the oppressor and hold him accountable to actually make a change. It's only complicated because current western governments enable this, but that won't be necessary a permanent thing 

Edited October 25, 2023 by lina

[lina]

12 hours ago, Lila9 said:

As long as this is the Palestine's level of development, it's better to occupy them and be safe and alive rather than not to occupy them and be killed by terrorists in the most horrific ways. 

Wow.. the ways people justify stealing and killing to survive on a stolen property. 

Edited October 25, 2023 by lina

[Lila9]

3 hours ago, lina said:

Wow.. the ways people justify stealing and killing to survive on a stolen property. 

I'm realistic. In Arab world Israel should speak Arabic. Facts prove that the nicer Israel, the more attacks it gets from Hamas aka ISIS.

They literally savages and if you can't see this but only justify terrorists who killed innocent Israeli people, something is very wrong with you. 

I've never seen Israeli soliders parading naked Palestinian women with thousands of Israeli people praising them on the streets.

I've never seen Israeli people burning Palestinian flag and screaming "death to Palestine"

There is no evidence of Israeli soliders raping Palestinian women, cutting stomachs of pregnant women and chopping body parts of Palestinian people and uploading it on TikTok. This is unique to Hamas/ISIS.

Why you justify it? Is that a conscious way to free Palestine?

Edited October 25, 2023 by Lila9

[DawnC]

1 hour ago, lina said:

My point is that blaming the oppressed and imposing further restrictions will not help, if you genuinely desire a change then pressure the oppressor and hold him accountable to actually make a change. It's only complicated because current western governments enable this, but that won't be necessary a permanent thing 

And my point isn't about placing blame. It's not about changing the situation either. It's about presenting things as they are. Please try to understand that I'm not in the business of badmouthing the Arab world or the Palestinians, I have a deep compassion for their suffering (my grandparents are from Iraq btw). I'm simply describing reality as I understand it.

My claim is that if you think that the problem of the Palestinians is Hamas's regime or the control of the West Bank by Israel, you misunderstand a fundamental issue. The Palestinian society (as a collective), at this moment, is incapable of having a stable, sovereign governing entity that is responsible and relatively moderate.

This issue cannot simply be labeled with an oppressor-oppressed framework. This is not a problem unique to Palestinians. The majority of the Arab world has completely failed to deal with the challenges of the modern era and still struggles with it. Many countries are still struggling to establish a stable regime to this day. And this traces back much before Israel was established. The Palestinian leadership behaved irresponsibly, with a hostile intolerant and barbaric approach before 1948.

Israel has definitely made mistakes in the past 75 years since it was established. But on a broader scale, both Israel's leadership and society have behaved relatively responsibly and have been in the business of compromise. This is the fundamental difference between the societies that I believe you fail to see. 

As far as the solution you propose, holding Israel accountable for its mistakes is fine. But I don't believe they have the ability to change the fundamental mindset of the Palestinians, even by withdrawing from all territory. A realistic assessment of what would happen if they were to leave suggests that the most likely scenario is of an ISIS-type regime emerging on their borders. Would you be willing to take that risk? That is an irresponsible and foolish decision from an Israeli perspective, and I think that viewpoint is justifiable. Thus it isn't much of a possible way for a solution... You also fail to realize that Israel's society is an open democratic society and they hold themself accountable for their mistakes without you.

On the other hand, there isn't much accountability on the other side. That is a fundamental element in the problem within Palestinian society that I discussed, touching the core issue. Who holds the Palestinian leadership accountable for their consistently reckless and irresponsible decisions, aggressive and barbaric attitude, and unwillingness to compromise? Who holds the Palestinian people accountable for supporting their leadership for decades? In a way, one can argue that holding them accountable and putting pressure on them might help foster a sense of responsibility and willingness to compromise from within Palestinian society and that can lead to a solution. But I don't really believe this can result in anything. Sadly, I don't foresee a solution in the foreseeable future.

[Breakingthewall]

22 hours ago, lina said:

So getting rid of the radicals will not address the issue, instead, the focus should be on getting rid of the reasons or situations that make people choose radicals in the first place. 

Muslims choose the radicals because the average Muslim feels increasingly identified with radical Islam. The Islam do not look to the future, they are stagnant, burdened by the chains of their religion, more concerned with appearing to be good Muslims to their neighbors, doing Ramadan and covering their women/slaves as much as possible than with evolving as a society. Without dictatorial regimes, radical Islamists would take power, moderates are seen as corrupt cowards, sold out to the west.

[lina]

1 hour ago, DawnC said:

My claim is that if you think that the problem of the Palestinians is Hamas's regime or the control of the West Bank by Israel, you misunderstand a fundamental issue. The Palestinian society (as a collective), at this moment, is incapable of having a stable, sovereign governing entity that is responsible and relatively moderate.

with this logic, all countries in the world had no chance to evolve into a better society, since most countries in this world were colonized and some had primitive and violent tendencies. 

1 hour ago, DawnC said:

This issue cannot simply be labeled with an oppressor-oppressed framework. This is not a problem unique to Palestinians. The majority of the Arab world has completely failed to deal with the challenges of the modern era and still struggles with it. Many countries are still struggling to establish a stable regime to this day. 

 I already answered this point, it's up to western gov to back off intervening into the middle east and give it its full right to develop. 

1 hour ago, DawnC said:

 The Palestinian leadership behaved irresponsibly, with a hostile intolerant and barbaric approach before 1948.

Irresponsible in a practical way?  yes because they failed to see the massive power imbalance in the world and didn't acknowledge that Israel being backed by the entire western world will cause their inevitable defeat. However, irresponsible moralistically? I don't think so because from the first place Zionists had no right to kick off people from their lands and turn them into refugees, if this happened to you I don't think you would be okay with having half of your house taken away. 

1 hour ago, DawnC said:

 But I don't believe they have the ability to change the fundamental mindset of the Palestinians, even by withdrawing from all territory. A realistic assessment of what would happen if they were to leave suggests that the most likely scenario is of an ISIS-type regime emerging on their borders. Would you be willing to take that risk? That is an irresponsible and foolish decision from an Israeli perspective, and I think that viewpoint is justifiable. Thus it isn't much of a possible way for a solution..

Israelis need to acknowledge first their deadly mistake of choosing to create a Zionist state in a country that had people, it already happened and nothing could be changed about it yes, but at least acknowledge this and show genuine desire to establish peace with Palestinians, make reparations and withdraw completely from the west bank, that's if it had to be the 2 state solution. Western governments always had their ways of instilling moderate governments, like they did in the west bank, so this extreme fear of Hamas is just strange to be honest, and in any case, Israel is responsible for taking this first step because they started this whole conflict, so it's better they take it sooner than later. 

Edited October 25, 2023 by lina