Palestine/Israel war - What can we do to stop this genocide?

[lina]

I haven't been able to focus or sleep well since the start of this conflict. The amount of injustice that is being inflicted on Palestinian civilians is making me sick to my stomach. The world's silence is making me lose faith in humanity. It's like we are watching history repeating itself all over again. This complete dehumanization of Palestinians is just sickening. I feel helpless and broken watching fellow humans, children and families living in hell at this moment waiting to die. Generation after generation they have been standing still hoping someday this occupation will come to an end. But it seems like the world has given up on them, while cheering Israel to annihilate them. 

I genuinely don't know how to cope with this amount of injustice. I want to help them, but I don't know how to. The border is closed from Egypt as Israel has bombed it multiple times. So, I am not sure if any aid is actually making it's way to civilians. 

What can we do as HUMANS to help? 

 

 

 

[lina]

@nuwu does that mean you see nothing can be done? 

[Setty]

I think helping people you interact with against going into murderous frenzy is pretty good approach. It's really jaw-dropping seeing people how quickly they can turn into murderous devils when they are witnessing great injustice.

Helping them understand the fact that we would do the same in their shoes, whether it is Hamas or Israel. We are not much more different than them. We are as much capable of these evils as them. We are just lucky we are not in their situation. Only when we realize this about ourselves we might be able to stop it when it is our turn to decide to tilt the world towards evil or good.

[lina]

I understand what you mean and it's true, but I am talking specifically about the current events. Gaza has no water or electricity and is being bombarded right now. Israel seems like having the intention to wipe out the entire area. Palestinians have nowhere to go. Wounded people are waiting to die in dark hospitals with no electricity. 

What can we do as humans around the world to push governments to stop this ongoing genocide and bring a halt to war crimes committed against civilians? 

Edited October 13, 2023 by lina

[eos_nyxia]

Personally, I tend to separate the need to defend oneself from the sort of endless moral justification and brigading that tends to go on when people are rationalizing their actions, and trying to feel good (or as good as possible) about playing their zero-sum games. Because hey, survival is involved. There may or may not be other options, especially when it feels like your back is against the wall.

Like, if someone is actively trying to kill you (like they're physically coming at you), and then you kill or maim them, yea. That's undeniably self-defense regardless of history. (Or say someone is trying to rape you also kill or maim them.) You were, in fact, actually defending yourself. It can be seen as a pragmatic thing (even if it is an unfortunate and far less-than-ideal). Adding extra rationalizations on top of the sheer survival need to defend yourself, that's strictly on you.

If you pre-emptively harm people in self-defense... even if the risk and response to your life are arguably justifiable.... you're still killing people. You're supporting the killing of people, including "innocent civilians", children, etc. Even if the deaths are actually accidental or not intended. Death is still death, if you actually care about that.

I guess it really rubs me the wrong way when people deflect from this truth. Yes, you're endorsing death and suffering to preserve yourself.  Be honest about it and don't deflect from it, don't avoid it, and don't douse it in layers and layers of moralism and justifications in order to deflect.

You're also basically having other people do your dirty killing work for you, and then parading around on your moral high horse as if you have clean hands. Ick. The blood is there on your hands one way or another, you being a part of that collective and also choosing to co-opt into it, despite your motivations, morals and values. Even if you're just nicely supporting the IDF and the state of Israel's action....

Death happened. You supported it for whatever reason that you did. Deal with it....

1 hour ago, lina said:

But it seems like the world has given up on them, while cheering Israel to annihilate them.

This is straight-up just sick. They're the mirror half of the people on the other side doing the same thing.

Edited October 13, 2023 by eos_nyxia

[Setty]

@lina I think the time is now to convince people not to go into murderous rage in the name of justice. There are reports of killings around the world because of the heat of this conflict.

There might also be some humanitarian organizations that can take finantial contributions. 

Other than that it is up to the world powers to push or not against Israel.

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, lina said:

while cheering Israel to annihilate them. 

That's not what is happening.

Hamas is being hunted down because such people cannot be allowed to lead.

[eos_nyxia]

18 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

That's not what is happening.

Hamas is being hunted down because such people cannot be allowed to lead.

Maybe she's just talking about vocal people on social media rather than the actions of the Israeli government? I have seen Israelis on social media doing what basically amounts to this, in their state of hurt, anger, and fear. Their mind is only for their own (which is understandable) and convincing others to side with them in an extremely polarizing way: you're either with us and agree with everything we say, or you're pro-terrorism. I don't think that they particularly give a shit about any Palestinians at this point. Perhaps they once truly did, perhaps not, but clearly not anymore.

The opposite has been true too for the other side though....

Edited October 13, 2023 by eos_nyxia

[lina]

@eos_nyxia the situation in Israel just doesn't seem purely self-defense if they are actively occupying illegal land with no intention to stop. 

[Danioover9000]

@lina

1 hour ago, lina said:

I haven't been able to focus or sleep well since the start of this conflict. The amount of injustice that is being inflicted on Palestinian civilians is making me sick to my stomach. The world's silence is making me lose faith in humanity. It's like we are watching history repeating itself all over again. This complete dehumanization of Palestinians is just sickening. I feel helpless and broken watching fellow humans, children and families living in hell at this moment waiting to die. Generation after generation they have been standing still hoping someday this occupation will come to an end. But it seems like the world has given up on them, while cheering Israel to annihilate them. 

I genuinely don't know how to cope with this amount of injustice. I want to help them, but I don't know how to. The border is closed from Egypt as Israel has bombed it multiple times. So, I am not sure if any aid is actually making it's way to civilians. 

What can we do as HUMANS to help? 

 

 

 

   My solution I'd offer to the UN or the new future order, is to let HAMAs get taken out by Israel, but if Israel keeps on land grabbing and pushing this Zionism ethnostate onto Gaza and Palestinians, do economic sanctions, for any goods imported/exported from Israel to other countries, increase tariffs, and keep introducing other kinds of sanctions until Israel capitulates. Another offer is to lessen or stop migration, by New Yorkers  or other citizens that identify as Jews to stop coming to Israel to purchase houses and live in them, and demand Israel to stop building houses by taxing them very high, make those houses extremely expensive in the global market. It's ridiculous, let native Israelis in that land purchase land, and stop advertising Jews from other countries flock to your land to buy houses and other real estate.

Edited October 13, 2023 by Danioover9000

[PurpleTree]

I‘m not sure about this guy

but he and his community are doing a „peace meditation“ on sunday if that‘s something you want to do.

 

[lina]

@Leo Gura I actually meant world leaders of countries in Europe and USA who said with no hesitation that they support Israel's right to wage war on Gaza to defend itself, knowing very well that Israel is the transgressor as it has been violating the international laws for too long, and knowing that most of the victims will be the civilians.

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Hamas is being hunted down because such people cannot be allowed to lead.

Is that what's really happening though? Hamas was only created in the 80s and Israel has been going on with their plans to take in more land with no regard to Palestinians. Also, they are targeting hospitals, cars and they officially told Egypt if they tried to send aid vehicles they will get bombarded. They are asking the entire population to evacuate knowing very well they have no place to go. Even if that was their purpose, do you think getting rid of Hamas, while killing half of the population will solve the conflict? 

[Leo Gura]

@lina Well, you have to ask yourself, How else can Hamas be eliminated? Because it certainly cannot be allowed to stay in power.

The unfortunate reality is that eliminating Hamas will involve a lot of collateral damage. Hamas is a cancer within the Palestinian population. Eliminating a cancer is very difficult and comes with serious side-effects.

I wish that wasn't the case, but that's the situation. Peace negotiations can resume once Hamas is eliminated and Palestinians have sane leadership.

Edited October 13, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Danioover9000]

@Leo Gura

2 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@lina Well, you have to ask yourself, How else can Hamas be eliminated? Because it certainly cannot be allowed to stay in power.

The unfortunate reality is that eliminating Hamas will involve a lot of collateral damage. All that can be done is that it can be minimized. But now that Israeli's are so pissed off, they have little motivation to minimize it.

   So, in that case, if it's now unavoidable, to minimize the collateral damage, which do you think is likely in the future: Israel losing appeal and international support because of high collateral damage, say for every 1 HAMAs killed, 10 to 100 Palestinian innocents is killed, and high increase of humanitarian issues in west bank/Gaza, or nothing changes in the international stage?

Edited October 13, 2023 by Danioover9000

[Leo Gura]

7 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

which do you think is likely in the future: Israel losing appeal and international support because of high collateral damage and high increase of humanitarian issues in west bank/Gaza, or nothing changes?

That depends on how aggressive Israel gets. How many war crimes they do.

Unless it gets really over the top, I don't see Israel losing international support.

We will have to wait and see how much Israel resists doing war crimes.

Edited October 13, 2023 by Leo Gura

[StarStruck]

6 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@lina Well, you have to ask yourself, How else can Hamas be eliminated? Because it certainly cannot be allowed to stay in power.

The unfortunate reality is that eliminating Hamas will involve a lot of collateral damage. Hamas is a cancer within the Palestinian population. Eliminating a cancer is very difficult and comes with serious side-effects.

I wish that wasn't the case, but that's the situation. Peace negotiations can resume once Hamas is eliminated and Palestinians have sane leadership.

Palestinian people are hamas and hamas are Palestinian people.  You can’t eradicate, the one without the other because they got only radicalized because they got robed of their human dignity. If you experienced only 50% of that suffering you would turn radical too. 

[eos_nyxia]

28 minutes ago, lina said:

@eos_nyxia the situation in Israel just doesn't seem purely self-defense if they are actively occupying illegal land with no intention to stop. 

Excuse my ignorance, I wasn't following the Palestine-Israel situation before recently too closely or participating in these types of dialogues. Do you mean that the state of Israel exists at all as a settler colonialist state?

What can feasibly be done about what's already been done at this point? Someone's going to have to give up some claim to land somewhere. It's just a matter of scale and degree. On an emotional and psychological level, perhaps at some point, we can all prioritize stopping the playing of zero-sum games when it comes to physical things, whether it involves our survival or not.

If you can choose to do this at your weakest, most emotional, most vulnerable moment, even if it's simply to decide on some level: I've had enough of the way this makes me feel and how it defines my experience.... you are extremely powerful and you have an immense amount of self-restraint. People apparently think of this as superhuman or something, I guess.

Realistically speaking, and not just in worldwide conflicts that involve large groups of people, but also on the individual level:  perpetrators and invaders end up getting more, and people who get invaded and violated lose more. Even long after the original violation has occurred. That's how systemic oppression tends to work. Perps and invadors tend to be blind by default to the opposite side.

And realistically speaking, often the invaded person (or people) have to give up the right to conflict and ownership (at least temporarily, at least in some way) without somehow being completely and utterly disempowered and defeated in the process. Disempowered people unfortunately tend to get stepped on by default. Privileged people COULD give it up, but rarely will unless you convince them that somehow something is fundamentally in it for them. You have to sell them sugar rather than offering acid and spice, etc. Such is humanity.

On a purely personal level: I both empathize and find it understandable, but I also think the attachment, self-identification, and entitlement to specific bits of land is a bit mindboggling. Which is why I sometimes feel like monoethnic/ monoculturally identifying people are going to be death of all of us, lol.

You don't own land and you don't own the Earth, at least no more than it also "owns" you. It doesn't intrinsically belong to you. Not in that tight-fisted way. It's not your God-given right as a human being, not from some "God" or from some religious or cultural prerogative or doctrine. It is a space on a planet that is so graciously hosting your body and human experience right now for a rather short period of time. You may identify with it and you may live in wholly, but it does not strictly belong to you and whoever you designate as being "enough like you".

 

Edited October 13, 2023 by eos_nyxia

[Leo Gura]

3 minutes ago, StarStruck said:

Palestinian people are hamas and hamas are Palestinian people.

That's far from the case.

Don't insult the Palestinians with such talk.

Edited October 13, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Vrubel]

14 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

That's far from the case.

Don't insult the Palestinians with such talk.

I have been keeping an eye on ALjazeera, they are totally glorifying the "resistance"  and they seem to gloat about the fact that Israel will have such a hard time fighting them because they say "Hamas are the people", the "Idea of Hamas will always exist", again in a very gloating tone. Even though Aljazeera has a lot of clout it's definitely a toxic propaganda channel even by Arab standards. 

Edited October 13, 2023 by Vrubel

[Leo Gura]

@Vrubel Al Jazeera English does good, fair coverage. Don't know what you mean.

Edited October 13, 2023 by Leo Gura