Palestine/Israel war - What can we do to stop this genocide?

[Danioover9000]

   Maybe bring back Trump:

 

[lina]

21 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

The difference is that first of all that was 80 years ago. Back then carpet bombing civilians with Napalm was acceptable. Today is considered a war crime.

Secondly Japan had bullied and terrorized Asia for 15 years and killed millions and also had attacked the USA even though USA did not take any of Japan's land nor kill its civilians. Hamas is a byproduct of Israel actions towards Palestine, it is Israel that is responsible for creating them. 

I agree. comparing WW2 wars to what's currently happing in Palestine and Israel is not accurate, because Palestinians didn't start the aggression or invade anyone, all their actions were a reaction to the occupation. For this reason it's within Israel's responsibility to take the necessary steps to solve the conflict. 

Edited October 15, 2023 by lina

[Breakingthewall]

58 minutes ago, lina said:

all their actions were a reaction to the occupation

Maybe, But if those reactions are to gang rape girls and then torture them and spread the images, and burn families alive and approach children and kill them in cold blood, something would have to be done as a defense, right?  

because it is one thing to bomb Pearl Harbor and another to break the arms and legs of a 20-year-old girl after raping her and parading her in agony through the streets of your city while the entire population screams with joy.

[lina]

4 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

Maybe, But if those reactions are to gang rape girls and then torture them and spread the images, and burn families alive and approach children and kill them in cold blood, something would have to be done as a defense, right?  

because it is one thing to bomb Pearl Harbor and another to break the arms and legs of a 20-year-old girl after raping her and parading her in agony through the streets of your city while the entire population screams with joy.

If we spent the day listing the gruesome atrocities of each side it will never end, if we want to solve the problem we need to focus on the root cause and not get lost in reactions.

[Breakingthewall]

16 minutes ago, lina said:

If we spent the day listing the gruesome atrocities of each side it will never end, if we want to solve the problem we need to focus on the root cause and not get lost in reactions.

Yes, solving this is the important thing, but imagine that in Tel Aviv people come out to dance in the streets to celebrate the bombing of Gaza. What arrangement could there be? To find a solution there have to be will to find it

Edited October 15, 2023 by Breakingthewall

[lina]

1 hour ago, Breakingthewall said:

Yes, solving this is the important thing, but imagine that in Tel Aviv people come out to dance in the streets to celebrate the bombing of Gaza. What arrangement could there be? 

That's a very different situation. First of all you're comparing between oppressed people that have been treated as subhuman for a very long time and live in an actual open air prison,  to them it was a form of rebellion and a break out of an illegitimate prison. Israelis on the other hand,  live a much more safe and privileged life. And even with that, an Israeli official already called Palestinians "animals", and I have seen countless Israeli officials and citizens who are cheering for what is currently happening in Gaza.  Also, I think you should look up the term "Atrocity Propaganda" and be careful to not believe in everything the media shares because most of those horrendous incidents have not even been confirmed yet.  

[Zega]

On 10/14/2023 at 1:01 AM, SurfingBird said:

Expecting Israel to just outright lift checkpoints, security checks and surveillance while Hamas still exists is telling Israel to forfeit the lives of their citizens, and that is simply not going to happen, especially after we've seen what Hamas would do with increased freedom.

I don't believe I suggested any of that. You can allow people to leave Gaza and still have checkpoints, what are you talking about?

[Breakingthewall]

1 hour ago, lina said:

and I have seen countless Israeli officials and citizens who are cheering for what is currently happening in Gaza. 

Sure. There is a lot of hate involved. It seems impossible that a solution is impossible, but it is so.

[itsadistraction]

8 hours ago, lina said:

I agree. comparing WW2 wars to what's currently happing in Palestine and Israel is not accurate, because Palestinians didn't start the aggression or invade anyone, all their actions were a reaction to the occupation. For this reason it's within Israel's responsibility to take the necessary steps to solve the conflict. 

Biden, in his speech, compared Hamas attack a few days ago to the 9/11 attacks.  Do you think that is a fair comparison? Did you lose sleep over the USA's response to 9/11? It's ok if you did or didn't. It was probably similar in many ways. The USA isn't perfect either just like Isreal. And the USA bombed the heck out of the middle East in response (despite the UN being against it). 

I am sorry you are struggling with this issue. Watch Leo's video on destruction or Maybe Chapter 5 from the Toa Te Ching can help you..

"Heaven and Earth are not kind.

They regard all things as offerings.

The sage is not kind.

He regards people as offerings.

Is not the space between Heaven and Earth like a bellows?

It is empty, but lacks nothing.

The more it moves, the more comes out of it.

A multitude of words is tiresome,

Unlike remaining centered."

Edited October 16, 2023 by itsadistraction

[lina]

On 10/15/2023 at 5:14 AM, Nabd said:

I am myself very pessimistic when it comes to politics.

Look, during the battle of Aleppo alone in the Syrian civil war, there has been more casualties and more refugees than what's happened in Gaza and thats just one battle out of thousands. Do you hear about this in the news?

The normalization of killings in the middle east is terrifying and it depresses me. But don't worry because in a month or two the news will stop posting about it and it'll be alright again!

@Nabd Unfortunately that's very true. What happened in Syria was extremely traumatic even for the observer I can't imagine how it would be for Syrians. 

[lina]

16 hours ago, Sabth said:

https://www.instagram.com/p/CyWZOuzLMCd/?igshid=MWlnaXdxcTY1aHg4eQ==

How does it feel like to be in a rubble. 

Yeah the sort of media that doesn't headline the western mainstream media. 

Edited October 16, 2023 by lina

[Lila9]

13 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

Maybe, But if those reactions are to gang rape girls and then torture them and spread the images, and burn families alive and approach children and kill them in cold blood, something would have to be done as a defense, right?  

because it is one thing to bomb Pearl Harbor and another to break the arms and legs of a 20-year-old girl after raping her and parading her in agony through the streets of your city while the entire population screams with joy.

Everything is justified to "free palestine" even performing such violence towards innocent Israeli Jewish people, doing second holocaust to them. That certainly will free Palestine. Don't you know? 

All the Jewish and Israeli people deserve to die by torture, because Palestine should be free. It's a legitimate way to defend Palestine. Killing babies, burning people alive and raping women. There are no limits to what we are entitled to do against Jewish people because our goal to free Palestine justify everything. Everything.

So what if Hamas causes Palestine great suffer, more than Israel can ever cause, it's much more convenient to hate Israel and Jews. It always was.

Who cares about Israeli people and their life? Their lives are cheap. More important is to free palestine which means to erase all the Israeli and Jews from Israel aka Palestine. Don't they have other place to go? Fuck them, who cares, we need more Arab and Muslim countries in the world, there are not enough Muslim and Arab countries in this world.

 

 

 

Edited October 16, 2023 by Lila9

[Breakingthewall]

22 minutes ago, Lila9 said:

Everything is justified to "free palestine" even performing such violence towards innocent Israeli Jewish people, doing second holocaust to them. That certainly will free Palestine. Don't you know? 

All the Jewish and Israeli people deserve to die by torture, because Palestine should be free. It's a legitimate way to defend Palestine. Killing babies, burning people alive and raping women. There are no limits to what we are entitled to do against Jewish people because our goal to free Palestine justify everything. Everything.

So what if Hamas causes Palestine great suffer, more than Israel can ever cause, it's much more convenient to hate Israel and Jews. It always was.

Who cares about Israeli people and their life? Their lives are cheap. More important is to free palestine which means to erase all the Israeli and Jews from Israel aka Palestine. Don't they have other place to go? Fuck them, who cares, we need more Arab and Muslim countries in the world, there are not enough Muslim and Arab countries in this world.

 

 

 

10 hours ago, lina said:

 

Yes, I also tend to that vision but there are some things that make me think...why did they let Hamas in? Why did it take them 12 hours to send the army? I have seen videos where Hamas militiamen walk calmly. Weren't you in a hurry? Did they know that the army would not come? Besides, why does Israel continue to occupy territory? What is his goal doing this? sink Palestine? It's all murky, quite dirty. Right after the massacre I saw everything very clearly, but I see it less and less clear every time.

Edited October 16, 2023 by Breakingthewall

[Lila9]

30 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Yes, I also tend to that vision but there are some things that make me think...why did they let Hamas in? Why did it take them 12 hours to send the army? I have seen videos where Hamas militiamen walk calmly. Weren't you in a hurry? Did you know that the army would not come? Besides, why does Israel continue to occupy territory? What is his goal doing this? sink Palestine? It's all murky, quite dirty. Right after the massacre I saw everything very clearly, but I see it less and less clear every time.

Israeli army was unprepared and too carefree, they didn't imagine that this could ever happened. I heard that most of the military forces were in the west bank because there were attacks from there.

I know that Hamas was training and planning this for a year, the Israel army knew about that but didn't connected the dots, they thought that it would be something minor like it always was. They under estimated Hamas.

The Israeli right wing government is also responsible to this oversight, I think someone in the government have already admitted that.

I know that the army received information at 3:00 am Saturday about something that may happen from Gaza in the morning, the senior officers of the army discussed it on the phone and decided to further discuss it on 8:00 am. They didn't expect that it will happen in 3 hours, at 6:00 am.

Why Israel occupies the territory? I'm not the one to ask, but I assume that it wants to survive and thrive like any other country, and if it wasn't occupy Palestine, it wouldn't survive because Palestine isn't interested in co existence but in total occupation either at the expense of Jews lives. Both sides want 100% of Israel/Palestine territory. It's a question of what side is entitled to the land more.

I recognize that Palestinians lived in Israel in the past hundreds of years but I do believe that Israel is more entitled to this land because Jews lived there prior to Muslim Arabs and for longer. People forget that someone occupied Jews and took their homes in Israel/Palestine before Zionists did this to the Palestinians. From Israeli perspective, they returned to the land that someone have stolen from them a thousands years ago.

 

 

Edited October 16, 2023 by Lila9

[jimwell]

26 minutes ago, Lila9 said:

I recognize that Palestinians lived in Israel in the past hundreds of years but I do believe that Israel is more entitled to this land because Jews lived there prior to Muslim Arabs and for longer. People forget that someone occupied Jews and took their homes in Israel/Palestine before Zionists did this to the Palestinians. From Israeli perspective, they returned to the land that someone have stolen from them a thousands years ago.

The problem with this reasoning is that it doesn't end. Who occupied Israel 1,000; 2,000; or 3,000 years ago? How about 5,000 years ago? Any group of people who lived in the land before the Jews can claim it as their own.

If it was true that Gabor Mate, a Jew gave up his dream of a Jewish state because it would mean the destruction of the native Palestinians, he has my respect. That's a manifestation of maturity. 

[Lila9]

@jimwell

27 minutes ago, jimwell said:

Any group of people who lived in the land before the Jews can claim it as their own.

The people who lived before Jews haven't claimed this territory yet, maybe because they have already immersed into Jews population and doesn't exist as a culture anymore.

The conflict now is between Jews and Muslim Arabs and if there is one who's more historically entitled to this land, in my opinion and common sense, those are Jews. 

27 minutes ago, jimwell said:

If it was true that Gabor Mate, a Jew gave up his dream of a Jewish state because it would mean the destruction of the native Palestinians, he has my respect. That's a manifestation of maturity. 

There is nothing immature in wanting a land if you are a culture without a land. This is the most reasonable thing to do if you are a culture with no land, especially if your culture is pursued by lots of enemies.

I respect Gabor Mate but he sees this from a stage green naive perspective, and as a Jew who lives a safe life not in Israel and not under constant attack from terrorists like Hamas.

It doesn't mean that the destruction of Palestinians is good or ok, it's sad and painful, but I believe that Israel has in general more mercy and good intentions towards innocent Palestinians than vice versa.

Israel's army literally told Palestinians to be evacuated so they will be able to destroy the terrorists without destroying innocent civilians, this is pretty noble in my opinion.

Hamas, on the other hand believes in killing innocent Israeli and Jews as much as possible.

History proves that the more letinant Israel with Hamas is, the worse.

Israel's big mistake is to be to naive, believing that it's possible to make peace with antisemitic radical Muslims.

Edited October 16, 2023 by Lila9

[jimwell]

15 minutes ago, Lila9 said:

Hamas, on the other hand believes in killing innocent Israeli and Jews as much as possible.

If somebody steals your land, that's a valid reaction.

 

14 minutes ago, Lila9 said:

There is nothing immature in wanting a land if you are a culture without a land. This is the most reasonable thing to do if you are a culture with no land, especially if your culture is pursued by lots of enemies.

But at the expense of the native Palestinians, hence, immature.

 

16 minutes ago, Lila9 said:

Israel's army literally told Palestinians to be evacuated so they will be able to destroy the terrorists without destroying innocent civilians, this is pretty noble in my opinion.

Yes, it is noble. But cutting food and water supply is barbaric. That's as bad as what the Nazis did to the Jews.

 

17 minutes ago, Lila9 said:

The people who lived before Jews haven't claimed this territory yet, maybe because they have already immersed into Jews population and doesn't exist as a culture anymore.

The conflict now is between Jews and Muslim Arabs and if there is one who's more historically entitled to this land, in my opinion and common sense, those are Jews. 

You didn't know there may be cultural and genetic continuity between the ancient Canaanites and some of the modern populations in the region, particularly among the local Palestinian and Lebanese populations.

Who are the Canaanites?

The Canaanites were one of the earliest known indigenous peoples of the region, and their presence in the area that now encompasses present-day Israel and Palestine dates back thousands of years. Their civilization flourished in the ancient Near East.

The Canaanites had a rich culture and religious tradition. They worshipped a pantheon of deities, with gods and goddesses associated with various aspects of life, nature, and fertility. The most well-known of these deities was Baal, the storm and fertility god. Their religious practices included rituals and sacrifices, often performed in temples and sacred spaces within their city-states.

Here are the Sources:

• "The Genomic History of the Middle East" (Marc Haber, et al., 2016)

  This study, published in the journal PLOS Genetics, explores the genetic diversity and historical migrations in the Middle East. It discusses the genetic connections between ancient and modern populations.

• "The Canaanites: The People of the East" (Marc Van De Mieroop, 2019)

  This book explores the history and culture of the Canaanites and their interactions with neighboring peoples. It may provide information on their historical legacy.

Suppose it's true that the descendants of Canaanites are the Palestinians and Lebanese, would you (you might be a Jew) and other Jews honor the truth? Would you give Israel back to the modern Canaanites?  Of course no, because you don't care about truth or goodness. You only care about yourself and your biases.

[Breakingthewall]

1 hour ago, Lila9 said:

know that the army received information at 3:00 am Saturday about something that may happen from Gaza in the morning, the senior officers of the army discussed it on the phone and decided to further discuss it on 8:00 am. They didn't expect that it will happen in 3 hours, at 6:00 am.

How is it possible that it took them 12 hours to come after receiving distress calls? Israel is very small, they have helicopters, trained special forces, etc. 

1 hour ago, Lila9 said:

Why Israel occupies the territory? I'm not the one to ask, but I assume that it wants to survive and thrive like any other country, and if it wasn't occupy Palestine, it wouldn't survive because Palestine isn't interested in co existence

If they continue to occupy territory beyond their borders, they will only get more hatred. It is obvious that the Zionists want all the land, if they did not have the world watching, they would conquer Palestine and that's it, like 2000 years ago, but today it is impossible so they go little by little. This attitude must stop if they want the support of the West. The US should mediate seriously. 

They are playing with the excuse: they are bad savages, murderers, to expand their territory. The last thing Israel wants is a moderate Palestinian government. The Palestinians should be smarter and see this, but of course, the problem is that the Palestinians do not want the two-state solution either. So, here are two stubborn egoists facing each other. 

1 hour ago, Lila9 said:

recognize that Palestinians lived in Israel in the past hundreds of years but I do believe that Israel is more entitled to this land because Jews lived there prior to Muslim Arabs and for longer. People forget that someone occupied Jews and took their homes in Israel/Palestine before Zionists did this to the Palestinians. From Israeli perspective, they returned to the land that someone have stolen from them a thousands years ago.

Those reasons are those of the Jews, yes, who have been around the world for 2000 years repeating that to themselves and that has kept them existing as an entity, without dissolving among the other entities where they have lived, which has brought them many problems. It is as if the Arabs wanted to return to Spain where they spent 700 years and founded cities that were very advanced for their time. In fact, there are Muslim movements that speak of Al Andalus. Those are unilateral reasons that do not take into account the other. In history it has always been like this and the solution has been the conquest and expulsion of the other group. but supposedly today this cannot be. So what is the solution?

The only thing is to return the occupied territories, two states, not harass the Palestinians, protect the borders, and if there are attacks, eventually close them, as in Gaza, but without illegal settlements and expansionist projects.

[Lila9]

33 minutes ago, jimwell said:

If somebody steals your land, that's a valid reaction.

No it's not. These innocent people just wanted to live, didn't bother anyone.

Young people was peacefully partying, how the fuck they are a threat to Palestine?

37 minutes ago, jimwell said:

But at the expense of the native Palestinians, hence, immature.

These "native" Palestinians sold their lands to Zionists, and also were encouraged by some of their Arab leaders to do that, telling them that they will throw Jews to the sea afterwards to get their territory back.

It seems for me like Arabs did business with Zionists and now when they see that they cannot undo the transaction, they claim that it was stolen.

52 minutes ago, jimwell said:

Yes, it is noble. But cutting food and water supply is barbaric. That's as bad as what the Nazis did to the Jews.

It's not the same. This cutting is a sanction as a result of the Hamas crime against Israel, until then, they were supplied with water and electricity.

What is really Nazi is to kill innocent people the way Hamas did, merely because they are Israeli or Jewish.

1 hour ago, jimwell said:

Suppose it's true that the descendants of Canaanites are the Palestinians and Lebanese, would you (you might be a Jew) and other Jews honor the truth? Would you give Israel back to the modern Canaanites?  Of course no, because you don't care about truth or goodness. You only care about yourself and your biases.

 

Canaanites are the ancestors of most Jews and Arabs in Israel:

https://english.m.tau.ac.il/news/canaanites

However, Judaism in Israel is much more ancient than Arabic Islam in Israel.

Ancient Hebrew language was one of the most common languages of the Canaanites with other languages similar to ancient Hebrew.

I'm not Jewish but you might be a Muslim. I suppose you hate Jews because you were raised so? You may want to think with yourself if your hatred distorts your perception of truth?

 

[Lila9]

50 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

How is it possible that it took them 12 hours to come after receiving distress calls? Israel is very small, they have helicopters, trained special forces, etc. 

It didn't took them 12 hours to come, it might have taken 12 hours to fight and catch the terrorists in the entire Israeli area close to Gaza but the forces came much earlier than that. Yes they were surprised and shocked and of course unprepared and unaware of the how great the event is.

56 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

They are playing with the excuse: they are bad savages, murderers, to expand their territory. The last thing Israel wants is a moderate Palestinian government. The Palestinians should be smarter and see this, but of course, the problem is that the Palestinians do not want the two-state solution either. So, here are two stubborn egoists facing each other. 

Hamas are really bad savages and they exist and get stronger as long as Israel keeps being letinant with them.

Yes, both want 100% of Israel and both are two stubborn egos.

However, I would say that it's safer for Muslim Arabs to live under Israel government rather than for Jews to live under an Islamic government. 

1 hour ago, Breakingthewall said:

The only thing is to return the occupied territories, two states, not harass the Palestinians, protect the borders, and if there are attacks, eventually close them, as in Gaza, but without illegal settlements and expansionist projects.

There is no simple solution to that.

1 hour ago, Breakingthewall said:

Those reasons are those of the Jews, yes, who have been around the world for 2000 years repeating that to themselves and that has kept them existing as an entity, without dissolving among the other entities where they have lived, which has brought them many problems. It is as if the Arabs wanted to return to Spain where they spent 700 years and founded cities that were very advanced for their time. In fact, there are Muslim movements that speak of Al Andalus. Those are unilateral reasons that do not take into account the other. In history it has always been like this and the solution has been the conquest and expulsion of the other group. but supposedly today this cannot be. So what is the solution?

It's different because Muslim Arabs have bunch of countries. While Jews has only one which is a place that is genetically and culturally connected to them. 

Yes, Jews could immerse into other people but they didn't, why they have to? Does anyone expect Arab, French or German people to do that? Then why Jews have to do that?

They have the right to have their culture and live peacefully. Jews historically lived in their closed communities and didn't touched anyone.

History proves that Jews are one of the most scapegoated nation of humanity. As a relatively conscious person I'm aware that it's not ok at all and I wouldn't support that. It's very cool to hate Jews, but no one asks why or provide a good explanation for that. Only excuses such:"Jews think that they are the chosen by God and it's so annoying". So what? Is that justifying holocaust or any terror against them? Is that justifying them not having their safe place, safe country while other cultures have bunch of land and freedom to live according their views?