Palestine/Israel war - What can we do to stop this genocide?

[Breakingthewall]

1 minute ago, zazen said:

Yet there is another side to this tale of debasement and humiliation. By the end of the 20th century Bernard Lewis, among the most eminent historians of the Middle East, a lifelong student of Jews and Islam and himself a Jew, reflected on the 14 centuries of Jewish life under Islamic rule since Muhammad. He concluded that the situation of Jews living under Islamic rulers ‘was never as bad as in Christendom at its worst’, even if it was never ‘as good as in Christendom at its best’. Lewis continued: ‘There is nothing in Islamic history to parallel the Spanish expulsion and Inquisition, the Russian pogroms, or the Nazi Holocaust.''

 

That's true, the thing is that Christians have evolved in one direction and Muslims in another. Comparing Hamas to Nazis makes no sense. They are both an aberration, the same as Slobodan Milosevic and many others. Christians have been extremely cruel, probably more so than Muslims.

My criticism of Islam is not that, it is that Christianity is against war, while Islam as a religion promotes war. Later, Christians have massacred in the name of their religion, like stupid humans, but the Christian religion is about forgiveness, turning the other cheek and peace, while Islam is about jihad, submission of women and slavery.  

What I wonder is what destination can a path that begins with those bases reach?

[Breakingthewall]

@zazen

27 minutes ago, zazen said:

 

By the way, I would really like to stop having that negative perspective towards Muslims, since they are a billion humans, it is something that poisons.  

I would like to see how in Islamic countries there is a movement of freedom, like the protests in Iran against the veil, or like in Tunisia where there is a secular government (not sure if yet). that Muslims open themselves to life, to evolution, creativity, freedom. It is a difficult path, we Westerners are crazy, sad, without foundation, but we move forward without fear

Edited October 14, 2023 by Breakingthewall

[Nivsch]

@lina The process of Israel establishment wasn't at all "A massacre Israel did" but a complicated dynamic which in both sides did things one to another that ended up in Israel establishment.

Without force, Israel couldn't exist at all given the language our neigborhood understands.

Edited October 14, 2023 by Nivsch

[zurew]

1 hour ago, lina said:

Ben Shapiro got caught sharing an A.I generated image  https://twitter.com/jacksonhinklle/status/1712585253456400856/photo/1 , that's a classic example of atrocity propaganda. 

Please stop with this kind of thinking and stop looking at Jacksonhinkle's twitter who is notorious for posting misinformation. Using an AI as an absolute authority to determine whether something was or wasn't generated by AI is just silly and stupid.

You only need 1 false positive or 1 false negative and this AI's authority is completely undermined.

And the fact of the matter is that that AI gave contradictory answers to the same given image multiple times so its unreliable.

......

But even without testing it the fact that someone would use an AI tool like that to with 100% confidence dismiss something is incredibly superficial and potentially disgusting and disrespectful if the pictures are real, so why even risk being that hurtful to other people? - like imagine seeing your burnt baby being posted on the internet and then see people dismissing it using an AI tool that says "its fake".

You can easily disagree or condemn Israel's actions without any need to rely on silly AI tools and without any need to dismiss potential true pictures about what Hamas did.

 

Edited October 14, 2023 by zurew

[Danioover9000]

   9 years later, and this is still relevant to this day:

   Both informative and entertaining, this is rap done right.

[zazen]

47 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

That's true, the thing is that Christians have evolved in one direction and Muslims in another. Comparing Hamas to Nazis makes no sense. They are both an aberration, the same as Slobodan Milosevic and many others. Christians have been extremely cruel, probably more so than Muslims.

My criticism of Islam is not that, it is that Christianity is against war, while Islam as a religion promotes war. Later, Christians have massacred in the name of their religion, like stupid humans, but the Christian religion is about forgiveness, turning the other cheek and peace, while Islam is about jihad, submission of women and slavery.  

What I wonder is what destination can a path that begins with those bases reach?

 Both have to be understood in their context. Here's some writing on their divergence from each other:

 

The interpretations of essential religious states that orient themselves towards power and propagation, propagate.

Muhammad oriented essence, externalised it to the world of war. Christ lived that essence but didn’t orient it towards power politics - Christianity and the crusades did.

Christ embodied the height of that essence culminating as ultimate love, to the extent of turning the other cheek and sacrificing the flesh - for he knew a world beyond the flesh, that there is a here-after, not just a here now.

All religions stem from the same realisation of ultimate unity - the essence of which is interpreted through the mind and vessel it’s  revealed in, in the culture and time it is revealed in. Hence, the one light but many manifestations of colour - it manifests at the station the man is in, his context.

Christ by exemplary example showed the western psyche that an interior spiritual world exists beyond the material world of form, a great love from which we all come - he lived in that height. Likewise Bhudda did this for the Eastern psyche.

Yet religions and people solely based in the heights of the formless-God, and not based in lower realities of form, will get debased by civilisations or religions that wield the material world of form.

Power politics emphasises the masculine - projecting energy into this world, striving. Eastern religions emphasised the feminine - passive energy of surrendering this world for the other world, stillness.

The East never became worldly enough for they were of the other world, thus never protected, projected or propagated. The East took the feminine path of awakening to God in stillness and contemplative surrender, the West took the masculine path of striving and conquest - jihad and crusades.

Muhammad had the same realisation as Christ amidst warring tribes, and being the leader of one, had to straddle the realisation of oneness and love whilst defending his people. Thus his religion took on a masculine tone and had to bridge the ethereal with the real, the ascending world of love that Christ emphasised with the descending world of lower natures brutally fighting.

A whole system had to be created, an outer shell of religion - organised religion. Essential esoteric religion is an internal pilgrimage, not a external framework to deal with socio-political affairs. Yet, essence is housed in the elemental and must be maintained by the elemental truths of the material.

As man is multi dimensional so shall religion be made so - body mind and soul. Religion, to deal with the world has to be made worldly, for essence is of the other world. One can’t look towards the here after whilst only partially facing the realities of the here.

The Hindus have the Trimurti, Christians have the trinity and Islam also has its planes. Sharia for example is the outer layer, the laws, codes of conduct and so on.

The ones who get lost on the outer layer and hug the surface of religion don’t have the fire that lit it into existence - the essence.

Edited October 14, 2023 by zazen

[zazen]

1 hour ago, Breakingthewall said:

@zazen

By the way, I would really like to stop having that negative perspective towards Muslims, since they are a billion humans, it is something that poisons.  

I would like to see how in Islamic countries there is a movement of freedom, like the protests in Iran against the veil, or like in Tunisia where there is a secular government (not sure if yet). that Muslims open themselves to life, to evolution, creativity, freedom. It is a difficult path, we Westerners are crazy, sad, without foundation, but we move forward without fear

Islam had a golden age where they reasoned and used logic. Science came out of it including a whole system of law and jurisprudence.  That fell away to very simplistic, dogmatic forms of Islam where free speech and thought got stamped out. But Islam is able to exist in that fashion and the hope is that it does so in the modern era. 

 

Also, a lot of cultural norms just need the appropriate reasoning behind them. The problem is when the religious simply state 'because God said so' as their justification. For example, the reasoning behind Muhammed marriage to Aisha or slavery are explained in the below videos in the Islamic and historic context in which they were practiced. Not to justify it, just to explain it and maybe understand where they come from to dispel the myth of Islam being barbaric and judged as immoral from the outset.

 

To not derail this thread I'll refrain going into the religion of Islam any further. 

Edited October 14, 2023 by zazen

[Breakingthewall]

@zazen 

Good and deep reflection, but what points do you find in Islam? Don't treat your slaves badly? In war does he kill the minimum? It is a code of conduct that is advanced for its time, but it is not timeless. Christianity and Buddhism are, Islam is obsolete

[Breakingthewall]

28 minutes ago, zazen said:

Yet religions and people solely based in the heights of the formless-God, and not based in lower realities of form, will get debased by civilisations or religions that wield the material world of form.

That's why in Christianity is said: To God what is God's, to Caesar what is Caesar's. Christianity is a religion, not a political system. It has been a state religion for centuries, but that is not its essence. The essence of Islam is to be a state religion. Islam cannot be interpreted, it is literal, and it is created to be applied as a legal system. Not doing so is going against Islam, that's why fundamentalists really are the true Muslims, and most Muslims understand it.

[Breakingthewall]

@zazen  There is another important difference between Islam and Christianity: Christianity is a religion of fakes, since it is practically impossible to be a good Christian, you should work for free in a leper colony and be a saint. The rich can't go to heaven, if they hit you, turn the other cheek, even don't have bad thoughts. All christians have a feeling of guilt, since it is impossible to fulfill your duty, that is what confession is for.... Buddhism the same, almost impossible be a Buddha, you can't go in that direction, but arrive is almost impossible. On the other hand, Muslims can be good Muslims, a perfect one.  it's easy: Ramadan, prayer, don't hit your wife too hard, etc. you must do the yihad, and can't deviate, there is no confession for Muslim, if you are a sinner, bad business, hell is waiting

Edited October 14, 2023 by Breakingthewall

[Breakingthewall]

but the fundamental difference is that one is true and the other false. If you surrender your ego, as Christianity or Buddhism says, you will enter the kingdom of heaven or nirvana. On the other hand, if you beat your wife gently and treat your slaves well and do jihad, you will not enter paradise. It is a lie, to manipulate and make you obey. It is the religion of a demon. Simple and without any possible interpretation

[ExplorerMystic]

15 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

but the fundamental difference is that one is true and the other false. If you surrender your ego, as Christianity or Buddhism says, you will enter the kingdom of heaven or nirvana. On the other hand, if you beat your wife gently and treat your slaves well and do jihad, you will not enter paradise. It is a lie, to manipulate and make you obey. It is the religion of a demon. Simple and without any possible interpretation

@BreakingthewallYou are spewing some serious hate against one community. There is one interpretation of Islam which is given by fanatics and one is is mystical side of it which is Sufi . Read Ahmed Hulusi interpretation of Quran to open up your mind which got so much narrow perspective on Islam. If you don't want to do that than don't.  The other solution will be to leave your bedroom and travel the world . Trust me it had helped me a lot. It will give you other side of the story which you don't get to see on your TV screen.

Edited October 14, 2023 by ExplorerMystic

[Breakingthewall]

6 minutes ago, ExplorerMystic said:

@BreakingthewallYou are spewing some serious hate against one community. There is one interpretation of Islam which is given by fanatics and one is is mystical side of it which is Sufi . Read Ahmed Hulusi interpretation of Quran to open up your mind which got so much narrow perspective on Islam. If you don't want to that than don't.  The other solution will be to leave your bedroom and travel the world . Trust me it had helped me a lot. It will give you other side of the story which you don't get to see on your TV screen.

I have been to Morocco, Mauritania and Turkey several times, half of my family come from Islamic religion, I have read the Koran, Rumi and Ibn Arabi, I consider the latter the most advanced mystic I know, but the essence of Islam is what it is, it is not spreading hatred, it is revealing the reality. Just tell me, where I'm wrong?

Edited October 14, 2023 by Breakingthewall

[Breakingthewall]

9 minutes ago, ExplorerMystic said:

one is is mystical side of it which is Sufi

How the Sufis are Islamic? When I read them I can't understand, they seems heretic for be a Muslim. In fact, I believe that they were hidden heretics who could not openly manifest their heresy. Ibn Arabi said that all religions were equal, that is why it is prohibited in Iran.

[ExplorerMystic]

1 minute ago, Breakingthewall said:

I have been to Morocco, Mauritania and Turkey several times, I have read the Koran, Rumi and Ibn Arabi, I consider the latter the most advanced mystic I know, but the essence of Islam is what it is, it is not spreading hatred, it is revealing the reality. Just tell me, where I'm wrong?

5 minutes ago, ExplorerMystic said:

@BreakingthewallYou are spewing some serious hate against one community. There is one interpretation of Islam which is given by fanatics and one is is mystical side of it which is Sufi . Read Ahmed Hulusi interpretation of Quran to open up your mind which got so much narrow perspective on Islam. If you don't want to that than don't.  The other solution will be to leave your bedroom and travel the world . Trust me it had helped me a lot. It will give you other side of the story which you don't get to see on your TV screen.

I know where this is going to take topic by topic and than criticized. You will never land any where . But trust me even hatred has purpose . That only one will come to know in his/her lifetime. Let it burn.

[Breakingthewall]

7 minutes ago, ExplorerMystic said:

I know where this is going to take topic by topic and than criticized. You will never land any where . But trust me even hatred has purpose . That only one will come to know in his/her lifetime. Let it burn.

I see, You are Muslim and it hurts you that your religion is analyzed. there is no hate, just cold analysis. 

Basic number one lie of the Quran: Muhammad was illiterate and the Quran is a direct channeling written by God. The Koran is literal because it is the word of God and cannot be interpreted, only obeyed. 

What I have written before is not hate, it is an analysis of why Islam is producing more and more fanatics.

Just tell me: you are wrong, Islam is true because of this and this. 

Edited October 14, 2023 by Breakingthewall

[lina]

@Lila9 @Truth Seekah

3 hours ago, Lila9 said:

This is what you are actually doing right now: believing everything that the media says. And it's funny that you base your beliefs on an AI detector generated by a pro-Palestinian biased account. This website, claiming that the burned baby picture is AI-generated, seems more fake than the burned baby picture, which unfortunately appears to be real—too real. It seems that they are trying to cover and deny Hamas' cruelty because it portrays them as savages, and they don't want to look like savages in front of Westerners, as the savages that they truly are. They want to appear as victims so that naive Westerners will support them.

I said we should stay vigilant and not believe in everything, so far it has not been confirmed according to the Israeli officials, https://edition.cnn.com/2023/10/12/middleeast/israel-hamas-beheading-claims-intl/index.html , the main focus should be on what's confirmed to be happening and that's the current genocidal war on Gaza. At this very moment civilians are waiting for their death with no access to electricity, aid or water. 

3 hours ago, Lila9 said:

They are Islamic radicals who would harm anyone who doesn't share their beliefs. They don't care about life, freedom, humanity, or rights, they care about their ideology and living a radical Muslim lifestyle while having control over Al-Aqsa, even if it means killing innocent Jews and sacrificing innocent Palestinians along the way.

Please try to differentiate between ISIS and Hamas, there are Christian Palestinians and they are not targeted by Hamas. 

3 hours ago, Lila9 said:

Nothing can justify their cruel actions, no matter how much land Israel occupies. What Hamas did to innocent Israeli people is a new level of devilry, especially after Israel made numerous attempts to achieve peace with Palestinians and Hamas.

Israel is the civilized country that made efforts to pursue peace, but unfortunately, those attempts were consistently rejected by Palestine and Hamas. If they were genuinely interested in peace, there could have been a resolution, and this conflict might not have persisted.

If Israel is the civilized country then don't you think it's within their responsibility to stop the illegal settlements and apartheid to give an actual chance for peace? Do you think more violence will solve this conflict?  

Edited October 14, 2023 by lina

[ExplorerMystic]

Just now, Breakingthewall said:

I see, You are Muslim and it hurts you that your religion is analyzed. there is no hate, just cold analysis. 

Just tell me: you are wrong, Islam is true because of this and this. 

Your assumption that  i am Jew , Muslim , Christian, Buddhist , Hindu  etc doesn't matter . Cross that line long time. Take this words from my end "Let the hate burn". You will know where you will come out on other side. Just let it burn inside of you till it impact your life , health etc  & may be than you will see importance of what i have written here.

[Breakingthewall]

4 minutes ago, ExplorerMystic said:

Just let it burn inside of you till it impact your life , health etc

You the Muslims always with your threats. I was asking for reasons, but it seems there aren't

Edited October 14, 2023 by Breakingthewall

[ExplorerMystic]

1 minute ago, Breakingthewall said:

You the Muslims always with your threats

? I know where you coming from . When things go bad . Take cover & play religion cards. My life is fortunate to have many people from all aspect of life. You are too narrow and childish . This thoughts web you are building . you are the only one who will get stuck here. Keep playing this religion game . Good luck . And remember my word before going to sleep today "let the hate burn inside of yourself".