Can Western and Islamic values be reconciled?

[zazen]

As in spiral dynamics, stages of development are just that - a development. Not an imposition from others who have developed to that stage. Although, spiral stages are themselves in a hierarchy of their own so its natural to view a stage red society as inferior, but a mistake nonetheless.

Other cultures shouldn't be interfered in by imposing cultural ideas from their own cultural stage. That robs them of their growth process, and what is imposed will try to be disposed of in rebellion.

Lower stage societies view the struggles the West is going through and deduce that they are better than them, which entrenches further to their own stage. Maybe once the West comes out the other side of its current growth process and looks a lot more solid they can then contemplate its merits and be incentivised to develop towards it. 

These two videos show the psychology and perspective of how more traditional conservative societies view themselves as superior - in this case particularly from an Islamic lens.

 

What multiculturalism has done it seems is clashed different perspectives, values and stages of growth towards each other in a pressure cooker. Each questioning the others validity, assumptions and way of life which brings about the current confusion, cognitive dissonance and identity crisis.

Out of this friction evolution could bring us to our supreme identity which integrates them all together, but thats a lengthy and tumultuous process. 

 

Quotes on multiculturalism from Ken Wilber

''Multiculturalism is a noble, logocentric, and rational endeavour that simply misidentifies its own stance and claims to be not rational because some of the things it tolerates are not rational. But its own tolerance is rational through and through, and rightly so. Rationality is the only structure that will tolerate structures other than itself.''

''The "multicultural movement," which claims a universal tolerance of all cultures freed from the "logocentric, rational-centric, Eurocentric" dominance and hegemony, is a step in the right direction, with all good intentions, but ends up being self-contradictory and finally hypocritical. It may claim to be "not rationalcentric," but in fact cultural tolerance is secured only by rationality as universal pluralism, by a capacity to mentally put yourself into the other person's shoes and then decide to honor or at least tolerate that viewpoint even if you don't agree with it. You, operating from a plural rationality might decide to tolerate the ideas of a mythic-believer; the problem is, they will not tolerate you – and, in fact, historically they would burn your tolerant tail at the stake in order to save your soul (whether your saviors be Christian, Marxist, Muslim,or Shinto).''

[An young being]

2 hours ago, zazen said:

As in spiral dynamics, stages of development are just that - a development. Not an imposition from others who have developed to that stage. Although, spiral stages are themselves in a hierarchy of their own so its natural to view a stage red society as inferior, but a mistake nonetheless.

Other cultures shouldn't be interfered in by imposing cultural ideas from their own cultural stage. That robs them of their growth process, and what is imposed will try to be disposed of in rebellion.

Lower stage societies view the struggles the West is going through and deduce that they are better than them, which entrenches further to their own stage. Maybe once the West comes out the other side of its current growth process and looks a lot more solid they can then contemplate its merits and be incentivised to develop towards it. 

These two videos show the psychology and perspective of how more traditional conservative societies view themselves as superior - in this case particularly from an Islamic lens.

 

What multiculturalism has done it seems is clashed different perspectives, values and stages of growth towards each other in a pressure cooker. Each questioning the others validity, assumptions and way of life which brings about the current confusion, cognitive dissonance and identity crisis.

Out of this friction evolution could bring us to our supreme identity which integrates them all together, but thats a lengthy and tumultuous process. 

 

Quotes on multiculturalism from Ken Wilber

''Multiculturalism is a noble, logocentric, and rational endeavour that simply misidentifies its own stance and claims to be not rational because some of the things it tolerates are not rational. But its own tolerance is rational through and through, and rightly so. Rationality is the only structure that will tolerate structures other than itself.''

''The "multicultural movement," which claims a universal tolerance of all cultures freed from the "logocentric, rational-centric, Eurocentric" dominance and hegemony, is a step in the right direction, with all good intentions, but ends up being self-contradictory and finally hypocritical. It may claim to be "not rationalcentric," but in fact cultural tolerance is secured only by rationality as universal pluralism, by a capacity to mentally put yourself into the other person's shoes and then decide to honor or at least tolerate that viewpoint even if you don't agree with it. You, operating from a plural rationality might decide to tolerate the ideas of a mythic-believer; the problem is, they will not tolerate you – and, in fact, historically they would burn your tolerant tail at the stake in order to save your soul (whether your saviors be Christian, Marxist, Muslim,or Shinto).''

They are simply different ways to experience life. The fact that there are different people experiencing life in very and many different ways and we as an ego able to experience other people experiencing life in different ways makes it all more experential.

[PurpleTree]

Liberal-ish islam yes, hardliners no not really imo

Edited October 13, 2023 by PurpleTree

[DocWatts]

If we're talking about the type of Stage Red/Stage Blue Islam that exists in places like Afghanistan, probably not.

But fortunately there's nothing inherently special about Islam that makes it incapable of being practiced in an SD- Orange/Green way. Hell, the governor of Michigan that I voted for in the Democratic Primary was a progressive candidate who was also a practicing Muslim, so there's no reason in principle why Islamic values can't be reconciled with Western pluralism.

[zazen]

@An young being  When seen from that view it makes life all the more richer.

@PurpleTree  @DocWatts True, the issue is in reforming or liberalising Islam as a lot of muslims come at Islam from a literal lens and that the word is the absolute word of God when it was actually from a man who had a god realisation and just interpreted it or misinterpreted that realisation within the context of his time, culture and intellect.

I found this video to be interesting in that he points out that maybe our whole idea of freedom is wrong. Maybe what we deem as unfree societies are the more free ones.

 

The quagmire of Western society is that its primary value is individual freedom and liberty, but such values if not exercised correctly can undermine society itself. It's tricky to balance the moral primacy of freedom with the existential social need for conformity, and the more you emphasise freedom the more you have to covertly enforce restrictions on that freedom in case of that freedom being mishandled resulting in societal harm and breakdown. So the people being indoctrinated into the fiction of a free society collides with the lived reality of it not being so by covert means (which people like to call the Matrix). This causes people to have cognitive dissonance and a disillusionment and distrust of the system itself (being red pilled to it and the existence of a Matrix they'd like to break free from) because the system people are living in bears little to no resemblance to the way its packaged to them. 

 

The main factor around which societies arrange them self is freedom, the difference is in how freedom is approached. Overtly free societies such as the West have to covertly manage that freedom to not allow it go unchecked as opposed to more overtly 'controlled' societies such as Islamic or traditional ones. If the legal matters lean towards lenience then the social matters must be more coercive. If law provides great liberty than the social contract and codes of conduct demand greater conformity.  Law enforcement has prisons, social code enforcement has ostracization.

 

In religious / traditional societies God and the social group become your 24/7 surveillance state, in liberal democratic societies the state itself is the surveillance state managing good/bad behaviour. Moral behaviour is outsourced from the self to the social group to the state. In a evolved society it would be primarily the self and ones own evolved consciousness and state of being that conducts itself more nobly. 

 

 

The above video is also very interesting and gives food for thought. I think a distinction can be made between culture and civilisation. We equate advanced civilisation with an advanced culture of goodness. 

 

Civilisation is about being good at developing tools and its achievements.

Culture is about the user who uses those tools and the users state of awakening to God/Goodness. 

Civilisation is about competence and being good at the achievement of and refinement of tools.

Culture is about consciousness/character, being good itself due to awakening and the refinement of the self.

Culture either purifies or perverts the power that civilisational brings.

Civilisation is horizontal evolution, culture is a vertical evolution that inculcates God/Goodness.

What good are the tools if the users of those tools have shaky hands.

Edited October 14, 2023 by zazen

[Breakingthewall]

Islam was more evolved in the 14th century than it is now, so the prospects are not good. With the internet, Islam has entered a process of radicalization, since Islam really is like that, don't allow any change to evolution and with the internet the Islamic people reinforce each other.

The only country that has attempted de-Islamization is Turkey, and it has not worked, since a democracy in those countries will always bring Islamic parties to power. When the cultural level of those countries grows, perhaps it will be different, but a real separation between Islam and the state does not seem possible now

Edited October 14, 2023 by Breakingthewall

[Breakingthewall]

27 minutes ago, zazen said:

a lot of muslims come at Islam from a literal lens and that the word is the absolute word of God when it was actually from a man who had a god realisation and just interpreted it or misinterpreted that realisation within the context of his time, culture and intellect.

if you say that you are a heretic. According to Islam, Muhammad was illiterate and the Koran was a literal channeling of the word of God. what you said is anti islam, it means you are not a believer.

[SeaMonster]

The problem with Islam is one of scale.

You can have individual Muslims who are pretty Westernized and pretty much ignore a lot of the more fundamentalist aspects of it.

I have Muslim friends who had sex before marriage, dress like Westerners, live among Westerners, are Western in most aspects of their life, but e.g. fast during Ramadan.

The problem is when you get into the community and then state/country level, the negative aspects invariably rear their ugly head (the most extreme types tend to want to dominate the more modern types.)

Turkey and Egypt have historically handled this by, in essence, secularist military dictatorships, but it seems to be a constant struggle.

So, like, importing a ton of Muslims where they take over an entire town (like Malmo, Sweden or Dearborn, MI) is a recipe for disaster in a modern Western country.

 

 

Edited October 25, 2023 by SeaMonster

[Danioover9000]

@zazen

On 2023-10-13 at 0:40 PM, zazen said:

As in spiral dynamics, stages of development are just that - a development. Not an imposition from others who have developed to that stage. Although, spiral stages are themselves in a hierarchy of their own so its natural to view a stage red society as inferior, but a mistake nonetheless.

Other cultures shouldn't be interfered in by imposing cultural ideas from their own cultural stage. That robs them of their growth process, and what is imposed will try to be disposed of in rebellion.

Lower stage societies view the struggles the West is going through and deduce that they are better than them, which entrenches further to their own stage. Maybe once the West comes out the other side of its current growth process and looks a lot more solid they can then contemplate its merits and be incentivised to develop towards it. 

These two videos show the psychology and perspective of how more traditional conservative societies view themselves as superior - in this case particularly from an Islamic lens.

 

What multiculturalism has done it seems is clashed different perspectives, values and stages of growth towards each other in a pressure cooker. Each questioning the others validity, assumptions and way of life which brings about the current confusion, cognitive dissonance and identity crisis.

Out of this friction evolution could bring us to our supreme identity which integrates them all together, but thats a lengthy and tumultuous process. 

 

Quotes on multiculturalism from Ken Wilber

''Multiculturalism is a noble, logocentric, and rational endeavour that simply misidentifies its own stance and claims to be not rational because some of the things it tolerates are not rational. But its own tolerance is rational through and through, and rightly so. Rationality is the only structure that will tolerate structures other than itself.''

''The "multicultural movement," which claims a universal tolerance of all cultures freed from the "logocentric, rational-centric, Eurocentric" dominance and hegemony, is a step in the right direction, with all good intentions, but ends up being self-contradictory and finally hypocritical. It may claim to be "not rationalcentric," but in fact cultural tolerance is secured only by rationality as universal pluralism, by a capacity to mentally put yourself into the other person's shoes and then decide to honor or at least tolerate that viewpoint even if you don't agree with it. You, operating from a plural rationality might decide to tolerate the ideas of a mythic-believer; the problem is, they will not tolerate you – and, in fact, historically they would burn your tolerant tail at the stake in order to save your soul (whether your saviors be Christian, Marxist, Muslim,or Shinto).''

   Fantastic post! I do agree that there's going to be some issues with reconciliation between western values and Islamic values. If I had to choose a version of Islam compatible to today's Era, it'll be a more secularist Islam and not the Caliphate version.

   I also agree that the modern day 1st world democracies have a problem with multiculturalism, egalitarianism and feminism run amok, plus neoliberalism. These ideologies have made most western countries lower their birthrates closer below replacement numbers for future generations, and due to no fault divorce and feminism indoctrinating young women into careers, logocentric, and male centric roles and views in society, we have higher unemployment rates effecting men from work combined with automation and A.I disruption. What we need is to slow down and bring back the patriarchy, and limit democracy down a bit, modify the 19th amendment, and get rid of no fault divorce. Overall society has to integrate stage blue values yet again, especially the community building elements back to cure our hyper individualism and isolation from stage orange materialism and stage green post modernism and moral relativism.  

[Breakingthewall]

On 13/10/2023 at 1:40 PM, zazen said:

Other cultures shouldn't be interfered in by imposing cultural ideas from their own cultural stage. That robs them of their growth process, and what is imposed will try to be disposed of in rebellion.

The problem is if that culture is something negative, oppression of the mind, castration of creativity, oppression of women, falsehood, prohibition of expressing oneself freely, fear and hatred of freedom, stagnation, looking only to the past, hating evolution .

 

Edited October 25, 2023 by Breakingthewall

[Breakingthewall]

On 14/10/2023 at 1:18 PM, zazen said:

come at Islam from a literal lens and that the word is the absolute word of God when it was actually from a man who had a god realisation and just interpreted it or misinterpreted that realisation within the context of his time, culture and intellect.

That not Islam. Islam is literal and what you have said is blasphemy. The Quran is not a book written by a wise man, it is a book written directly by God, and if you don't believe that, you don't believe in Islam. congratulations! You are not Muslim. You may like Muslim culture, but you are not a believer in their religion. If so, why say that you are Muslim?

[Consept]

Great topic op 

I would say that its not necessarily whether muslim values and western values can be reconciled, its how do you solve the problem of dogmatic beliefs that could be detrimental to a society that is trying to allow freedom to believe and live how you wish. For the most part Islam is fine in the western world, in the UK for examples there are many muslims that were born here and live conventional lives, practice their religion whilst also working and living within the British culture. 

The issue comes from the extremists but then also the treatment of muslims over the last 30 years or so, before 9/11 there had never been much anti-muslim sentiment since then and after invasions into Afghanistan, Iraq amongst others where literally 100s of thousand's of civilians were killed, the sentiment from the muslim world toward the west has been overwhelmingly negative. These terrible incidents have actually caused more extremism by making some people even more dogmatic as they no longer have the appetite to trust the west and so they retreat further into their religion as western values have led to disaster for the middle east. The USA had a chance to really lead by example after 9/11 and they didnt take that opportunity.  

In general i think any religion will loosen its strictness and dogmatic tendencies when its part of a multi-cultrural society, we've seen this again and again, even Catholicism is easing up. Every religion that is reasonably flexible now had a long time of being very hard-lined and dogmatic, i dont think Islam would be different but it has been set back by th last 30 years.   

[Tanz]

Yes, the media and the  western governments create problems where they don't exist.  

Singapore has a huge Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, and Christian population, they all go to school together, become good friends

Wealth and access to wealth is the real problem.  

[itsadistraction]

@zazen can nonsense be reconciled with more nonsense? Of course not!

As long as humans cling to silly ideological beliefs and false identities (religion, nationalism, politics) there will be conflict in the world. 

[Leo Gura]

A key value of the West is secularism, while in the Middle East they cannot fathom secularism, they want theocracy.

A key stage of development is to reach the point where you see the value and importance of secular government and education.

Edited October 26, 2023 by Leo Gura

[integration journey]

5 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

A key value of the West is secularism, while in the Middle East they cannot fathom secularism, they want theocracy.

A key stage of development is to reach the point where you see the value and importance of secular government and education.

I was born and raised in Syria. When the Syrian revolution started in 2011, the Syrian people dreamed of  a secular state and Syrians are still demanding that even after 13 years of war and revolution . But the Assad regime is too authoritarian to give up power. The problem in the Middle East is that the rulers are too selfish and authoritative/ militant minded. They can’t fathom sharing power or giving it up. Assad was portrayed as God in Syria. Anyone who dared to speak against him was thrown in jail and tortured. Believe me, it’s way worse 

[Leo Gura]

5 hours ago, integration journey said:

the Syrian people dreamed of  a secular state and Syrians are still demanding that even after 13 years of war and revolution .

I don't buy that. A few of the most developed Syrians might want that, but most of the people there do not value secularism, they want an Islamic state.

Even in America, something like 30% of the population want a Christian theocracy. Because their minds are not developed enough to appreciate secular government.

Edited October 27, 2023 by Leo Gura

[integration journey]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

I don't buy that. A few of the most developed Syrians might want that, but most of the people there do not value secularism, they want an Islamic state.

Even in America, something like 30% of the population want a Christian theocracy. Because their minds are not developed enough to appreciate secular government.

One of the value of the Syrian revolution was secularism. Assad released Islamist prisoners in 2013 so that they can run a mock in Syria and so that Assad can point his finger at them and say look! Those are radicals! He implicitly showed the west to stop supporting the revolution and to support him by releasing those prisoners. In the early days of the revolution,  thousands of people filled the streets of Syria demanding freedom from Assad’s tyranny and Theocracy. Assad himself created a subtle theocracy around him and his family by making everyone believe that they are the saviors of Syria! Some people in the Syrian army actually believe that Assad is god and they made people kneel infront of his photo and to say that he is god. There are videos of this. People actually fucking worship him 

Assad family destroyed Syria literally. Syria is a melting pot of different ethnicities, so the idea of an Islamist state doesn’t even make sense. Christians and Muslims in Syria lived together peacefully for hundreds of years. Syrians are simple people who want to live in a peaceful place after 13 years of Assad’s war. The Syrian revolution is the only hope for us Syrians because we dream of democracy, secularism and freedom from Assad 

[Leo Gura]

2 hours ago, integration journey said:

Christians and Muslims in Syria lived together peacefully for hundreds of years.

Christians live in Saudi Arabia and Iran too. That doesn't count for much. It's not like Iran is so genocidal that they don't allow some minority groups to co-exist.

Edited October 27, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Happy Lizard]

19 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

 

A key value of the West is secularism, while in the Middle East they cannot fathom secularism, they want theocracy.

A key stage of development is to reach the point where you see the value and importance of secular government and education.

 

Current day Arabs (possibly 25s and younger) are all for secularism some atheists or agnostics. Lost of 35s and younger are in the closet seculars — and that’s majority speaking.

You will find people and lifestyles that astonish you in the middle east. I mean you don’t have to take my word, look -deeply not superficially- at Kuwait, Jordan,Lebanon Emirates and Egypt. If you are digging in the wrong places you will only find what you presume is already the case. 
 

Television, Internet, social media and the more and more digitized the world is and the more and more information are accessible — add to that just how many people in the middle east are learning english now, and you will see a jump into secularism powered by all this technology in no time. This is something Ken Wilber talks about: How once a technology is found/designed/made be a higher level in the spiral it’s available to all levels. 
 

Most people in Arab countries Finnish college and get a degree, colleges are government subsidized, even no college grads have technical jobs and are way smarter people than the people you’ve got in the US. It’s actually astonishing to the world how stupid some Americans are in comparison to the norm in most countries.

 

 

Edited October 27, 2023 by Happy Lizard