Question to ask Jordan Peterson

[Carl-Richard]

3 hours ago, martins name said:

@Carl-Richard Okey, he knows the word and probably has heard a description. I think he has filtered it so hard through his bullshit that effectively has very little idea what it is. And I don't think he understands it well enough to distinguish enlightenment experiences from other mystical experiences.

Is the experience he had not an enlightenment experience? This is what I told you to watch:

"[...] and it transformed me; it turned me into something far more than I normally was [...]" "[...] it was as if an offer was being made to me that I could be like that from now on permanently [...]" "[...] I wouldn't belong in the world anymore [...]".

You guys treat JP like he is some mentally deficient fundamentalist Christian. I haven't seen such a strong collective bias against anyone else.

 

3 hours ago, martins name said:

I think if he did we would see him be more curious about it and maybe have a mystic on his podcast, which he hasn't.

That's just your internet Advaita bias; that enlightenment must be talked about through some quasi-Hindu lens by some ex-atheist-turned-spiritual.

Edited October 10, 2023 by Carl-Richard

[UnbornTao]

On 10/10/2023 at 6:37 PM, Carl-Richard said:

Is the experience he had not an enlightenment experience? This is what I told you to watch:

"[...] and it transformed me; it turned me into something far more than I normally was [...]" "[...] it was as if an offer was being made to me that I could be like that from now on permanently [...]" "[...] I wouldn't belong in the world anymore [...]".

Not an enlightenment -- at least by the description. A change of state likely.

Edited October 12, 2023 by UnbornTao

[Leo Gura]

I know about his mystical experience.

It isn't Awakening and he doesn't really understand it, and it doesn't mean he understand even classical Buddhist enlightenment, nevermind what I call God-Realization.

There are hundreds of mystical experiences one could have. And they need to proper understood and contextualized.

Edited October 10, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Carl-Richard]

58 minutes ago, UnbornTao said:

A change of state liely.

That is implied with "enlightenment experience" ?

 

42 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I know about his mystical experience.

It isn't Awakening and he doesn't really understand it, and it doesn't mean he understand even classical Buddhist enlightenment, nevermind what I call God-Realization.

There are hundreds of mystical experiences one could have.

If enlightenment is the stabilization in oneness, and if JP had an experience of oneness, then it's fair to say that JP had an enlightenment experience. Based on what he said, I think it's more likely than not that he had an experience of oneness, but it's tricky, since he didn't use classic internet Advaita vocabulary, which is apparently the only valid language game for that (except your God-Realization framework). But then, he also said "a higher consciousness descended upon me; call it divine". That's your kind of language. Is that an obvious double standard, or should we continue down the cynical rabbit hole?

Edited October 10, 2023 by Carl-Richard

[Leo Gura]

I admit it would be interesting to hear JP asked point-blank about it, just to see him stumble around and wax on about archetypes, metaphors, mythology, etc.

[Leo Gura]

1 minute ago, Carl-Richard said:

But then, he also said "a higher consciousness descended upon me; call it divine". That's your kind of language. Is that an obvious double standard

It's not a double standard at all. It's a mystical experience.

[Carl-Richard]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

It's not a double standard at all. It's a mystical experience.

A mystical experience meaning the experience of oneness? Or what exactly is it?

[Leo Gura]

6 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

A mystical experience meaning the experience of oneness? Or what exactly is it?

Not even necessarily.

But even if it was, that doesn't mean much. You can experience Oneness and still not understand what the hell it really was. And experiencing Oneness is not even classic Buddhist enlightenment.

What exactly is it that Buddhists claim the Buddha accomplished? I doubt JP understands that.

Edited October 10, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Francis777]

10 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

What exactly is it that Buddhists claim the Buddha accomplished

Liberation from the confines of ego, not necessarily not living from it anymore, just never trapped in it again. 
 

I think.

[Carl-Richard]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

Not even necessarily.

I think we should define what the hell we're talking about.

 

6 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

But even if it was, that doesn't mean much. You can experience Oneness and still not understand what the hell it really was.

Yet he would've had an experience of oneness, which I would call an enlightenment experience, and which in his own words (paraphrasing), he would say is capable of "changing you permanently". If you call that a mystical experience, sure: some mystical experiences are enlightenment experiences, just like some mystics are enlightened.

 

7 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

And experiencing Oneness is not even classic Buddhist enlightenment.

But is it classic Christian mystic enlightenment? Because my question wasn't just about Buddha, it was also about Jesus. I'm not just being silly: if he gave an answer that reflected any notion of enlightenment that hints towards non-duality, then I would be satisfied. Quite ironically, I want the anti-traditional internet Advaita answer. "Buddha" was just a prompt.

[UnbornTao]

On 10/10/2023 at 9:26 PM, Carl-Richard said:

That is implied with "enlightenment experience" ?

 "Everything you've got about enlightenment is bullshit", there's a valid point there. Enlightenment is not an experience.

Quote

If enlightenment is the stabilization in oneness, and if JP had an experience of oneness, then it's fair to say that JP had an enlightenment experience. Based on what he said, I think it's more likely than not that he had an experience of oneness, but it's tricky, since he didn't use classic internet Advaita vocabulary, which is apparently the only valid language game for that (except your God-Realization framework). But then, he also said "a higher consciousness descended upon me; call it divine". That's your kind of language. Is that an obvious double standard, or should we continue down the cynical rabbit hole?

What thing descended on, and transformed, him?

I've been looking precisely into this "nihilistic" phenomenon as it relates to this topic.

When people hear that they don't and can't find themselves, they seem to react in two ways:

1. "Who cares, then? What does that have to do with me?" And/or;
2. They conclude that it is impossible

So they get disillusioned and pursue something else. The good news: it is possible for you to become conscious of what's absolutely true because it is not separate from you. Keep contemplating and stay there.

Edited October 18, 2023 by UnbornTao

[Leo Gura]

38 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

But is it classic Christian mystic enlightenment? Because my question wasn't just about Buddha, it was also about Jesus.

It's even harder to determine what Jesus actually accomplished in his consciousness. You can't assume it was enlightenment at all. Who the fuck knows what he became conscious of? Vaguely speaking, "God", but that comes in so many kinds and degrees.

Edited October 10, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Raze]

6 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

It's even harder to determine what Jesus actually accomplished in his consciousness. You can't assume it was enlightenment at all. Who the fuck knows what he became conscious of? Vaguely speaking, "God", but that comes in so many kinds and degrees.

He is pretty clearly describing no-self on the cross. Adyashanti’s book on Jesus goes into it.

Edited October 10, 2023 by Raze

[Leo Gura]

16 minutes ago, Raze said:

He is pretty clearly describing no-self on the cross. Adyashanti’s book on Jesus goes into it.

I don't buy it. Adyashanti is projecting his nondualist Buddhist view on Jesus.

Jesus could have had Alien Conscioudness for all you know. You wouldn't even know.

Edited October 10, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Carl-Richard]

43 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

It's even harder to determine what Jesus actually accomplished in his consciousness. You can't assume it was enlightenment at all. Who the fuck knows what he became conscious of? Vaguely speaking, "God", but that comes in so many kinds and degrees.

Maybe, but again, that is besides the point. In my question, Jesus and Buddha are just prompts for him to talk about his idea of enlightenment and if he has met any enlightened people. I bet his answer will be just as surprising (for you guys) as the fact that he practices kundalini yoga (which he does).

[Leo Gura]

24 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

the fact that he practices kundalini yoga (which he does).

Lol

[UnbornTao]

The money I'd pay if talking to Jesus and Buddha were possible.

Got 50 bucks in my wallet.

Edited October 12, 2023 by UnbornTao

[UnbornTao]

On 11/10/2023 at 0:03 AM, Carl-Richard said:

Maybe, but again, that is besides the point. In my question, Jesus and Buddha are just prompts for him to talk about his idea of enlightenment and if he has met any enlightened people.

I took it seriously although in the end it is just an interesting question to entertain.

Quote

I bet his answer will be just as surprising (for you guys) as the fact that he practices kundalini yoga (which he does).

What makes you say that?

Edited October 18, 2023 by UnbornTao

[Leo Gura]

4 minutes ago, UnbornTao said:

The money I'd pay if talking to Jesus and Buddha were possible.

Got 50 bucks in my wallet.

For 50 bucks you can buy several dozen conversations directly with God.

[Fadl]

25 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

For 50 bucks you can buy several dozen conversations directly with God.

 

How much your upcoming course will be?