New War In Israel / Gaza

[Leo Gura]

2 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

sure but they (for example the spaniards) also did some good stuff. Almost all the nice older cities in latin america are started/built by spaniards. They stopped human sacrifices etc

Even Hitler did some good stuff.

It's really hard to be 100% pure evil.

[Scholar]

2 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

The Holocaust alone should be enough. But if that isn't enough for you, you can find 100 others examples from European history. Europeans were utterly ruthless conquers. Look at what the Spanish did to the South Americans.

Okay if you are going to do such a naive historic analysis then I will dismiss it anyways.

What Ghengis Khan did alone was orders of magnitude worse than any world war and any genocide.

How do you think the persian empires were built? How do you think the Ottoman empire was built? How do you think egypt was built? Do you think it was rainbows and butterflies? Islam, the religion of warriors, you seriously believe that they were any better than the europeans?

 

The colonialism is a different question, although you should look at the arab slave trade if you want to know how brutal the arabs were in regards to the africans. It is correct that the Europeans had more capacity due to certain historic developments, but that's not because they were more brutal, but because they were more advanced.

But you are missing that in the context of these rather recent historic developments, if the arab world had gone through these developments first, the brutality would have been at least as bad, if not far worse, than that of the europeans.

And mentioning the holocaust and the world wars, you need to realize that these happened as a result of a falling away from stage blue and transitioning into orange. This did not occur in the middle east, and there is still potential for such things to occur, even though it is less likely due to how stablized the world is today.

 

Either way, that is an incredibly simplistic analysis, and like I expected, it just shows how silly it is to make such generalizations.

[Sir Oberon]

 

4 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Even Hitler did some good stuff.

It's really hard to be 100% pure evil.

Wait till the USA gets involved, then we might see some good fireworks.   AI is scary.

Edited October 11, 2023 by Sir Oberon

[PurpleTree]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

Even Hitler did some good stuff.

It's really hard to be 100% pure evil.

Sure but i don’t think spaniards were that evil. They were greedy sure but they also thought they do something good for the indigenous by bringing them civilisation. Sure hitler also thought he did some good but there are levels imo. They came from the middle ages in europe where live wasn’t a cake walk, wars, black plague, witch hunt etc. Lifes weren’t worth that much to them anyways and still they stopped human sacrifices, built universities etc

[Leo Gura]

7 minutes ago, Scholar said:

Okay if you are going to do such a naive historic analysis then I will dismiss it anyways.

What Ghengis Khan did alone was orders of magnitude worse than any world war and any genocide.

How do you think the persian empires were built? How do you think the Ottoman empire was built? How do you think egypt was built? Do you think it was rainbows and butterflies? Islam, the religion of warriors, you seriously believe that they were any better than the europeans?

The colonialism is a different question, although you should look at the arab slave trade if you want to know how brutal the arabs were in regards to the africans. It is correct that the Europeans had more capacity due to certain historic developments, but that's not because they were more brutal, but because they were more advanced.

But you are missing that in the context of these rather recent historic developments, if the arab world had gone through these developments first, the brutality would have been at least as bad, if not far worse, than that of the europeans.

And mentioning the holocaust and the world wars, you need to realize that these happened as a result of a falling away from stage blue and transitioning into orange. This did not occur in the middle east, and there is still potential for such things to occur, even though it is less likely due to how stablized the world is today.

Either way, that is an incredibly simplistic analysis, and like I expected, it just shows how silly it is to make such generalizations.

1) I was comparing Europeans and Arabs. Genghis Khan is another matter.

2) My whole point is that there's nothing uniquely brutal about the Arabs. They are just lagging behind in development due to slower advance. What I see is many in the West demonizing Arabs as uniquely barbaric while overlooking European barbarism. This is the epitome of cherry-picking.

3) I see your Arab slave trade and raise you European slave trade.

Edited October 11, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Leo Gura]

10 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

i don’t think spaniards were that evil.

Well, that's a matter of relative perspective.

If you were on the receiving end of it, you would sing a different tune.

Edited October 11, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Scholar]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

1) I was comparing Europeans and Arabs. Genghis Khan is another matter.

2) My whole point is that there's nothing uniquely brutal about the Arabs. They are just lagging behind in development due to slower advance.

Well it doesn't even make sense to compare one group to another in this way, because the amount of diversity in cultures and so forth is different.

 

Of course Arabs aren't inherently brutal, although Islam is a factor even if people want to deny it. I just am suspicious of the claim that a fair historical analysis would lead us to conclude that the europeans were more brutal than arabs. I would wager the differences were negligable.

[Leo Gura]

Most peoples are equally capable of brutality, it's mostly just a matter of circumstance.

[Breakingthewall]

It is obvious that the Europeans have committed more atrocities, since they have been much more aggressive and expansive, that is not the point, the point is that Islam is a philosophy that stagnates the souls of those who fall into it, creating personalities full of hate. sterile, fearful, castrated for art, science, expression. and with a huge inferiority complex towards the West, since really, they are inferior. Without the West they would still be in the Middle Ages. but they refuse to evolve, to abandon their closedness, on the contrary, they deepen in it and in their hatred. So, what is going to be their future? 

[PurpleTree]

That women are being persecuted and worse for not wearing a head scarf in todays times is wilddd

[zurew]

31 minutes ago, StarStruck said:

Time to sanction Israel

Hasan cheering on and rationalizing Hamas muslims killing , raping jews is the most ironic thing in the world.

 

 

Edited October 11, 2023 by zurew

[PurpleTree]

that’s a few days ago

« Activists have accused Iran's morality police of beating a girl for not wearing a hijab and posted a photo purportedly showing her in a coma.

Armita Geravand, 16, collapsed after boarding a Tehran metro train at Shohada station on Sunday.

Officials said she fainted and released CCTV footage in which she is seen being pulled unconscious from the train.

Human rights group Hengaw alleged that she was subjected to "a severe physical assault" by morality police officers. »

 

 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67004886.amp

[Vrubel]

@Leo Gura What I don't get is you try to justify everything that is happening as "natural and circumstances". Will you do the same when every single person in Gaza is wiped out. Will you say: oh it's just development and circumstances so don't demonize the Israelis.  ?

Edited October 11, 2023 by Vrubel

[Leo Gura]

6 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

but they refuse to evolve, to abandon their closedness

Saudi Arabia is evolving pretty rapidly.

[zazen]

2 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

It is obvious that the Europeans have committed more atrocities, since they have been much more aggressive and expansive, that is not the point, the point is that Islam is a philosophy that stagnates the souls of those who fall into it, creating personalities full of hate. sterile, fearful, castrated for art, science, expression. and with a huge inferiority complex towards the West, since really, they are inferior. Without the West they would still be in the Middle Ages. but they refuse to evolve, to abandon their closedness, on the contrary, they deepen in it and in their hatred. So, what is going to be their future? 

 

No civilisation is good or bad in its entirety. But we can't leave out the golden age of Islam and their preservation of and writings of the greeks which some say sparked the 'Western' enlightenment and others say contributed to it. You are categorising almost 2 billion people as hateful and sterile people with no conscience or morals. 

 

 

''Westerners are more mentally ill than they've ever been before and there exists a dearth of rationality in public discourse. Everything's hyper emotionalised and exaggerated, reactive + bereft of stoicism.

Westerners are, quite simply, going nuts, because the natural order has been disrupted, and because the disruption of that order has taken the steady political and communal functioning of their families away from them, and the stability that provides.

Combine that with Godlessness, and you have mass misery. There is no purpose, nor sense of connection to anything - just an endless hedonic treadmill of capital pursuit - an obsession with money. That's all that remains to fill the gaping void left by social breakdown.

And so a high trust culture becomes a low trust culture, and the height of civilization becomes the global laughing stock. Loneliness is greater than ever despite connectivity being greater than ever - a dark and poetic irony. People are miserable, but they think is normal.

And our governments try to export this to you. They try to break you like us, to destroy you in the way they destroyed their own people. And if your government tries to preserve your culture and defy their social edicts, they subject you to regime change to impose their ways.

But the main regime that needs changing is the one that goes around trying to change everyone else's. The regime that broke its own people, then exports its dysfunction globally and labels it progress, when not doing as they say leads to punishment and lack of foreign investment.

As a westerner, I would like to think the west is a force for good in the world - but I struggle to see it. I am not treasonous or self-loathing, I love our heritage, but I am observant. And the culture we are exporting is poisonous. Where we once civilized we simply now corrupt.

The most ardent anti-westerners will of course deny we ever civilized anything at all. That the western man was always evil, never did any good for the world, and deserves the current doom befalling him - I don't believe that, but I appreciate why they might hold this sentiment. ''

[Leo Gura]

6 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

@Leo Gura What I don't get is you try to justify everything that is happening as "natural and circumstances". Will you do the same when every single person in Gaza is wiped out. Will you say: oh it's just development and circumstances so don't demonize the Israelis.

I'm not looking to justify anything. I'm interested in seeing all the perspectives and nuance.

Unlike most people, I am interested in the perspective of terrorists.

Edited October 11, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Scholar]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

Saudi Arabia is evolving pretty rapidly.

They are evolving so rapidly that the Princes have to pretend they are all conservative lest the religious fanatics start a civil war.

[PurpleTree]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

Saudi Arabia is evolving pretty rapidly.

Yea that will be interesting i mean skthough they are destroying yemen, exporting wahabism etc

extremists will probably turn on saudi arabia at some point

[Leo Gura]

3 minutes ago, Scholar said:

They are evolving so rapidly that the Princes have to pretend they are all conservative lest the religious fanatics start a civil war.

Being a billionaire and being conservative is no fun.

[Vrubel]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

I'm not looking to justify anything. I'm interested in seeing all the perspectives and nuance.

I am not saying you support it but you do justify it, like for everything bad and horrendous you feel the need to play it down and relativize it.