Posted January 9 I'm sorry for the Israelis that have been killed as a consequence of this conflict, but it needs to be seen within proper context. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 9 @Nivsch @Nivsch 39 minutes ago, Nivsch said: @zazen Nothing is good enough for the Palestinians. Even when many countries were mediates in the negotiations including Russia and the Arab League. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annapolis_Conference They just know that if they agree a deal, it mean the acceptance of Israel and the Jews right to settle here in an independent state. Their true goal is to diminish Israel completely. According you, nothing is good enough for you, you're just inserting assumptions to the Palestinian side here. They just knew if they accept a deal they accept Israel and the Jews right to settle in Gaza and West Bank, as an independent state is an assumption you're shoe horning to the Palestinians here. Again, another assumption from you, you're projecting the Palestinian's goals as diminishing Israel, when it could be the return of lands Israel took from them, so? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 9 @Nivsch 31 minutes ago, Nivsch said: +1 🧡 Peace isn't their interest. Peace isn't their motivation in life. Their life meaning isn't about to just live in a functional country. Not at all. Israel is like a short circuit gets in the way of the Islamic fundamental point of view having its roots many centuries ago. I will try to find an english version of the interesting interview I heard from a mediteranean expert his claims and perspective are really worth considering. Another bunch of guesses not supported by evidence. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 9 @kenway 2 hours ago, kenway said: Miko Peled, son of Israeli General Mattityahu Peled, speaking about the Israeli Army - October 1, 2012. This is damning. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 9 15 minutes ago, kenway said: I'm sorry for the Israelis that have been killed as a consequence of this conflict, but it needs to be seen within proper context. Everything needs to be seen with context. What happens when two sides with historical and religious ties to the region who hate each other and have been fighting for centuries spills into modern times? This is what happens. The world tries to pigeon hole the story into a simplistic good guy / bad guy narrative. Whichever suits you depending on where you're standing. They're just innocent Palestinians, 100% victims who are akin to the Jews in Nazi Germany. They have no agency in war. Or... these are all terrorists and there are no Palestinian people. Both groups have an underlying religious and zealot like foundation now. They don't care about your arbitrary time cutoff of when it's ok to conquer a land. They don't want peace and coexistence. They want the land. When one side doesn't budge, the other side digs in even harder. It's an endless cycle. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 9 (edited) 19 minutes ago, hundreth said: They don't care about your arbitrary time cutoff of when it's ok to conquer a land. They don't want peace and coexistence. They want the land. +1 ❤ I agree also with the rest but this part is worth emphasizing. It also worth emphasize that Israel, as oppose to the palesinians, has shown very serious desire for peace over the years and there was always one side who rejected all of its proposals. This is true though that the deep right wing in Israel is also problematic and makes the process harder, but still not even close to the degree the palestinians screw up the process again and again. Edited January 9 by Nivsch 🌻 Thinking independently about the spiral stages themselves is important for going through them in an organic, efficient way. If you stick to an external idea about how a stage should be you lose touch with its real self customized process trying to happen inside you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 9 (edited) 50 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said: @Nivsch Another bunch of guesses not supported by evidence. Quite a lot of supported evidence have been accumulated throghout the years from the 1920's until today. Edited January 9 by Nivsch 🌻 Thinking independently about the spiral stages themselves is important for going through them in an organic, efficient way. If you stick to an external idea about how a stage should be you lose touch with its real self customized process trying to happen inside you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 9 8 minutes ago, hundreth said: Everything needs to be seen with context. Agreed. 8 minutes ago, hundreth said: What happens when two sides with historical and religious ties to the region who hate each other and have been fighting for centuries spills into modern times? This is what happens. Maybe true in a general sense, but that's not an accurate reflection of the variables in this instance. Prior to the advent of political zionism, ordinary civilians in the region lived in relative harmony irrespective of whether they were Jews, Arabs, Muslims, Christians. It was only really in the 1920s and theoretical zionism started to get real that the problems began. Ze'ev Jabotinsky writing in the Ha'aretz Daily in 1923:- ".... Settlement can thus develop under the protection of a force that is not dependent on the local population, behind an IRON WALL which they will be powerless to break down. ....a voluntary agreement is just not possible. As long as the Arabs preserve a gleam of hope that they will succeed in getting rid of us, nothing in the world can cause them to relinquish this hope, precisely because they are not rubble but a living people. And a living people will be ready to yield on such fateful issues only when they give up all hope of getting rid of the Alien Settlers. Only then will extremist groups with their slogan 'No, never' lose their influence, and only then their influence be transferred to more moderate groups. And only then will the moderates offer suggestions for compromise. Then only will they begin bargaining with us on practical matters, such as guarantees against PUSHING THEM OUT, and equality of civil, and national rights." This hardcore quasifascist Zionist mindset would go on to define Israel, from its genesis right through to the current (wow-didn't-see-this-coming) genocide. 8 minutes ago, hundreth said: The world tries to pigeon hole the story into a simplistic good guy / bad guy narrative. Whichever suits you depending on where you're standing. Most people aren't born into this world hating Jews nor hating Palestinians. if you happen to be within the sphere of influence of the general area, then sure, there is a conversation to be had about the opinions you hold relative to "where you're standing". The problem is that many people's opinions on Israel/Palestine come from a position of neutrality. And generally, seen through that neutral lens, it becomes obvious that Israel is not just a little bit mischievous, but actually very very very fucking evil. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 9 The name of every person slaughtered in Gaza by Israeli bombings. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 9 (edited) 19 minutes ago, kenway said: And generally, seen through that neutral lens, it becomes obvious that Israel is not just a little bit mischievous, but actually very very very fucking evil. Not at all from neutrality. From a combination of two main positions depending on the population (but there are more less dominant): 1. Stage red to blue point of view holds by hundreds of millions from where aljazeera for example takes its influence. 2. Stage green good intentions but naive "victim-opressor" scheme that doesn't hold at all in this conflict and actually very twisted in many senses in reality. Edited January 9 by Nivsch 🌻 Thinking independently about the spiral stages themselves is important for going through them in an organic, efficient way. If you stick to an external idea about how a stage should be you lose touch with its real self customized process trying to happen inside you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 9 (edited) 2 hours ago, kenway said: @Nivsch Tell me, how do you justify this? I searched and 926 civilians killed from Palestine and 3 civilians killed from Israel. Total killed in Palestine 1166 to 1417 and 13 in Israel (including 4 soldiers death by enemy fire). How does your peace lover Israeli IDF justify this barbarity? Picking the exact time childreen are on the streets to beging bombing is one of the most diabolical things I have ever heard. And they dare call Hamas evil. They are as inhumane. Edited January 9 by Karmadhi Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 9 (edited) 18 minutes ago, kenway said: This hardcore quasifascist Zionist mindset would go on to define Israel, from its genesis right through to the current (wow-didn't-see-this-coming) genocide. The "genocide" claim is a total joke 😄 But problems with IDF behaviour? Yes. Of course there are problems. Edited January 9 by Nivsch 🌻 Thinking independently about the spiral stages themselves is important for going through them in an organic, efficient way. If you stick to an external idea about how a stage should be you lose touch with its real self customized process trying to happen inside you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 9 1 minute ago, Nivsch said: Not at all from neutrality. From a combination of two main positions depending on the population (but there are more less dominant): 1. Stage red to blue point of view holds by handreths of millions from where aljazeera for example takes its influence. 2. Stage green good intentions but naive "victim-opressor" scheme that doesn't hold at all in this conflict and actually very twisted in many senses in reality. Possibly true, but Stage Yellow would spit Israel out no differently. I've already said many times that there's no such thing as family, and that if you love family more than you do strangers you've made a fundamental ontological mistake. Israel is an ethno-state defined by the "fear of death / love of family" animalistic complex that has no place in stage yellow or anything equivalent to that or anything above that. An ethno-state (such as a Jewish state) is fundamentally incompatible with an advanced civilisation, which is precisely why Israel has a shelf life. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 9 1 minute ago, Nivsch said: The "genocide" claim is a total joke 😄 Okay, well the ICJ court case is on Thursday. If you're confident in that one-liner then perhaps you should offer your legal services on behalf of your country. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 9 (edited) @Nivsch 59 minutes ago, Nivsch said: Quite a lot of supported evidence have been accumulated throghout the years from the 1920's until today. List all them empty evidences then. Don't tell me empty claims and educated guesses you have for Palestinians, come with some proof, provided it ain't corrupted and distorted by your side of the aisle. You just empty air at this point. 35 minutes ago, Nivsch said: The "genocide" claim is a total joke 😄 But problems with IDF behaviour? Yes. Of course there are problems. And you telling us these genocidal claims are a joke? Are you serious? Is everyone seeing this? I'll let the readers decide who's the fucking joke here. Edited January 9 by Danioover9000 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 9 (edited) 1 hour ago, Nivsch said: It also worth emphasize that Israel, as oppose to the palesinians, has shown very serious desire for peace over the years and there was always one side who rejected all of its proposals. 2 hours ago, Nivsch said: @zazen Nothing is good enough for the Palestinians. Even when many countries were mediates in the negotiations including Russia and the Arab League. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annapolis_Conference They just know that if they agree a deal, it mean the acceptance of Israel and the Jews right to settle here in an independent state. Their true goal is to diminish Israel completely. Good to see both sides at the table rather than on fighting for sure. The number of proposals is always given as if to show Israel as the peacemaker and the Palestinians as the savages who deny deal after deal - what's left out are the details of the proposals. For example just from the Annapolis conference link you shared: 'Abbas refused to sign on Olmert's peace offer as Olmert did not allow Abbas more than one day to study the map. Nevertheless negotiations continued, but got increasingly difficult as Olmert became entangled in domestic corruption charges.' - surely you should be given more than a day to study the map of what will be your peoples future state. 'The Israeli settlement of Ariel, deep inside a potential Palestinian state, was a controversial issue for Olmert and Abbas' - why would any state have a settlement or area from a former state they had such hostility with which could put their future state at risk. Would Ukrainians ever agree to have a Russian settlement in Ukraine after the war ends? 'Negotiations were formally suspended in January 2009, when Israel invaded the Gaza Strip. But Abbas continued to call on the US to broker a deal.' - sounds like the Palestinian side wanted peace unlike what is portrayed as Abbas called on the US to continue the process. Israels shown a very serious desire for peace? Eating away at land at the West Bank continuously no matter which government has been in power since decades isn't a sign of being serious about it. In the words of Avi Shlaim - Israel is like a man who pretends to be negotiating the division of a pizza while he keeps eating it lol. Edited January 9 by zazen Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 9 @zazen 15 minutes ago, zazen said: Good to see both sides at the table rather than on fighting for sure. The number of proposals is always given as if to show Israel as the peacemaker and the Palestinians as the savages who deny deal after deal - what's left out are the details of the proposals. For example just from the Annapolis conference link you shared: 'Abbas refused to sign on Olmert's peace offer as Olmert did not allow Abbas more than one day to study the map. Nevertheless negotiations continued, but got increasingly difficult as Olmert became entangled in domestic corruption charges.' - surely you should be given more than a day to study the map of what will be your peoples future state. 'The Israeli settlement of Ariel, deep inside a potential Palestinian state, was a controversial issue for Olmert and Abbas' - why would any state have a settlement or area from a former state they had such hostility with which could put their future state at risk. Would Ukrainians ever agree to have a Russian settlement in Ukraine after the war ends? 'Negotiations were formally suspended in January 2009, when Israel invaded the Gaza Strip. But Abbas continued to call on the US to broker a deal.' - sounds like the Palestinian side wanted peace unlike what is portrayed as Abbas called on the US to continue the process. Israels shown a very serious desire for peace? Eating away at land at the West Bank continuously no matter which government has been in power since decades isn't a sign of being serious about it. In the words of Avi Shlaim - Israel is like a man who pretends to be negotiating the division of a pizza while he keeps eating it lol. True, how this isn't part of mainstream news is news to me. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 9 @kenway 1 hour ago, kenway said: The name of every person slaughtered in Gaza by Israeli bombings. OMG, that's a very long scroll of names killed. Damn, that's fucked up. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 9 @kenway 49 minutes ago, kenway said: Okay, well the ICJ court case is on Thursday. If you're confident in that one-liner then perhaps you should offer your legal services on behalf of your country. His legal advice will be denial and lie to the death, and keep calling Daddy USA to protect you from the UN tribunal. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
