Posted January 7 1 minute ago, Danioover9000 said: War is just fucked up for any side involved. Why is the civilian death toll in Ukraine spanning dozens of tows, cities etc not even half of Gaza's? Ukraine population is like 20 times larger too. There are ways to do war with less civilians. And Russians are not angels either. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 7 14 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said: but I am shocked at how this little conflict has made most people stupid, making them feel like they're forced to pick a side, us versus them, binary literal thinking, polarizing the spectrum and so on Well a 165/1 child death ratio between Israel and Gaza does not help on making people neutral and not 1 sided Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 7 @Karmadhi 1 minute ago, Karmadhi said: Why is the civilian death toll in Ukraine spanning dozens of tows, cities etc not even half of Gaza's? Ukraine population is like 20 times larger too. There are ways to do war with less civilians. And Russians are not angels either. Sure, and I'd be curious to hear how you'd suggest the Ukraine/Russia military, or the IDF and HAMMAs how to fight their war. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 7 @Karmadhi Wait a minute, are you more on the pro Palestinian side? Why are you trying to argue with me when I also lean there a bit? Was it the more centrist takes? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 7 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said: Sure, and I'd be curious to hear how you'd suggest the Ukraine/Russia military, or the IDF and HAMMAs how to fight their war. Do not bomb hospitals, schools, areas that you told people to evacuate in the first place, no 2000 paund bombs, no dumb bombs, give more times to civilians to flee, entering tunnels when feasible, do not block aid from UN in the border, do not cut fuel, water electricity, no ridicioulous 50 civilians for 1 terrorist being acceptable etc. These would have been a good start. Edited January 7 by Karmadhi Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 7 @Karmadhi 1 minute ago, Karmadhi said: Do not bomb hospitals, schools, areas that you told people to evacuate in the first place, no 2000 paund bombs, no dumb bombs, give more times to civilians to flee, entering tunnels when feasible, do not block aid from UN in the border, do not cut fuel, water electricity etc. These would have been a good start. I agree, that's a great start. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 7 3 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said: Wait a minute, are you more on the pro Palestinian side? Why are you trying to argue with me when I also lean there a bit? Was it the more centrist takes? I think the civilian death toll could have been way lower than it is, Ukraine being an example of urban fighting with lower civilian death toll. I was neutral at start but when I did research on how inhumanely Israel has treated Palestinians in decades and saw their ridicioulous lies about how mass murdering kids is ok that I became heavy Pro Palestine. Countless kids maimed or dead in social media did not help either. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 7 Oh, and for those reading, Don Beck, co-author of Spiral Dynamics, did in the past try to use Spiral Dynamics to explain, understand and resolve this conflict. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 7 This is from Khan Younis in Southern Gaza. As you can see they are ramping up operations, presumably in case they are ordered to ceasefire following the ICJ hearing. Entire villages and neighbourhoods are now being manually detonated. After all, why go house by house when you can go neighbourhood by neighbourhood? It is clearly obvious for the world to see that Palestinian lives don't matter at all. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 7 Same event. Different camera angle. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 7 (edited) @Karmadhi @Danioover9000 Besides the population density and size of bombs being used, the high civilian casualty compared to Ukraine or other wars must be due to having no where to flee. Also not just the scale of the bombardment but the timescale of it. I wasn’t aware either of how bad the situation was - past 3 months Iv grown to know more about the predicament as has the heart grown heavy in witnessing the suffering. Edited January 7 by zazen Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 7 One more. 1.9 million Palestinians are now homeless. No-one is allowed to leave. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 7 (edited) @kenway It’s crazy how they continue to act and speak in incriminating ways despite knowing of a global hearing in the coming week. Like you said it seems their ramping up bombardments before possibly needing to cease - similar to Lebanon in 2006: ”Over the final days of the conflict, the Israeli use pattern changed dramatically. According to the UN, Israel fired 90 percent of its cluster munitions during the last 72 hours, after the UN Security Council had passed Resolution 1701 calling for a ceasefire on August 11, but before the ceasefire took effect at 8 a.m. on August 14.105 During this period, there was also an intensification of bombardment by other weapons, including artillery strikes as well as the aerial strikes on civilian homes with 500-pound bombs.“ - Human Rights Watch More snippets from recent days: Edited January 7 by zazen Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 7 (edited) @zazen Crazy for sure, but frankly it's also practically Nazism at this point. I find it interesting that in another thread on this forum, there is a lively conversation being had about "understanding the Nazi mindset", and very few of the participants are here on this thread. It seems that people are very good at discussing Nazism 80 years after the fact - but not so good at discussing it as it unfolds in realtime. Even in this thread, there are pro-Israelis that don't even seem to realise that they have slowly turned into actual Nazis. Words used such as savages, animals, swamps, trivialising European protests on the basis that they have large Arab populations, and the trivialisation even of an Israeli, that just happens to have Iranian roots, and therefore isn't someone to be taken seriously. This, ironically, is what happens with ethno-states. Eventually everyone is so far removed from "the others" that it soon becomes an echo chamber of casual racism that anyone from a normal multicultural society would be sickened by. To add ethnic cleansing and genocide into the mix is the natural end result. It's terrifying. If Israel is allowed to continue in its current far right ethno-state form, it is basically signalling to the world that it is only restricted by the mechanics of practicality, not by any degree of morality. Edited January 7 by kenway Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 7 walked by a pro palestine protest few days ago by accident i don‘t know how i feel about the chants “free free palestine“ ok yea that one is kind of lame “from the river to the sea palestine will be free“ not sure how i feel about that one “viva viva palestina“ ^this one is a bit catchy but it’s kind of lame that even in my non english speaking country they use these copy pasted english woke slogans not impressed Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 7 @zazen @kenway 2 hours ago, kenway said: @zazen Crazy for sure, but frankly it's also practically Nazism at this point. I find it interesting that in another thread on this forum, there is a lively conversation being had about "understanding the Nazi mindset", and very few of the participants are here on this thread. It seems that people are very good at discussing Nazism 80 years after the fact - but not so good at discussing it as it unfolds in realtime. Even in this thread, there are pro-Israelis that don't even seem to realise that they have slowly turned into actual Nazis. Words used such as savages, animals, swamps, trivialising European protests on the basis that they have large Arab populations, and the trivialisation even of an Israeli, that just happens to have Iranian roots, and therefore isn't someone to be taken seriously. This, ironically, is what happens with ethno-states. Eventually everyone is so far removed from "the others" that it soon becomes an echo chamber of casual racism that anyone from a normal multicultural society would be sickened by. To add ethnic cleansing and genocide into the mix is the natural end result. It's terrifying. If Israel is allowed to continue in its current far right ethno-state form, it is basically signalling to the world that it is only restricted by the mechanics of practicality, not by any degree of morality. True, but I'm glad it's all recorded for posterity, because the more they record the more they incriminate themselves, the more sins they will keep bearing, the heavier the toll in karma they will have to pay in the future. No way the world will forget this, and no way they're getting scot free. It's truly disgusting of a cycle this is, seems like the only way is more down, more into a sunk cost fallacy that'll be fatal to them. And all this because they crucified a homeless looking wise man for kicking a rich person's table...😔 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 8 (edited) 11 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said: The controversial position on occupation by displacing the Palestinians. This is really tough position I admit. I cannot blame Israel for occupancy of the Gaza, West Bank and th Golan heights. Those positions are of high strategic importance and vital for the security of Israel. Also why is governance in Palestine so incompetent? There must be some powerful entity like the government to rule over Palestine. Whoever ruling them has to ensure they don't harbour terrorist activities in their state. And put an end stop firing rockets onto the other side. Can you really blame Israel for firing rockets when there are rockets coming down to Israel as well? You can always negotiate with Israel to stop bombings. But can you do the same with an unreasonable side. So Israel too matters into it's own hands and took control of the governence of these strategic places. I say that some international entity with significant arab presence must establish law and order in Palestine to make sure that Israel doesn't expand occupations further and don't commit more oppressions. This occupation thing is really complex. Thank you for this. Some saneness. Nearly everyone has already left this thread because of the transparent propaganda it became. People aren't stupid. Edited January 8 by Nivsch 🌻 Thinking independently about the spiral stages themselves is important for going through them in an organic, efficient way. If you stick to an external idea about how a stage should be you lose touch with its real self customized process trying to happen inside you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 8 This is an incredible interview from a former Israeli soldier relating her experience. . Vincit omnia Veritas. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 8 Israeli Kids Torment Principal who was suspended for voicing empathy for Gazan children. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
