New War In Israel / Gaza

[jaylimix]

4 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

How would Palestine ever be a sovereign state when the state next door doesn't allow them to?

Pales won't be a sovereign state because they love terrorism, why?

1) Islam tells them that martyrs go straight to heaven, no judgement by Allah

2) For financial incentives

Edited December 14, 2023 by jaylimix

[Girzo]

38 minutes ago, jaylimix said:

If these missiles were used on unpopulated areas, then it is perfectly fine, no problem with it.

You are huffing too much copium. You don't need to guess where the bombs go, you can see photos of the destruction.

The zeal and ignorance some people in this thread present reminds me of some right-wingers. It's the same pattern of behavior, this time taking sides in a military conflict instead of blindly defending one's favorite politicians on online platforms. It ties in with the post about right-wingers being media illiterate that Leo posted on his blog. I think the root cause is the same.

Edited December 14, 2023 by Girzo

[Leo Gura]

52 minutes ago, jaylimix said:

If these missiles were used on unpopulated areas, then it is perfectly fine, no problem with it.

There are hardly any unpopulated areas in north Gaza. It's like bombing Tokyo.

Edited December 14, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Merkabah Star]

8 hours ago, Vrubel said:

For those who live in the West, just be grateful that you live without war and terrorist massacres and don't know what it implies. You're still innocent and therefore naive and ignorant about these aspects of life. 

We are not naive and ignorant, that’s you projecting on us. 
 

you live in a bubble and have a cultural mindset that is unique to your country. 
 

only Israel can bring peace and awaken.

Ceasefire now!
 

 

[Merkabah Star]

5 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

   Can we observe a 7 day break from this thread? We really have some nut cases here derailing and trolling the thread, instigating with little regard.

The ignore function works well. Try it. Cleans up the poop. 💩

[jaylimix]

49 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

There are hardly any unpopulated areas in north Gaza. It's like bombing Tokyo.

It's unpopulated after most of the civilians moved south.

Let's not forget that Pales have fired over 11,000 homemade rockets into Israel, with a 20% malfunction rate.

I wonder how many of these rockets did Pales killed themselves with, watch and let me know.

 

[jaylimix]

1 hour ago, Girzo said:

1) You don't need to guess where the bombs go, you can see photos of the destruction.

2) The zeal and ignorance some people in this thread present reminds me of some right-wingers.

1) Of course there is destruction, we can all see that. The context is most of the civilians have already moved south.

2) You are too far to the left, which is too fantasiful and too illogical. 

[Jayson G]

To everyone and @Leo Gura

Wanted to share an account I have been following, this girl is living in Gaza, reporting on it.

Here is the instagram profile: https://www.instagram.com/wizard_bisan1/

She is very well-spoken. 

She is receiving overwhelming support, half a million likes per post, which is nice to see that so many around the world are rooting for her and the palestinians. 

I personally learned a lot and can empathize more with palestinians. She is constantly reporting from a first person's perspective, things like the delusions she and her family are experiencing, live footage, daily challenges .. whats heartbreaking is seeing how she went from a normal instagram girl to her current situation, if you look at her past posts. 

Subtle things like how she would care about instagram filters in the past, and now no care in the world. War would do that to you, make you let go of petty things like IG filters. Small, but I think it matters. 

[Lila9]

10 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

You spread self-bias with no remorse.

There is a significant bias here in favor of Palestine, with extensive demonization of Israel and misinformation. Why are you blind to that?

Of course, if I see someone consuming and sharing incorrect data, I will correct them and explain the other perspective. Don't expect me to support incorrect and misinformed posts just to appear more unbiased for you.

[Lila9]

9 hours ago, Nivsch said:

What did you do, if you had for 18 years, every 1-2 years on average, to go for a quite surgical, limited but smart, intelligence-based operation against a gerilla organization because it just doesn't stop shooting missiles on your villages and cities.

And every time again, this organization hides behind civilians, what makes western countries who also holds your values, who are supposed to understand your side, to blame you again and again, when you feel this is such an unjustness, because you know you try hard to kill only terrorists.

But they are champion genius in showing a distorted exaggerated picture to the world and to hide behind their own people. And please check in wikipedia the killing ratio then that was 80% and more to the favor of terrorists quite decent.

But your hands are being bounded every time after couple of days or maximum weeks, again and again.

And one day this organization which exhuasted you for 18 years, kills 1200 people of you and in such a nightmarish way. Threatening your sense of security and survival in a way you never experienced before, and plus (bonus) when you know hezbollah could also join this surprise (By the original Iranian plan according to reliable sources I can add them) and threaten your very existance seriously.

This post summes the situation of Israel so well. It's a frustrating situation.

9 hours ago, Nivsch said:

But they are champion genius in showing a distorted exaggerated picture to the world and to hide behind their own people. And please check in wikipedia the killing ratio then that was 80% and more to the favor of terrorists quite decent.

But your hands are being bounded every time after couple of days or maximum weeks, again and again.

This is so true, they are masters at marketing.

 

[Lila9]

9 hours ago, Vrubel said:

For those who care about objective thinking can use the Israeli perspective as valuable puzzle pieces.

This.

It seems that there is more talk about going meta and finger-pointing than actually making attempts to do so.

[Leo Gura]

19 minutes ago, Lila9 said:

There is a significant bias here in favor of Palestine, with extensive demonization of Israel and misinformation. Why are you blind to that?

I'm not blind to it. If someome blindly simps for Hamas we will call it out.

[Lila9]

9 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

I sent you many sources. And none of them are Arab sources. If you do not accept any of them it shows more about your biases than anything else. You can also do research yourself, i found plenty of other sources which I did not send here. So plenty of information about it. At least the other guy @Nivsch is objective enough to recognize such stuff happened. 

No doubt that Niv is an intelligent guy who sees things both from a stage Yellow and the Israeli perspective and I glad that you value his opinion, it's a positive sign that there is a movement towards more high quality discussions.

I understand that I might come as too self-biased, but I want to empathize that I don't completely deny mistreatment of Israelies, which are often radical settlers, towards Palestinians, I'm very aware to that and believe me or not, it always was in the realm of my concerns. There is a place for criticism and improvement.

However, when you share data that is either too biased and ignore the complete picture, or simply share data that is incorrect, I wouldn't accept it and would point to you the other perspective to make you see the whole picture.

By your posts, you are very biased towards Palestinians and validly concerned with the mistreatment of Israelies towards Palestinians but you deliberately choose to ignore, the actions Palestinians do which led to this response from Israel and insist of seeing Israel as someone who hurt Palestinians without any reason or for arbitrary reasons, which is not the case.

If you really interested in the complete picture and not only information that suits your bias, you need to understand how Palestinians are raised, how they are groomed since a very young age by terrorist organizations with violent and antisemitic doctrine and be critical of it as well.

You need to understand that Israeli people live in fear from terror attacks coming from the Palestinian territories, that they have killed Israeli people by committing surprising terror attacks, especially in occasions when we are the most vulnarble like holidays and internal conflicts within ourselves.

It seems that you don't have compassion towards the Israeli perspective and you are fully dismissive of it.

 

 

 

Edited December 14, 2023 by Lila9

[Girzo]

1 hour ago, jaylimix said:

2) You are too far to the left, which is too fantasiful and too illogical. 

This is exactly my point. You act like you know me, just like you act know-it-all about this conflict.

[Lila9]

24 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I'm not blind to it. If someome blindly simps for Hamas we will call it out.

There are people here who seem to simp for Hamas or, at the very least, not address Hamas' faults and legitimately criticize it.

[kenway]

From "Distinction and Loss of Civilian Protection in International Armed Conflicts"  - Yoram Dinstein

https://digital-commons.usnwc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1148&context=ils

 

"It is almost axiomatic that, as a rule, all enemy combatants can be lawfully attacked directly-at all times--during an international armed conflict. This can be done whether they are advancing, retreating or remaining stationary, and, whether they are targeted in groups or individually. There are, however, a number of caveats: (i) the attack must be carried out outside neutral territory, (ii) it is not allowed when a ceasefire is in effect, (iii) no prohibited weapons may be used, (iv) no perfidious methods of warfare may be resorted to, (v) combatants are not to be attacked once they become hors de combat (by choice (surrendered personnel) or because they are wounded, sick or shipwrecked), and (vi) the attack must not be expected to cause excessive injury to civilians.

The hallmark of civilian status in wartime is that, in contrast to combatants, civilians-as well as civilian objects--enjoy protection from attack by the enemy. Intentionally directing attacks against civilians (not taking direct part in hostilities) or civilian objects is a war crime under Article 8(2)(b)(i)-(ii) of the 1998 Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court.

The term "attack" in this context means any act of violence, understood in the widest possible sense (including a non -kinetic attack), as long as it entails loss of life, physical or psychological injury, or damage to property. Attacks do not include non-forcible acts, such as non-injurious psychological warfare. The line of division between what is permissible and what is not is accentuated by computer network attacks (CNA). These would qualify as attacks within the accepted definition only if they engender-through reverberating effects--human casualties or damage to property (it being understood that a completely disabled computer is also damaged property).

It is illegal to launch an attack the primary purpose of which is to spread terror among the civilian population. The prohibition is applicable even if the attacker has every reason to believe that such a terror campaign will shatter the morale of the civilian population-so that the enemy's determination to pursue the armed conflict will be eroded-and the war will be brought to a rapid conclusion (saving, as a result, countless lives on both sides). Yet, an important rider is in order. What counts here is not the actual effect of the attack but its purpose or intent: an attack is not forbidden unless terrorizing civilians is its primary aim. Nothing precludes mounting an otherwise lawful attack against combatants and military objectives, even if the net outcome (due to resonating "shock. and awe") is the collapse of civilian morale and the laying down of arms by the enemy.

The principle of distinction excludes not only deliberate attacks against civilians, but also indiscriminate attacks, i.e., instances in which the attacker does not target any specific military objective (due either to indifference as to whether the ensuing casualties will be civilians or combatants or, alternatively, to inability to control the effects of the attack). A leading example is the launching by Iraq of Scud missiles against military objectives located in or near residential areas in Israel in 1991, notwithstanding the built-in imprecision of the Scuds which made accuracy in acquiring military objectives virtually impossible (and, in the event, no military objective was struck)."

[zazen]

22 hours ago, jaylimix said:

Nuance is important here, and what is it?

Apartheid is within one country, not between two countries.

A blockade from a genocidal neighbor is not apartheid, apartheid happens only within a single country itself.

You call it a blockade between two countries, it's not rocket science.

There's only one country here not two - Israel. Apartheid simply means a two tiered legal system which is discriminatory.

 

Edited December 15, 2023 by zazen

[Leo Gura]

52 minutes ago, Lila9 said:

There are people here who seem to simp for Hamas or, at the very least, not address Hamas' faults and legitimately criticize it.

Frankly, the situation is asymmetrical. Hamas's evils are quite obvious to any reasonable person. But Israeli evils are much more sneaky and sophisticated. Israel is a lot better at bullshitting than Hamas is. It's hard to bullshit you way out of a terrorist attack. But Israel's entire policy is full of so much deception, BS, and bias in all sorts of subtle ways that requires lots of intelligence to detect.

My intelligence goes to where it is most needed.

Edited December 14, 2023 by Leo Gura

[zazen]

I think a problem may be that people get hung up on the literal definitions of words too much and play semantics. If words are taken too literally of course they won't define what your trying to define, but also if their stretched to fit in things to absurd degrees to the point those words become only metaphorical then of course they can't be used to communicate effectively either.

Edited December 15, 2023 by zazen

[Nivsch]

26 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Frankly, the situation is asymmetrical. Hamas's evils are quite obvious to any reasonable person. But Israeli evils are much more sneaky and sophisticated. Israel is a lot better at bullshitting than Hamas is. It's hard to bullshit you way out of a terrorist attack. But Israel's entire policy is full of so much deception, BS, and bias in all sorts of subtle ways that requires lots of intelligence to detect.

My intelligence goes to where it is most needed.

Could you explain with at least some key examples?