New War In Israel / Gaza

[Raze]

50 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Hamas doesn't want to global domination but their stated goal is to elimate Israel. This pretty much forces Israel to eliminate them.

As evil as Israel is, Hamas is more evil. So we've got a battle between two devils here.

Not that simple, see this response from Chomsky 

Quote

NOAM CHOMSKY: Very simple. First of all, Hamas charter means practically nothing. The only people who pay attention to it are Israeli propagandists, who love it. It was a charter put together by a small group of people under siege, under attack in 1988. And it’s essentially meaningless. There are charters that mean something, but they’re not talked about. So, for example, the electoral program of Israel’s governing party, Likud, states explicitly that there can never be a Palestinian state west of the Jordan River. And they not only state it in their charter, that’s a call for the destruction of Palestine, explicit call for it. And they don’t only have it in their charter, you know, their electoral program, but they implement it. That’s quite different from the Hamas charter.

 

[Majed]

@Leo Gura but isn't it a little bit too ambitious from them to want to eliminate israel. like it sounds ridiculous that hamas would eliminate israel. it's like andrew tate vs leo gura when it comes to spirituality. 

[Nivsch]

@Raze Instead of cherry pick crazy extremists from the stands all the time like this thread is saturated with, try to just listen to the players themselves. Leaders and even more so citizens. This will help much more.

Edited December 10, 2023 by Nivsch

[Leo Gura]

You can find interview with Hamas spokesperson who says they will keep repeating more terrorist attacks until they elimimate Israel. This is their official position:

It's not possible to live peacefully alongside such an ideology. Netanyahu is correct when he says so. That is not propaganda.

Edited December 10, 2023 by Leo Gura

[zazen]

@Leo Gura @Raze @How to be wise

Both sides have mutually exclusive claims that are self terminating especially if we look solely to their founding document and charter - including the Likud parties which won't recognise any Palestinian sovereignty from the river to the sea. If Israel are unable to live peacefully alongside such a ideology Palestinians are unable to live peacefully alongside Likud parties and the extremist ideological version of Zionism that has become manifest.

Both sides founding documents were written decades ago and parties evolve so we can only look at more recent times actions. From the Israeli side we see settlement expansion on what could have been the Palestinians state and from Hamas though they softened and revised their charter to not call for the destruction of Israel in 2017 their actions and words in present day show otherwise.

Each reacting to the other. After Hamas revised their charter the following year in 2018 the tried the great march of return which shows they attempted peaceful protest and in which Israel shot at disabled people, press and medics which could clearly be seen. They blow the knee cap of thousands. It wasn't totally peaceful but from which side we will not know - did some Palestinians start becoming unpeaceful and throwing rocks during the march to escalate things or did Israel shoot first and they react as such.

It seems they have no avenue but terrorism when the BDS (economic protest) movement is prevented, peaceful marches (peaceful protest) turn into blood bath and kneecapping sports for the IDF. Then when they see Israel and the Arab world building ties (Abraham accords) which completely leaves them out the picture they feel thrown under the bus further, and the increasing settlement expansion and violence in the West Bank this year - all this culminated in them lashing out and going back to a extreme stance it seems.  The fact of the lack of IDF on the October 7th attack is revealing - they were all mostly in the West Bank - why? Due to settler drama and expansion. 

So its tricky to say who started what and who's reacting to what. It seems Hamas started this battle but the war was started by the extremist brand of Zionism. 

 

Edited December 10, 2023 by zazen

[Leo Gura]

@zazen Why are you making appeals to some ancient charter when I gave you an interview with their current position?

Don't weasel around.

Edited December 10, 2023 by Leo Gura

[zazen]

8 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@zazen Why are you making appeals to some ancient charter when I gave you an interview with their current position?

Don't weasel around.

I followed up by saying their present day actions and position isn't one of peace if you read beyond the first paragraph - just like you responded only to the first paragraph of my other post - but I understand your busy so I've underlined it. 

It would be easier to only look at present day but we need to look at what caused both sides to get to today. They reap what they sow and if they sow the wind they will reap the whirlwind of todays destruction. 

Edited December 10, 2023 by zazen

[lina]

8 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Hamas doesn't want to global domination but their stated goal is to elimate Israel. This pretty much forces Israel to eliminate them.

As evil as Israel is, Hamas is more evil. So we've got a battle between two devils here.

Under which criteria are you measuring devilry? Is it actions or intent? Both are guilty of terrorism but one side's damage is 10X more than the other. As for the intent, one was initially motivated by superiority, separateness, exploitation as well as protection, while the other main motivation has always been resistance and refusal to submit. 

One side started this whole circle of violence and the other is a creation of and reaction to that violence. 

Ahmed Yassin, the politician and Imam who founded Hamas said in his own words:

" We don’t hate Jews and fight Jews because they are Jewish. They are a people of faith and we are a people of faith, and we love all people of faith. If my brother, from my own mother and father and my own faith takes my homes and expels me from it, I will fight him. I will fight my cousin if he takes my home and expels me from it. So when a Jew takes my home and expels me from it, I will fight him. I don’t fight other countries because I want to be at peace with them, I love all people and wish peace for them, even the Jews. The Jews lived with us all of our lives and we never assaulted them, and they held high positions in government and ministries. But if they take my home and make me a refugee like 4 million Palestinians in exile? Who has more right to this land? The Russian immigrant who left this land 2000 years ago or the one who left 40 years ago? We don’t hate the Jews, we only ask for them to give us our rights.”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmed_Yassin#

As for his justification for killing civilians he said it was in retaliation "Israel is targeting Palestinian civilians, so Israeli civilians should be targeted" . 

Of course I don't agree with this because there is zero justification for killing any civilian, but his statement just shows the initial intent for Hamas has always been resistance.

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

@zazen Why are you making appeals to some ancient charter when I gave you an interview with their current position?

What about Netanyahu though?  he said it himself using words and showed by his actions that he has been actively killing all hopes for a Palestinian state, how is this different from aspiring to destroy Israel?  Actually even in this case, Israel is more evil because it's doing it in action while the other side is just uttering about it with no real power, possibility or action. 

Also saying it's a battle between two devils here is very inaccurate. In reality, it's a battle between IDF and Palestinian civilians in hope for them to reach a final point and make them turn over Hamas.  

Edited December 10, 2023 by lina

[zazen]

@lina True words. In fact former Prime Minister Rabin who wanted peace was assassinated by Bibi's incitement from a far right extremist.

''Rabin was murdered on November 4, 1995, by Yigal Amir, an extremist Jew, who was opposed to the Oslo Accords and the handing over of control of parts of the West Bank to the Palestinians as a part of a landmark peace agreement.

In the weeks before the assassination, Netanyahu, then head of the opposition, and other senior Likud members attended a right-wing political rally in Jerusalem where protesters branded Rabin a “traitor,” “murderer,” and “Nazi” for signing a peace agreement with the Palestinians earlier that year.''

And if we like to just look at present day we have Netanyahu citing a biblical reference to “Amalek” in the context of the “destruction of Hamas” and to “eradicate this evil from the world.”  A highly intentional religious justification for Israel’s ethnic cleansing of Gaza’s Palestinian innocents.

The “annihilate Amalek” theme invokes support from the divine in this modern crusade to exterminate the Amalekites, interpreted today as every Palestinian. Genocidally charged language that Bibi references to get support from American evangelical Christian Zionists. Their propaganda is not only domestic but to the US “market” as one Israeli spokesperson described it - because it is a market that provides financial support and diplomatic shielding to their agenda.

Heres a video of your quote by Yassin:

 

Edited December 10, 2023 by zazen

[lina]

24 minutes ago, Nabd said:

Same could be said about pro Palestine people who don't understand that Hamas was created by Israel or that Hamas first victims are Palestinians and that Gazans generally were opposed to Hamas. Even if today a Gazan is on video saying "fuck Hamas kill them all", pro Palestine person will think its a fake by Israel propaganda. An ally of Iran is not interested in your freedom. Iran already made it clear how they feel about Palestinians when they sieged and slaughtered Palestinians in Yarmouk.

Making moral comparisons has nothing to do with support. The whole point of this conversation is show that what's currently happening in Gaza is completely unjustifiable on all levels no matter how harmful Hamas is, 99% of the destruction inflicted now is largely on civilians, Getting rid of Hamas without getting rid of the Israeli right wing gov means the end of the Palestinian cause as they are getting ethnically cleansed at the moment. It's about placing  pressure on the side that actually has the power to change the situation, which is Israel not Hamas. 

Edited December 10, 2023 by lina

[zazen]

There are facts and then there are the moral judgment of those facts. The fact is both sides commit terrorist acts and are devils committing evil. The scale of a act doesn't absolve the agent of that act from being labelled a terrorist, there can be state terrorism too. If we say Palestinians are Hamas's first victims or any people who the terrorist claim to be fighting for - we have to ask what enables the existence of those terrorists in the first place, what enabled their cause they claim to fight for? 

As far as legalities, it's in the Palestinians right to resist occupation, even armed resistance - a legal grey area comes when they start using terrorist methods and attacking civilians yes.

They are occupied and addressed as such by all the relevant bodies and nation states including the US and UK who are Israel's allies - so that isn't even disputed which is a common rebuttal.

As far as who has the moral high ground and is the more evil side - a group that are expansionist in their aspirations at the expense of anything in the way including natives in the way of that expansion seem more evil than the group of natives who's aspiration is one of localised resistant defence. The difference is the native inhabitant views it as a territorial defensive dispute of their home land and the other a conquest legitimised by religious sentiment that claims it as their homeland 2'000 years ago.

A groups rights and moral high ground stops the minute they start infringing upon another existing groups - which is what the case is here. I am not approving Hamas's tactics, just analysing the place from which it comes - understanding doesn't mean endorsement. 

People who were once deemed terrorists such as Mandela of South Africa or Mat Turner of the slave revolt are today deemed heroes of emancipation. The elites are not morally consistent in applying their definitions, labels and judgements but morally strategic in applying them to their allies and to their interests. Morality and values then are used more as political sticks to undermine adversarial and hostile people and states rather than as a matter of principle.

Edited December 10, 2023 by zazen

[zazen]

@Nabd Agreed and thanks for also pointing out that the Palestinians among them also abuse their cause. They may withstand the genocide/massacre but the point I think Lina also made is that what events set in motion for them (Hamas) to exist in the first place and which party has more power to affect change - Palestinian people disempowered and beholden to Hamas or a state body such as Israel with one of the most advanced militaries in the world and a superpower behind it.

Most people don't see this as complicated - that the Palestinian treatment over decades is unjust. What is complicated is the solution or how we get to the solution with such vested interests on both sides who benefit from the status quo staying as it is. There exists a whole category of Palestinian leadership who profit from the suffering of the Palestinian cause as do Western interests in having a excuse in the Middle East as Biden once said (if there were no Israel we need to create one) to pursue geopolitical goals in a resource rich region.

Who caused that cause (Palestinians) to exist in the first place that could be exploited on both ends - a cause that most with a moral conscience support though it doesn't mean we support those who hijack that cause for personal gain such as Hamas.

Legally and morally I think the Palestinians are more in the right - they are the more aggrieved party in this situation. So I will side with their cause, but that doesn't mean I will always side in how they go about achieving their cause. Just as I support Israel's right to exist and defend itself but not the way in which they exist currently at the expense of the natives of that land or how they go about defending themselves killing innocents.

The Palestinians emancipation is also the Israeli's emancipation - Israel will free itself from the stained negative reputation it has worldwide that it needs to waste resources on propaganda for in order to rid itself of.

People on this forum are a minority and a lot of the world are unconscious and ignorant and easily associate people with their governments - Israeli's won't need to tackle indirect hostility or cold shoulders from people in the world due to this.

That could all end with the Palestinians being given their rights and dignity. The burden of being a constant warden of a captive population and fearing for resistant retaliation which keep them in a constant state of fear and that cunning leaders like Bibi exploit for political power can end so they can put their energy to more noble pursuits.

[bariumly]

speaking of morals, here's what COWARDS do ! They don't fight with honor , they have evil inside themselves no matter how they pretend to show otherwise

 

[Nivsch]

@zazen You are creating toxic and dangerous symmetry betweem both sides which has nothing to do with the truth.

I can admit many problems Israel has and need to take responisibility to, but I can't agree to participate in a symmetry game.

A serious discussion cannot be done by a cherry picking stratrgy of extremist claims creating a fake map of symmetry between an uttely cruel side who honor death in its essense ("Shuhada"/"Shaid") and way of life and education, and a side who honor life.

And if you think its a childish cliche, ask the Gazans activists who appeal to hamas and they will proudly say to you the exact same thing. This is real even if hard to believe.

Edited December 10, 2023 by Nivsch

[Lila9]

3 hours ago, bariumly said:

speaking of morals, here's what COWARDS do ! They don't fight with honor , they have evil inside themselves no matter how they pretend to show otherwise

 

Lol they burn the candies supply which was given by Gaza citizens to the Hamas terrorists on October 7 attack.

Gaza citizens celebrated the massacre of Israeli people with those candies. The IDF soldiers burn those candies as a symbol of fighting against the terror. 

The amount of misinformation and the distortion of the truth on social media is fascinating.

 

Edited December 10, 2023 by Lila9

[Nivsch]

2 hours ago, Lila9 said:

Lol they burn the candies supply which was given by Gaza citizens to the Hamas terrorists on October 7 attack.

Gaza citizens celebrated the massacre of Israeli people with those candies. The IDF soldiers burn those candies as a symbol of fighting against the terror. 

The amount of misinformation and the distortion of the truth on social media is fascinating.

 

Oh I didn't realize its actually candies for terror attack celebrations! 🍡🍬🧨🚀🔥

What an immoral soldiers 😒😄

No this is so bad I must balanced it out with some good news....

 

Edited December 10, 2023 by Nivsch

[Lila9]

25 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

 

Oh I didn't realize its actually candies for terror attack celebrations! 🍡🍬🧨🚀🔥

What an immoral soldiers 😒😄

No this is so bad I must balanced it out with some good news....

 

It's funny that when IDF are symbolically burning candies they are "the most evil in the world" but when Hamas raping women, beheading babies, burning people alive, they are freedom fighters, defending themselves and doing legitimate act of resistance.

This level of hypocrisy... 🙄

Is beyond my understanding.

I hope this elderly woman in the article you shared will not find herself dead by some Hamas terrorist because she "cooperated with Israel". I hope Hamas wouldn't put their hands on her.

They have no heart or mercy.

 

 

Edited December 10, 2023 by Lila9

[Leo Gura]

6 hours ago, zazen said:

There are facts and then there are the moral judgment of those facts. The fact is both sides commit terrorist acts and are devils committing evil.

Evil is not a fact, it is a judgment.

[Danioover9000]

@zazen

5 hours ago, zazen said:

@Nabd Agreed and thanks for also pointing out that the Palestinians among them also abuse their cause. They may withstand the genocide/massacre but the point I think Lina also made is that what events set in motion for them (Hamas) to exist in the first place and which party has more power to affect change - Palestinian people disempowered and beholden to Hamas or a state body such as Israel with one of the most advanced militaries in the world and a superpower behind it.

Most people don't see this as complicated - that the Palestinian treatment over decades is unjust. What is complicated is the solution or how we get to the solution with such vested interests on both sides who benefit from the status quo staying as it is. There exists a whole category of Palestinian leadership who profit from the suffering of the Palestinian cause as do Western interests in having a excuse in the Middle East as Biden once said (if there were no Israel we need to create one) to pursue geopolitical goals in a resource rich region.

Who caused that cause (Palestinians) to exist in the first place that could be exploited on both ends - a cause that most with a moral conscience support though it doesn't mean we support those who hijack that cause for personal gain such as Hamas.

Legally and morally I think the Palestinians are more in the right - they are the more aggrieved party in this situation. So I will side with their cause, but that doesn't mean I will always side in how they go about achieving their cause. Just as I support Israel's right to exist and defend itself but not the way in which they exist currently at the expense of the natives of that land or how they go about defending themselves killing innocents.

The Palestinians emancipation is also the Israeli's emancipation - Israel will free itself from the stained negative reputation it has worldwide that it needs to waste resources on propaganda for in order to rid itself of.

People on this forum are a minority and a lot of the world are unconscious and ignorant and easily associate people with their governments - Israeli's won't need to tackle indirect hostility or cold shoulders from people in the world due to this.

That could all end with the Palestinians being given their rights and dignity. The burden of being a constant warden of a captive population and fearing for resistant retaliation which keep them in a constant state of fear and that cunning leaders like Bibi exploit for political power can end so they can put their energy to more noble pursuits.

   True, in the short term it's fucked up what Israel and Palestinians are doing to each other, HAMAs versus the IDF and Zionists, involving their citizens into unnecessary conflicts. Until HAMAs stops existing, and until Zionists stop existing we will have this long term culture warfare between the occupying Israelis and the defending Palestinians, there will be no long term peace if Israel keeps grabbing their lands and secretly genocide Palestinians, and there can be no peace if Palestinians can't self govern and gain enough military to not be taken over by another HAMAs. 

[Nivsch]

1 hour ago, Lila9 said:

It's funny that when IDF are symbolically burning candies they are "the most evil in the world" but when Hamas raping women, beheading babies, burning people alive, they are freedom fighters, defending themselves and doing legitimate act of resistance.

This level of hypocrisy... 🙄

Is beyond my understanding.

I hope this elderly woman in the article you shared will not find herself dead by some Hamas terrorist because she "cooperated with Israel". I hope Hamas wouldn't put their hands on her.

They have no heart or mercy.

 

 

I think the women won't be punished because of the fairly naive situation.

But yes this is a problem Gazans face and they are so scared to tell authentic feeling against hamas especially in public, but there are such voices in the last days starting to appear.

@Lila9 From where are you?

Happy 4th candle🕯

Edited December 10, 2023 by Nivsch