New War In Israel / Gaza

[Vrubel]

If you're pro-Palestine you must realize that the silent majority is turned off by your protests and talking points, they can see through the low-brow herd mentality and blatent hypocrisy. Yesterday an anti-Islam party became by far the biggest in Dutch elections. I didn't vote for them but I think it's no coincidence they won so overwhelmingly at this time. 

Edited November 24, 2023 by Vrubel

[zazen]

3 hours ago, Vrubel said:

 

That's a very vile thing to say. You have no idea how they treat the hostages, especially the most vulnerable ones. Also, Stockholm syndrome is the only way people can cope with the trauma of kidnapping and total loss of control. There is a difference between imprisonment and being kept hostage by a terror group.

Can you imagine being totally at the mercy of your terrorist captors.

I'd struggle to imagine being at the mercy of terrorist captors, maybe we can ask Gazans though. Not sure how the hostages have been treated but just to point out that some view them as completely barbaric and wanting to kill Jews (and some of them are and did on October 7th) and they haven't gone and killed the hostages all the while being bombarded to an absurd degree.

Can you imagine having 25'000 tonnes of bombs dropped on where you are in Gaza - equivalent to 2 nuclear bombs. Hiroshima's bomb was 15'000 tonnes for comparison, and Hiroshima is about 3 times bigger than Gaza. And you have to try keep hostages safe in this situation with your life on the line doing so - apparently people you utterly hate. 

Whats vile is the attitude towards Palestinians and the dehumanization of them. Whilst this whole hostage swap is going on people are wondering 'hey, how come Israel have women and children prisoners.' to begin with. Even the liberal leftist opposition party in Israel claims that most of the deaths in Gaza are just terrorists hamas fighters. 

 

Edited November 24, 2023 by zazen

[zazen]

3 hours ago, Vrubel said:

If you're pro-Palestine you must realize that the silent majority is turned off by your protests and talking points, they can see through the low-brow herd mentality and blatent hypocrisy. Yesterday an anti-Islam party became by far the biggest in Dutch elections. I didn't vote for them but I think it's no coincidence they won so overwhelmingly at this time. 

Blatant hypocrisy? The West are supporting Ukraine that's full of neo-Nazis who hate Jews and then go on to support Israel in the name of supporting the Jewish people and their homeland. Remember when the Canadian parliament applauded a man who fought for the Nazi's just last month then backtracked once it got media attention and backlash.

Western imperialists don't actually stand for what they claim to stand for, and their framing of where they stand in these conflicts is a cloaked lie. The empire just supports who it supports because that's where its interests happen to be at the time. What is hypocritical is inflicting violence and destruction throughout the world in order to pursue planetary hegemony while lying about your reasons for doing so.

Concepts like democracy and human rights are not values they wish to promote as much as they are political sticks used against adversarial nations - these nations are aggressively criticized for human rights violations and lack of democracy. It also appeases domestic Westerners as it gives us a sense of righteousness - that our states are going to instill great values and democracy to those nations. It allows us in the West who are comfortable and not used to harsher realities to stomach our empire going around the world dick swinging its power and causing carnage.

Paying lip service to democracy and human rights is just one tactic in their playbook to create the façade of moral authority, all the while tactfully undermining governments that go against them.

Edited November 24, 2023 by zazen

[Vrubel]

48 minutes ago, zazen said:

Whats vile is the attitude towards Palestinians and the dehumanization of them. Whilst this whole hostage swap is going on people are wondering 'hey, how come Israel have women and children prisoners.' to begin with. Even the liberal leftist opposition party in Israel claims that most of the deaths in Gaza are just terrorists hamas fighters. 

It's not about dehumanizing Palestinians. It's absolutely tragic what's happening, I do view them as humans and I do squirm whenever I see human suffering. But that doesn't mean I drop all of the context and my critical thinking. I don't buy into your false equivalencies of comparing Israel to Hamas (the Israel=terrorist bullshit) and I don't compare innocent Israeli toddlers being held hostage by death cult terrorists to interned thuggish Palestinian teenagers.

There is a certain cold realism to my view. For example, I am also Russian. I certainly don't dehumanize Russians. In fact, I have a lot of love for Russians and feel a genuine connection but at the same time, I can view a situation in a cold realistic way and understand why Ukraine has to kill some Russians. I don't make false equivalencies between Ukraine and Russia. 
There was lately the bombing by Ukraine of a theater filled with Russian soldiers and there was an innocent woman performing for them, she died too. I was really disgusted by that, really sad but at the same time, it would be insane and stupid of me to blame Ukraine and be angry at them.

Edited November 25, 2023 by Vrubel

[zazen]

.@Vrubel I didn't mean you are dehumanizing Palestinians, just generally those that do. I wasn't equivocating toddlers being taken hostage to thuggish teens but rounding up teens or children even if they have 'misbehaved' without charge, trial or access to their parents or lawyers is bad enough in my books to be called out.

You mentioned the silent majority are turned off at Pro-Palestinian protests and talking points. I don't like to see it as Pro one side or the other but I do clearly see that if the root cause of suffering that is the occupation ends that will be pro both sides. Palestinian liberation will liberate the Israeli's of having to play prison guard on watch and dedicate resources to immense amounts of propaganda to hide the truth and continuously wash the stain that is occupation in a post-occupation, post colonial world - and that they get a bad image for.

I'd say to that any individuals expressing anger towards pro-Palestinians are, at best, comical and at worst, pitiful. Criticizing those who advocate for freedom from a long-standing oppressive regime is absurd. The atrocity of October 7 reflects the accumulated violence imposed by Israel on Palestinians for decades. It's similar to foolishly resenting an echo for responding, or a man being angered by his own shadow darkening the floor.

[Vrubel]

26 minutes ago, zazen said:

You mentioned the silent majority are turned off at Pro-Palestinian protests and talking points. I don't like to see it as Pro one side or the other but I do clearly see that if the root cause of suffering that is the occupation ends that will be pro both sides. Palestinian liberation will liberate the Israeli's of having to play prison guard on watch and dedicate resources to immense amounts of propaganda to hide the truth and continuously wash the stain that is occupation in a post-occupation, post colonial world - and that they get a bad image for.

You must admit it's not that simple. Notice how the 7/10 attack came from Gaza, a piece of land Israel doesn't control. Hamas is actually more popular in the West Banks but because Israel has the ability to do regular raids there it keeps terrorist activities in check even though it can look ugly at times to outsiders. Obviously, there needs to be a solution. I think two states is the most realistic one but the Palestinian state definitely needs to be demilitarized. This will be a tricky question. Also, any Palestinian country will be very precarious as the population is deeply stage red and I can predict there will be constant altercations amongst themselves and periodic lashing out at Israel even when independent. 

Obviously, there are legitimate and valid ways to be pro-Palestine. I have a lot of respect for Israeli peace activists for example. But those protests we saw in Europe have put a lot of people off because they are very low-brow and horde-like, some were violent others outright supported Hamas. Don't be naive about the extremely low level of intelligence and integrity within these demonstrations. Badly integrated Muslim immigrant communities combined with extreme leftwing people turn the silent majority off, and you can't really blame them for that.

Edited November 25, 2023 by Vrubel

[Lila9]

Hamas excecuted yesterday 3 Palestinians in the the West Bank because they suspected these people were spying for Israel.

The excecution is brutal like in the middle ages, a drama show to the mass, the view of the people with their smartphones to document this as if it's some entertainment makes me sick.

Stage red mentality at its finest.

https://m.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-775019

This is why there is no chance for a moderate Palestinian leadership as long as they are under the control of Hamas and terrorists organizations alike, because as soon as there will be a moderate leadership who will be cool with peace with Israel, he would be executed.

Hamas is more than a physical entity, it's a ideology and the majority of the Arab world, including Palestinians, support it.

 

[Nivsch]

14 hours ago, zazen said:

that if the root cause of suffering that is the occupation

This is not the root cause.

The root cause is the unhealthy self tyranni the palestinians have on themselves, like the system is acting against itself and they project it out onto Israel. And what is the root cause of that disorder? maybe their feelings of inferiority on the fact that for centuries they didn't have a nation on their own whereas all the other ethnic groups in the middle east had.

The settlements are a trigger, but Israel does have responsibility to minimize triggers and to respect this system needs to help it to heal.

Edited November 25, 2023 by Nivsch

[Buck Edwards]

18 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

The two hostages released reported being treated very well by Hamas, what makes you say they are in bad conditions? Hamas is not abusing the hostages in order to defend their image.

I can't imagine being kidnapped by a terrorist and being treated well. Seems like a contradiction. 

[lina]

  The Armenian Patriarchate issued a statement calling for help for facing an existential threat in regards to the destruction of their quarter in Jerusalem. 

[jaylimix]

14 hours ago, Vrubel said:

Also, any Palestinian country will be very precarious as the population is deeply stage red and I can predict there will be constant altercations amongst themselves and periodic lashing out at Israel even when independent.  

If you are still stage red as a society in the year 2023 with Internet access, which they do, then there is no hope for these people.

I call for the Xinjiang Counter-Terrorism initiative on these people.

Edited November 25, 2023 by jaylimix

[Jacob Morres]

5 hours ago, jaylimix said:

I call for the Xinjiang Counter-Terrorism initiative on these people.

This what you're advocating for?

> In recent years, the Chinese Communist Party under Xi Jinping Administration's policy has been marked by much harsher policies, including mass surveillance and the incarceration without trial of over one million Uyghurs and other Muslim minority ethnic groups in internment camps... government policies have included forced labor, suppression of Uyghur religious practices, political indoctrination, forced sterilization, forced contraception, and forced abortion

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_conflict#:~:text=In recent years%2C the Chinese,ethnic groups in internment camps.

 

 

Edited November 25, 2023 by Jacob Morres

[Philipp]

Has anyone else seen this interview with roman finkenstein? 

[Hardkill]

Today, Hamas released 17 more hostages, while Israel released 39 Palestinian prisoners.

https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-news-11-25-2023-7d83895eb736c09fab3eada4c31524b0

[Nivsch]

37 minutes ago, Hardkill said:

Today, Hamas released 17 more hostages, while Israel released 39 Palestinian prisoners.

https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-news-11-25-2023-7d83895eb736c09fab3eada4c31524b0

Last night with it's infinite cruelty hamas seperated in purpose between family members contrary to the deal and left a mother as a hostage while her daugther was released.

Also it's not that hamas wants to release anybody in a good gesture, it just doesn't have a choice after being under a military pressure and needed couple of days to re-arm. Thanks to that the deal made possible.

Edited November 26, 2023 by Nivsch

[kenway]

I find it very heart warming, that despite the use of deception and psychological manipulation via the Western media in favor of Israel, the people of the world have still managed to negotiate such a landscape to come out in favor of the Palestinians.

During the Israel-Gaza-Lebanon war of 2006, I remember attending a protest in Europe at the time, and only about 500 people showed up. This was in stark contrast to the millions of people that demonstrated against the Iraq war three years earlier. 

However, fast forward almost twenty years to 2023, and millions of people are out on the streets all over Europe again, standing up against Israel and rightfully declaring that they won't tolerate the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians.

Again, this is despite the propaganda that has been levied at them.

 

[Nivsch]

@kenway That is a very interesting theory but problematic and fulled with flaws.

What I know is that in the early 2000's Israel was MUCH more hated when the world was quite sure those suicide bombers are actually a freedom figthers. I live here, I was a teenager in the 2nd intifada and the vibe we got from the world then was so different for the worse. 

From then, a handful of peace negotiations between Israel an the Emirates, Bahrain, Morroco, Sudan. A normalization with Saudi Arabia when for the first time Israeli commercial airplanes can fly upon their country.

The world today understand better than ever that the palestinians are serial peace refusal and also have a big part of the responsibility for the problem. Let alone the arab world understands this.

The demonstrations are maybe more ebullient these days but this is also more trendy today to be special and fight for your truth. In Israel too the inner demonstrations had expanded quite greatly in their volume over the last decade and a half.

Also don't forget Europe today is fulled by arab refugees what wasn't at all the case in 2006.

Edited November 26, 2023 by Nivsch

[kenway]

@Nivsch

It's not a theory. There has been a demonstrable rise in compassion for the Palestinian cause and a resistance to the demographically-focussed methods of the ultra-Zionist mindset.

We're not talking about national executives or leaders of countries here. Rather the changing attitude of the average person, and their capacity to defend themselves against mainstream narratives. These are the ones who are demonstrating. This is also reflected in polls where the majority, at the very least, have been calling for immediate ceasefire, in an environment where their leaders cannot even utter the phrase.

Plus, resistance does not equal hate. It is a mistake to parallel protesting against an unjust cause with seemingly abstract and uncontextualized hatred, that to be frank, has no basis in logical reality. Again, despite what you may have read, people don't just randomly wake up in the morning and decide to start hating Jews.

[zazen]

@kenway Social media has played a big part in it. The support for Palestinians has a generational gap.
 

From an article

Head of ADL: “But I also wanna point out that we have a major, major, major generational problem,” Greenblatt complains to his cohorts. “All the polling that I’ve seen — ADL’s polling, ICC’s polling, independent polling — suggests this is not a left or right gap, folks. The issue in the United States’ support for Israel is not left and right, it is young and old.”

“We really have a Tik-Tok problem, a Gen-Z problem,”

In reality, what Greenblatt and his associates have is a morality problem. They have a large group of people who have not been indoctrinated into accepting madness and amputating parts of their own conscience over the years, and so are able to look at the mass murder of civilians in Gaza with clear eyes.

Israel’s problem is not that people are being propagandized into hating it, it’s that people are not being successfully propagandized into supporting it.

There’s only so many ways you can spin the murder of thousands of children and the existence of an oppressive ‘security’ apparatus over people.

All the media obfuscation in the world is not enough to pull the wool over fresh eyes that are ready to see.

Edited November 26, 2023 by zazen

[zazen]

6 hours ago, Philipp said:

Has anyone else seen this interview with roman finkenstein? 

Great interview. Here are two very good videos also: