New War In Israel / Gaza

[Lila9]

Hamas leaders luxury life:

 

[hundreth]

7 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

The leaders are much more responsible than some low level poor kid who works for them

if israel doesn’t take out the leaders i can’t take them seriously 

Low level poor kid? Are you aware how command hierarchies work?

The goal is to break Hamas' control of the region. How you do that is by going in and rooting out Hamas from the ground up. Hamas is like a hydra with many heads. You cut one off, another grows back. Israel has eliminated many of their leaders and commanders over the years. This is the necessary step to uproot them completely.

It's not mutually exclusive with eliminating the leadership, it's just doing that alone doesn't solve anything. The Hamas leaders will be taken out too.

Edited November 14, 2023 by hundreth

[zazen]

2 hours ago, Lila9 said:

@zazen What in your opinion Israel should do so the world will be satisfied and stop criticizing it?

 

Like Elon Musk said you can't try to get rid of Hamas in a way that only recruit more people to it ie militarily unless you genocide the whole population - even if they are ethnically displaced into Egypt or wherever, they will only plot their return and revenge from further away.  

If Israel or any countries safety requires the occupation, imprisonment and oppression of a people, you don't have safety and never will. History has shown us this by the dismantling of the colonial powers. If the return of Jews to the land was through immigration that's one thing, but to take the land off people already there is another and is bound to be resisted. The good intentions of Jews and Jewish sympathizers who sought to have them be somewhere safe was hijacked by a colonial nationalist mindset which was present at the time. The cause and sentiment of return and a safe haven is fine, but the strategy and way in which it was and is being done isn't.

Everything that colonial power gains will be inherently violent and must be upheld through violence - that violence will be justified through ideas of superiority and the idea that those you oppress must be more violent and oppressive than you. And when that oppression is resisted and eventually violently resisted, that violence will be used to feed the fear needed to maintain the oppressive structure / apartheid state, a cycle set in motion by the colonizers and which frames the colonized as the undeveloped violent ones that need be tamed in a modern world.

The key thing that needs ending is the occupation, oppression and apartheid state. The solution is either a one secular state that is equal or a two state solution but a proper two state solution which allows Palestinians control of its borders - not a state like in West Bank where Israel control their lives more and more without dignity.

The two state solution carrot has been dangled in front of the Palestinians for years and all this time Israel has been allowing settlements to encroach the land of West Bank - knowing that this will eventually make it almost impossible because you'd have to remove over 500'000 settlers. Ariel Sharon became minister for Agriculture in 1977 and promoted a settlement program for West Bank and Gaza. And now Tony Blair is reportedly being installed as a humanitarian coordinator in Gaza. He is a patron of JNF with Netenyahu which is the largest settlement building organisation.

It's clear that they don't want a two state solution, they want all the land and feel entitled to it. Just take a look at the foundation first prime minister of Israel:

“We must expel Arabs and take their place. Up to now, all our aspirations have been based on an assumption – one that has been vindicated throughout our activities in the country
– that there is enough room in the land for the Arabs and ourselves. But if we are compelled to use force – not in order to dispossess the Arabs of the Negev or Transjordan, but in order to guarantee our right to settle there – our force will enable us to do so.”

- Ben Gurion

Source: https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/2013/04/06/the-ben-gurion-letter/

 

The problem is easier to see, but the solution harder to get to unfortunately. Both sides need new and less radical leadership and both peoples need to transmute their traumas rather than become terrorized by them and perpetuate the cycle of trauma and distrust.

 

Edited November 14, 2023 by zazen

[zazen]

5 minutes ago, hundreth said:

Low level poor kid? Are you aware how command hierarchies work?

The goal is to break Hamas' control of the region. How you do that is by going in and rooting out Hamas from the ground up. Hamas is like a hydra with many heads. You cut one off, another grows back. Israel has eliminated many of their leaders and commanders over the years. This is the necessary step to uproot them completely.

That's the issue, its a grassroots resistance with terrorist factions and tactics being used. With a grassroots movement if you cut the grass more grows because the core cause is not being treated. Unless complete destruction is unleashed and the soil destroyed, but that would mean genocide of innocents. 

That's what Israels periodic operations were called - 'mowing the lawn/grass'. Not total destruction (genocide) but keeping Hamas and any resistance in check every few years or so in a cycle that will never actually end. Different interests benefited from this. Politically always having a enemy to unify the people against and playing the strong savior which Bibi did, militarily industry obviously - they even call Gaza 'the lab' where they would test the latest military tech to sell to the world - a big chunk of Israels economy.

https://www.versobooks.com/en-gb/products/2684-the-palestine-laboratory

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/mow-lawn-israel’s-strategy-perpetual-war-palestinians-185775

[PurpleTree]

12 minutes ago, zazen said:

Like Elon Musk said you can't try to get rid of Hamas in a way that only recruit more people to it ie militarily unless you genocide the whole population - even if they are ethnically displaced into Egypt or wherever, they will only plot their return and revenge from further away.  

If Israel or any countries safety requires the occupation, imprisonment and oppression of a people, you don't have safety and never will. History has shown us this by the dismantling of the colonial powers. If the return of Jews to the land was through immigration that's one thing, but to take the land off people already there is another and is bound to be resisted. The good intentions of Jews and Jewish sympathizers who sought to have them be somewhere safe was hijacked by a colonial nationalist mindset which was present at the time. The cause and sentiment of return and a safe haven is fine, but the strategy and way in which it was and is being done isn't.

Everything that colonial power gains will be inherently violent and must be upheld through violence - that violence will be justified through ideas of superiority and the idea that those you oppress must be more violent and oppressive than you. And when that oppression is resisted and eventually violently resisted, that violence will be used to feed the fear needed to maintain the oppressive structure / apartheid state, a cycle set in motion by the colonizers and which frames the colonized as the undeveloped violent ones that need be tamed in a modern world.

The key thing that needs ending is the occupation, oppression and apartheid state. The solution is either a one secular state that is equal or a two state solution but a proper two state solution which allows Palestinians control of its borders - not a state like in West Bank where Israel control their lives more and more without dignity.

The two state solution carrot has been dangled in front of the Palestinians for years and all this time Israel has been allowing settlements to encroach the land of West Bank - knowing that this will eventually make it almost impossible because you'd have to remove over 500'000 settlers. Ariel Sharon became minister for Agriculture in 1977 and promoted a settlement program for West Bank and Gaza. And now Tony Blair is reportedly being installed as a humanitarian coordinator in Gaza. He is a patron of JNF with Netenyahu which is the largest settlement building organisation.

It's clear that they don't want a two state solution, they want all the land and feel entitled to it. Just take a look at the foundation first prime minister of Israel:

“We must expel Arabs and take their place. Up to now, all our aspirations have been based on an assumption – one that has been vindicated throughout our activities in the country
– that there is enough room in the land for the Arabs and ourselves. But if we are compelled to use force – not in order to dispossess the Arabs of the Negev or Transjordan, but in order to guarantee our right to settle there – our force will enable us to do so.”

- Ben Gurion

Source: https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/2013/04/06/the-ben-gurion-letter/

 

The problem is easier to see, but the solution harder to get to unfortunately. Both sides need new and less radical leadership and both peoples need to transmute their traumas rather than become terrorized by them and perpetuate the cycle of trauma and distrust.

 

Romans, Christians, Muslims, Ottomans everybody „colonized“ Palestine

[lina]

@zazen100% 

11 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

Romans, Christians, Muslims, Ottomans everybody „colonized“ Palestine

colonialism is not the same as settler colonialism. 

[PurpleTree]

it‘s a rather a boring leftie

spiral dynamic stage turd buzzword imo

ColOnialism 😡

boohoo 👻

[hundreth]

47 minutes ago, zazen said:

That's the issue, its a grassroots resistance with terrorist factions and tactics being used. With a grassroots movement if you cut the grass more grows because the core cause is not being treated. Unless complete destruction is unleashed and the soil destroyed, but that would mean genocide of innocents. 

That's what Israels periodic operations were called - 'mowing the lawn/grass'. Not total destruction (genocide) but keeping Hamas and any resistance in check every few years or so in a cycle that will never actually end. Different interests benefited from this. Politically always having a enemy to unify the people against and playing the strong savior which Bibi did, militarily industry obviously - they even call Gaza 'the lab' where they would test the latest military tech to sell to the world - a big chunk of Israels economy.

https://www.versobooks.com/en-gb/products/2684-the-palestine-laboratory

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/mow-lawn-israel’s-strategy-perpetual-war-palestinians-185775

I do agree that you need to address the core cause. I don't agree that removing Hamas requires genocide. It does require a very unfortunate series of painful events. 

In a different post you expressed support for a two state solution. I don't see how you get there with Hamas in control. In one breath we condemn Netanyahu for comments about how Hamas is beneficial for the purposes of keeping Palestinians divided, and in another breath we criticize Israel for removing Hamas. As per your words, the Palestinians require a state with full sovereignty. You simply can't get there with Hamas. Do you disagree?

There are no paths forward without significant pain and turmoil. You can call for a ceasefire now, and then have things continue as they were, with attacks against Israel followed by "mowing the lawn" campaigns, but I don't think anyone wants this. No one else is going to come in and remove Hamas, so Israel has to do it. Of all the negative outcomes and possibilities, this campaign of removing Hamas is the most favorable - with the most promise of change.

I do agree with the need for Israel to exercise extreme care and precision when doing this, and we can argue about whether they're doing a good enough job - but I think the overall cause is justified. 

So what's the next step to get us somewhere? I feel the UN needs to step in and send in a peacekeeping force. The UN played a large role in creating this mess. The Israelis cannot rule Gaza, there's too much bad blood. There's a chance for money and aid to go directly to the Palestinian people and lead to more prosperous lives. The UN needs to be on the ground to ensure this happens without militant groups like Hamas stealing the money.

I believe the greatest contributor to peace are good conditions for the Palestinian people. A proper economy, jobs, a sense of purpose, and trade between Israel and Gazans will slowly heal these wounds. Terrorism breeds in environments where there is nothing to lose. Israel does want peace with it's neighbors - this is evident when you see it's relations with Egypt, Jordan, and what was in progress with the Saudis. This is exactly what Hamas was trying to sabotage, and it was in fact successful. These peaceful bonds with surrounding neighbors are built on trust and mutually beneficial economic relations.

 

[Lila9]

The cruelty of Hamas is limitless....

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cyd6iYiI5TV/?igshid=MTBhNmhmNnd1NDR2OA==

[Lila9]

The 7th October was the second holocaust for Jews.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cyiu5utt1HT/?igshid=MW9xd2I3Zm45N2R2eA==

 

[Lila9]

Stop hating Israel, Israel is not your enemy.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CydVkc2o1k4/?igshid=MWppaTdkbjJnYWd3

[Lila9]

If Israel will put its weapons it will be destroyed.

If Palestinians, Hamas and Hezbollah will put their weapons, there will be peace.

[PurpleTree]

Yoo this is classic

 

 

 

 

 

[PurpleTree]

 

[lina]

....the poor man for a minute seemed to actually trust them. 

[Lila9]

17 minutes ago, lina said:

....the poor man for a minute seemed to actually trust them. 

He was probably killed by Hamas which considered him a traitor for being friendly with an Israeli solider.

 

 

 

[zazen]

@lina That's so sad. I think it serves a purpose to display the extremes on both sides - not to play whataboutism but to open everyone to their own bias's. 

 

 

 

Edited November 14, 2023 by zazen

[Merkabah Star]

23 minutes ago, lina said:

....the poor man for a minute seemed to actually trust them. 

They can kill anyone and if someone says something, they were a Hamas fighter. 

[Merkabah Star]

1 hour ago, PurpleTree said:

 

Vile. 

[BlueOak]

I don't understand intelligent people's obsessions with walls, I was reading mid way through and saw it brought up. They are not that secure, even if they are patrolled regularly, over a large area they are next to useless. You can go over them with a ladder or crane, under them with a shovel, or through them using a vehicle of enough weight.

I understand that politically 'let's build a wall' in America makes people feel good, and gives them something to chant. I am talking to people who are not running on emotion, capable of some deductive reasoning, a wall doesn't stop much unless people with guns are walking along it, or close enough to respond and there is some sort of complicated motion sensor system checking under the earth, over the wall, and the wall itself. A block of concrete is not much, sure its something in the way of rapid transport like trucks or cars for an armed force (provided there isn't just a guy on the other side with a vehicle), but unless there are mines or something else with lethal consequences, it's not much to deter someone on foot or determined to get in.

Edited November 14, 2023 by BlueOak