New War In Israel / Gaza

[Nivsch]

On 10.11.2023 at 1:02 AM, Karmadhi said:

You need to understand that in the eyes of Palestinians, Arabs, Muslims and even most of Western liberals Israel started this by kicking out 750.000 Palestinians and murdering many during the Nakba. EVERYTHING after that is a response to it.

If you steal my house then do not be suprised if I attack you back, I am not provocing you. 

https://www.google.com/search?q=nakba+territory+loss&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUKEwjR4MnbgriCAxU53wIHHffRABkQ2-cCegQIABAA&oq=nakba+territory+loss&gs_lcp=CgNpbWcQAzoHCAAQigUQQzoFCAAQgAQ6BggAEAgQHjoICAAQgAQQsQM6CQgAEAgQHhDHAzoECAAQHjoHCAAQGBCABFCgBljKJmCYJ2gCcAB4AIABUIgBhgiSAQIyM5gBAKABAaoBC2d3cy13aXotaW1nwAEB&sclient=img&ei=i2RNZZHvIbm-i-gP96ODyAE&bih=739&biw=1536&rlz=1C1GCEU_enBE1021BE1021#imgrc=HdcFBp_OeyH9PM

All the territory taken by Israel after 1947 UN creating Israel which the world agreed upon (mostly) is pure theft and people have the right to be angry about it.

You can make the argument that the Jews should have a state there but the territory granted to you by the UN is that of 1947, any territory on top of that is land you stole illegally. Kicking out 750.000 people is proof of that. You do not kick out that many people if the land is actually yours.

 

I understand that part of the world sees the things like that, but in reality, both sides found themselves caught up in a war, and which for what I have read and know, started by the arabs who resisted the UN partition plan.

I am not expecting the muslim world to see the picture in the favor of Israel, but from a minority of the liberal world who falls too much into the simplistic "victim-opressor" childish scheme that is very twisted in this case, to grow above that and for at least take a more balanced and healthy perspective.

Edited November 11, 2023 by Nivsch

[Nivsch]

A brave woman in Gaza speaks her feelings:

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CzcAsbavq4z/?igshid=MWp6ODk4NWpwZzJrZw==

I see those young men in the backround and I really feel I want a future for them, and obviously hamas will prevent from them any chance of good life if will still stay in charge. It must be eliminated.

Edited November 11, 2023 by Nivsch

[Inliytened1]

I think in Israel's defense they are so afraid of annihilation because of what they have endured throughout history.  A show of force will result in a response ten times worse.  It's human nature.  When you have been persecuted for a millennia you tend to be a bit edgy.   Unfortunately who pays the price for human greed and power?  (On both sides)  innocents.  And that is what we are seeing here.  The US has been trying to talk sense into them.  And now we are seeing pauses between attacks.  I'm not sure if this is really going to save any civilians but perhaps it will.  

Edited November 11, 2023 by Inliytened1

[Breakingthewall]

7 hours ago, Merkabah Star said:

France’s Macron urges Israel to stop bombing and killing civilians in Gaza

The French president said he hopes other leaders, including those in Washington, will join him in his call for a ceasefire.

Israel must stop bombing Gaza and killing civilians, French President Emmanuel Macron has told British media.

There was “no justification” for the bombing, Macron told the BBC in an interview published late on Friday, adding that a ceasefire would benefit Israel.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/11/frances-macron-urges-israel-to-stop-bombing-and-killing-civilians-in-gaza

macron is Smart and says that to prevent some fanatic from starting to kill people in France. there the problem is very serious.

Same than Erdogan, who barks a lot to attract the sympathies of Muslims and gain influence. He even threatens Israel with war, the clown. He cares zero about the Palestinians, all strategy 

Everyone knows that Israel has no choice but to do what it does if it wants to assert its survival in a completely hostile environment.

Edited November 11, 2023 by Breakingthewall

[zazen]

4 hours ago, DawnC said:

I agree. But sometimes finding aligned interests, as you suggest, is not really possible. It's difficult to align interests with someone who is deeply, ideologically, and religiously committed to war for some reason. Sometimes, for example, a society's ultimate goal or leadership's focus is to wage a holy war for a piece of land or to secure living space for their race. For a society to be centered on self-prosperity, constructive elements, and building a community, it necessitates reaching a certain level of responsibility and maturity. The type of interests you are referring to cannot always be easily found.

That's the crux of the matter, whats the reason for the war in the first place. There's a difference between ISIS who's reason for war is to establish Islamic Globalism and a group resisting on what was their homeland but using religion to give juice to their cause .

Securing a living space for their race is what Hitler was going for, and what hard line Zionism orients around - ethnocentric racial superiority - but this time they have religious sentiments such as being the chosen people to fuel it further whilst living in a time where the standards of what is right and wrong have changed ie colonial expansion and expulsion being bad. So they play the long game and this can only occur strategically and slowly enough to go under the radar of the international community.

You mentioned in a earlier post, the idea of Palestinians or other Arabs probably being better managed under Israeli or Western leadership because they are unable to govern themselves. If I heard that anywhere else Id mistake that for being a colonial apologist - the belief that people have to earn their liberation by submitting to oppression, to prove that they will be responsible with their liberation because they are less developed. By that logic lets bend over to the Japanese at how orderly and respectfully they seem to live. Allow a people their own growth or whatever is imposed will be disposed by retaliation, rebellion and resistance.

If Israel or any countries safety requires the occupation, imprisonment and oppression of a people, you don't have safety and never will. History has shown us this by the dismantling of the colonial powers. Everything that colonial power will have will be inherently violent and must be upheld through violence - that violence will be justified through ideas of superiority and the idea that those you oppress must be more violent and oppressive than you. And when that oppression is resisted as it always has been, that violence will be used to feed the fear of safety needed to maintain that cycle, a cycle set in motion by the colonizers first and which frames the colonized as the undeveloped violent ones that need be tamed in a modern world.

Having developed capabilities doesn't automatically mean a having developed character or consciousness. There are tribes with little technological or political development yet they have pure hearts and will share their food and homes with you, despite lacking material abundance. 

Edited November 11, 2023 by zazen

[gettoefl]

the only peace in the world is the absence of hostilities namely how we all live no matter where ... this requires either secure borders or a trusted 3rd party to patrol borders

meanwhile peace is the opposite of anger and is an inside job

that is you bring peace, you cannot seek peace ... seeking peace is licking your wounds in capitulation saying we lost

sad world huh but that's ok because i long since forgave and overcome the world

[Inliytened1]

2 hours ago, zazen said:

 

Securing a living space for their race is what Hitler was going for,

Securing a living space was not what Hitler was looking for.  Hitler was a sick individual bent on global domination.   He desired to annihilate all other races but his own and to establish complete sovereignty.  This is selfishness at its absolute core and why he ended up committing suicide as the world closed in on him - as reality closed in on him..

And no one is playing the chosen people card.  They might be a people scorned from ages of persecution- and they react like a woman scorned.  But know this - what we are talking about is survival.   Survival for Israel is retaining their land and destroying their oppressors.   Unfortunately - along the way the have lost their humanity- but this was because their humanity was stolen from them first over hundreds of years of persecution.   

Edited November 11, 2023 by Inliytened1

[Buck Edwards]

On 11/8/2023 at 3:21 PM, Leo Gura said:

In a true genocide Israel would intentionally target civilians.

Aren't they doing that already? 

[DawnC]

6 minutes ago, zazen said:

That's the crux of the matter, whats the reason for the war in the first place. There's a difference between ISIS who's reason for war is to establish Islamic Globalism and a group resisting on what was their homeland but using religion to give juice to their cause . 

That's where our disagreement lies. I believe the Palestinian resistance presents itself as solely fighting against occupation, but upon deeper examination of their society and history, it becomes evident that their struggle extends beyond that. They are deeply fixated on their concept of historical justice, an unachievable goal in any realistic terms, intertwined with a profound religious belief. That being the case, the fact that we sympathize with their original cause for self-determination doesn't significantly alter the situation. Self-determination won't cut it. It's not a state next to Israel they are after. And the possibility of working towards mutual prosperity is hindered by their lack of responsibility and a tendency to opt for instant gratification through violence without considering the consequences (7/10). Israelis attempted to do that with Hamas over the last 2 years, and it literally backfired.

Let me ask you this—realistically, what would happen if Israel were to withdraw now to the 1967 borders, or even to the original partition plan borders? Would the Palestinian resistance groups abandon their cause? 

10 minutes ago, zazen said:

You mentioned in a earlier post, the idea of Palestinians or other Arabs probably being better managed under Israeli or Western leadership because they are unable to govern themselves. If I heard that anywhere else Id mistake that for being a colonial apologist - the belief that people have to earn their liberation by submitting to oppression, to prove that they will be responsible with their liberation because they are less developed. By that logic lets bend over to the Japanese at how orderly and respectfully they seem to live. Allow a people their own growth or whatever is imposed will be disposed by retaliation, rebellion and resistance.

If Israel or any countries safety requires the occupation, imprisonment and oppression of a people, you don't have safety and never will. History has shown us this by the dismantling of the colonial powers. Everything that colonial power will have will be inherently violent and must be upheld through violence - that violence will be justified through ideas of superiority and the idea that those you oppress must be more violent and oppressive than you. And when that oppression is resisted as it always has been, that violence will be used to feed the fear of safety needed to maintain that cycle, a cycle set in motion by the colonizers first and which frames the colonized as the undeveloped violent ones that need be tamed in a modern world.

The situation is vastly different, and this analogy fails to address a major obstacle. The Israelis are not outsiders imposing rule from a country that has nothing to do with the local area. Israel is a country that exists in this land, whether you and I consider their initial movement legitimate or not. It is not a colony. By protecting their country, they are ensuring their survival, not pursuing colonial expansion desires. The phenomenon you have mentioned is negligible in Israeli society. Any realistic and serious study of Israeli society would suggest that the society is mostly peace-oriented, with no actual desire to rule over anyone, especially not with racial superiority intentions.

[Breakingthewall]

32 minutes ago, zazen said:

That's the crux of the matter, whats the reason for the war in the first place. There's a difference between ISIS who's reason for war is to establish Islamic Globalism and a group resisting on what was their homeland but using religion to give juice to their cause .

I would say that the main reason for the war is that the Arabs want, unambiguously, to expel the Jews from Israel, and the disappearance of Israel as a state. This is impossible, but it is the firm will of the majority of them. This started in 1948 and has continued to increase until now.

Israelis must live with a nation that hates them to death, without hesitation. We can say that they have reasons because it was their land, whatever, the reality is hatred. This hate breeds hate, and Israelis hate Palestinians too. If the Palestinians stopped hating, Israel would stop hating, but if Israel stopped hating, Palestine would continue hating.

This hatred feeds the settlers, who are true terrorists protected by the state, but Israel thinks: what does it matter that they hate us for expanding, if they are going to hate us anyway? So let's get the land.

The solution is for the Palestinians to evolve towards a way of being that looks to the future, but that is not going to happen, so if I were Israeli, my solution would be: zero coexistence with Palestine. Entire West Bank for them and the borders closed. gaza empty of arabs. ugly? yes well, that's life

[Inliytened1]

8 minutes ago, DawnC said:

That's where our disagreement lies. I believe the Palestinian resistance presents itself as solely fighting against occupation, but upon deeper examination of their society and history, it becomes evident that their struggle extends beyond that. They are deeply fixated on their concept of historical justice, an unachievable goal in any realistic terms, intertwined with a profound religious belief. That being the case, the fact that we sympathize with their original cause for self-determination doesn't significantly alter the situation. Self-determination won't cut it. It's not a state next to Israel they are after. And the possibility of working towards mutual prosperity is hindered by their lack of responsibility and a tendency to opt for instant gratification through violence without considering the consequences (7/10). Israelis attempted to do that with Hamas over the last 2 years, and it literally backfired.

Let me ask you this—realistically, what would happen if Israel were to withdraw now to the 1967 borders, or even to the original partition plan borders? Would the Palestinian resistance groups abandon their cause? 

The situation is vastly different, and this analogy fails to address a major obstacle. The Israelis are not outsiders imposing rule from a country that has nothing to do with the local area. Israel is a country that exists in this land, whether you and I consider their initial movement legitimate or not. It is not a colony. By protecting their country, they are ensuring their survival, not pursuing colonial expansion desires. The phenomenon you have mentioned is negligible in Israeli society. Any realistic and serious study of Israeli society would suggest that the society is mostly peace-oriented, with no actual desire to rule over anyone, especially not with racial superiority intentions.

Precisely.   If only there were enough room for both - perhaps they could coexist.   But the reality is what it is.  And now, who suffers are the innocent children and families dwelling within Gaza.  But the same blood was spilled within Israel as a result of the Hamas assaults.  Blood was spilled.   

Edited November 11, 2023 by Inliytened1

[Twentyfirst]

It takes 180 pages of a thread for Israeli supporters to say "you know what maybe we should have picked land that was already empty"

[hundreth]

5 minutes ago, Twentyfirst said:

It takes 180 pages of a thread for Israeli supporters to say "you know what maybe we should have picked land that was already empty"

Believe it or not, that's what Zionists mostly did. They bought up unused swamp lands. That's also what the majority of the land they were given by the UN was. Existing Jewish communities and infertile desert / swamp lands.

Once war erupted, the circumstances changed.

Edited November 11, 2023 by hundreth

[Inliytened1]

6 minutes ago, Twentyfirst said:

It takes 180 pages of a thread for Israeli supporters to say "you know what maybe we should have picked land that was already empty"

There is no such thing as empty land.  There's not enough room.

[Twentyfirst]

49 minutes ago, hundreth said:

Believe it or not, that's what Zionists mostly did. They bought up unused swamp lands. That's also what the majority of the land they were given by the UN was. Existing Jewish communities and infertile desert / swamp lands.

Once war erupted, the circumstances changed.

Believe it I don't

I know face to face stories from real life actual people that were there 

Even if it was man...theres unused places in the USA. Go try and establish your own country. You can be king

[Twentyfirst]

55 minutes ago, hundreth said:

Believe it or not, that's what Zionists mostly did. They bought up unused swamp lands. That's also what the majority of the land they were given by the UN was. Existing Jewish communities and infertile desert / swamp lands.

Once war erupted, the circumstances changed.

Land can't be given to you by the UN because it's not theirs to give. So if a kid has 5 strawberries then it belongs to him. You can't have even 1 strawberry okay Timmy? Ok good Timmy 

[Inliytened1]

10 minutes ago, Twentyfirst said:

Land can't be given to you by the UN because it's not theirs to give. So if a kid has 5 strawberries then it belongs to him. You can't have even 1 strawberry okay Timmy? Ok good Timmy 

Only if you take his strawberries by force.  Timmy gonna go apeshit on your butt.

[Breakingthewall]

38 minutes ago, Twentyfirst said:

Land can't be given to you by the UN because it's not theirs to give. So if a kid has 5 strawberries then it belongs to him. You can't have even 1 strawberry okay Timmy? Ok good Timmy 

Then Jonny is going to cry for the strawberry for 100 years, feeding hate and sending his son's to immolate himself and live completely obsessed with the strawberrie forever, knowing that the strawberry is already eaten

Edited November 11, 2023 by Breakingthewall

[Twentyfirst]

1 hour ago, Breakingthewall said:

Then Jonny is going to cry for the strawberry for 100 years, feeding hate and sending his son's to immolate himself and live completely obsessed with the strawberrie forever, knowing that the strawberry is already eaten

Who is deeper in self delusion though? Timmy or Jonny?

[Buck Edwards]