New War In Israel / Gaza

[Bobby_2021]

9 hours ago, Raze said:

You have said this before and have provided NO evidence this is true. All independent analysis has found “no tolerance approaches” like war and blockades increase terrorism. The war on terror increased terrorism. Israel’s occupation of the West Bank and bombing of Gaza lead to oct 7. 

That's what happens when you half ass your war on terror. And war on terror was based on a lie that they have weapons of mass destruction. And it was a proxy invasion. Invasions never worked and will never work.

That's different from what Israel is doing. A targeted attack against real terrorists and destroying their infrastructure.

9 hours ago, Raze said:

We do have a recent historical example of ending a large amount of terror attacks with how the British stopped the IRA. Their own analysis was that it only stopped when the grievances of the insurgency were addressed politically as opposed to violently.

There is no way you can make deals with terrorists. Their end goal is to end the state of Israel.

Israel Gaza situation is a special one with loads of complexities that I would be more hesitant to make blanket parallels with other historical events. 

[Merkabah Star]

 

[Raze]

On 3/10/2024 at 2:44 PM, Nivsch said:

This is a low intensity war against hamas in the west bank since 2002 until this day, the only thing that stopped the suicide bombers came from there.

No massacares at all. You conflated civilians with hamas.

1. The suicide bombings began after the first intifada, they were a response to Israeli occupation and violence. H

2. hamas haven’t claimed responsibility for a suicide bombing since 2008

The Israel military has engaged in many massacres of civilians long before Hamas was even founded.

[Raze]

19 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said:

That's what happens when you half ass your war on terror. And war on terror was based on a lie that they have weapons of mass destruction. And it was a proxy invasion. Invasions never worked and will never work.

That's different from what Israel is doing. A targeted attack against real terrorists and destroying their infrastructure.

There is no way you can make deals with terrorists. Their end goal is to end the state of Israel.

Israel Gaza situation is a special one with loads of complexities that I would be more hesitant to make blanket parallels with other historical events. 

1. It wasn’t “half assed”. The US and other countries spent literally trillions of dollars and tens of thousands of lives. Their attacks were so vicious as to kill millions. What more could possibly be done military wise if that was not enough?

2. Israel is not doing a targeted attack, they are engaging in wide scale ethnic cleansing. IDF officials already admitted the bombing was focused on causing damage, and they are using mostly unguided bombs and even 2000 pound bombs (the USA used at largest 500 lb bombs in Afghanistan which had much less civilian population density). They are also tearing down farm land and bombing universities to damage the culture.

3. Hamas already removed calls for Israel’s destruction from their charter. The PLO gave up violence and trying to end Israel decades ago, yet rather than make a deal with them Israel allows settlers to take their land and kill civilians by the hundred. Why should Hamas make a deal with Israel if that’s how they treat the PLO are treated?

4. We can make parallels to historical events within Israel and Palestine themselves. And what we see is a consistent pattern of violence creating more violence. So there is no indication this war will lead to peace. The biggest difference now is that Israel is putting its own existence at risk as its neighboring countries become more hostile towards it and foreign country populations want to support it less and less.

Edited March 11 by Raze

[Nivsch]

3 hours ago, Raze said:

1. The suicide bombings began after the first intifada, they were a response to Israeli occupation and violence. H

2. hamas haven’t claimed responsibility for a suicide bombing since 2008

The Israel military has engaged in many massacres of civilians long before Hamas was even founded.

1. The suicide as a method started then but the explosions (without suicide) attacks of Palestinians against Israeli civilians started long before that.

2. hamas and fatah are both responsible since 90s. 

3. You will have to add examples of such intentional "massacares" of civilians (not terrorists).

[Nivsch]

@Raze

2. If your family and friends were hostages in a nearby country which its citizens allowed it to become a terror base, you would also, likely, do maximum material damage that would put the best pressure as possible to release them and you easily would have no sympathy in this heated moments to those citizens property.

3. An extreme minority of fanatic French people attacked German people, what causes Nazi Germany ideology to be created (an analogy) but not before they declared they want compromises (what they really said) and don't want war

4. Sometimes war is necessary, like the current example.

Edited March 12 by Nivsch

[Bobby_2021]

9 hours ago, Raze said:

1. It wasn’t “half assed”. The US and other countries spent literally trillions of dollars and tens of thousands of lives. Their attacks were so vicious as to kill millions. What more could possibly be done military wise if that was not enough?

What was even the objective of war on terror? There wasn't even an objective. Yes they did wreck the middle East and toppled stable governments. But they didn't have a tangible goal to get done. 

Throwing money and equipment doesn't mean that it isn't half asses. In fact hoping to get something out of it by throwing money at the problem is what I mean by half assing the war.

Invading another country overseas was bound to fail from the beginning. Even Afganistan bought them to their knees. So there isn't anything new here. 

That is not what Israel is doing. 

Israel is not invading an overseas country. What Israel is doing is destroying the terrorist infrastructure. That is the tunnel system that they built over the years with foreign aid money. Qatar and Iran also contributed to building this terrorists infrastructure.

America was looking for weapons of mass destruction. Israel is looking for tunnels. WMDs didn't exist anyway and they didn't even have the slightest proof it did. But tunnels do exist and it's being destroyed. 

10 hours ago, Raze said:

Israel is not doing a targeted attack, they are engaging in wide scale ethnic cleansing. IDF officials already admitted the bombing was focused on causing damage, and they are using mostly unguided bombs and even 2000 pound bombs (the USA used at largest 500 lb bombs in Afghanistan which had much less civilian population density). They are also tearing down farm land and bombing universities to damage the culture.

It's a bloody war. It won't be nice.

But their fundamental goal is to destroy their tunnels. Sometimes they go over and beyond. I don't agree with it. But it's war. It's kind of expected to happen. 

But largely they are targeting the terrorist infrastructure.

You have to wonder that if terrorists were using hospitals to store as weapons and missiles, that would also count as terrorist infrastructure. 

10 hours ago, Raze said:

Hamas already removed calls for Israel’s destruction from their charter. The PLO gave up violence and trying to end Israel decades ago, yet rather than make a deal with them Israel allows settlers to take their land and kill civilians by the hundred. Why should Hamas make a deal with Israel if that’s how they treat the PLO are treated?

I highly doubt this. But I am willing to give you the benefit of doubt.

If hamas were up for a peaceful deal, Israel should have taken it. But I doubt if there were even a deal, and if there were such a deal, how sincere would they be while making one.

Hamas is a terrorist groups that has a mind and ideology on its own. It's not open to making deals and top down decision making like high trust democracies.

For example many hamas leaders didn't even know that the sinwar leader was even planning an oct 7 attack. Basically one leader can choose to act on his whims and go rape and torture Israelis and the rest of the hamas leader has to go with it.

So making deals with such savages are dangerous. 

10 hours ago, Raze said:

We can make parallels to historical events within Israel and Palestine themselves. And what we see is a consistent pattern of violence creating more violence. So there is no indication this war will lead to peace. The biggest difference now is that Israel is putting its own existence at risk as its neighboring countries become more hostile towards it and foreign country populations want to support it less and less.

Definitely. Violence will lead to more violence. That's the lesson that hamas should learn. Their violence left gaza in this mess.

The existence of Israel is not at all at risk. Just because some media people cry hard about Palestine ain't going do anything. Those people on the roads or blue haired college kids are not decisions makers. 

The US deep state know what's it's doing. They are the ones making decisions. Those decisions are independent of what party is ruling.

Also Israel only has to worry about terrorism belt. Iran & Russia. Other neighbouring countries may not have good reasons to bond with Israel. But they wouldn't dare to go to war with them.

They know what going under the hood. 

[lina]

 

"All our choices were made to reflect and confront us in the present, not to say look what they did then, rather what we do now.

"Our film shows where dehumanization leads at its worst. It's shaped all of our past and present."

The movie's plot: Auschwitz commandant Rudolf Höss and his wife Hedwig strive to build a dream life for their family in a house and garden beside the camp... Sounds familiar? 

[zazen]

4 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said:

The existence of Israel is not at all at risk.

Exactly. Whats all this destruction for then - are they playing whack a mole with the tunnel holes?  Israel aren't invading a foreign country because they already occupied (past tense) another territory where people existed - yet if this past context is missed then everything points to October 7th as the start date of the current conflict.

Even if these terrorists didn't have the context of resistance as a cause for their atrocity, does it justify collective punishment? If the unholy trifecta of Satanyahu, Ben Gvir and Smotrich dictate policies that cause Palestinians harm, deny them their right to self determination (two state), or orchestrate a attack - does that give Hamas or Palestinians the right to mow through the entire Israeli population and starve them in order to get to the culprits?

Imagine then if Lebanon, Jordan and Syria blockade and don’t let any Israelis flee for their safety. They are now held captive on land where Hamas would demolish all their buildings and homes and drop dumb bombs on them in order to 'target' the evil Israeli leadership. Would this be justified? Would we expect the world to stop this massacre of the Israelis and to boycott and pressure Hamas? Would we question the millions across the world protesting this and call them dumb or Islamophobic for doing so when thats all they are able to do with the power they hold in the face of a ongoing massacre that the worlds top court has ruled as a plausible genocide?

As for the hostages the Israeli leadership really care about - they rain down 2000lb dumb bombs onto a tiny strip of land where those very hostages are held. Could it be that the hostages are a smokescreen for the vested interests ulterior motives just as weapons of mass destruction were? Can these ulterior motives easily be known through the blatant language and self confession by the political class?  Even the US are questioning and critiquing Israel now and admit to the death toll and use of dumb bombs.

We can ask why tunnels exist in the first place. Further ask - does destroying infrastructure destroy the idea and cause of those who built it. What is there cause? If Israel aren't able to or are a hinderance to that cause (Palestinian self determination) will that cause ever die or will it exist until those people who seek liberation are cleansed from the land or subjugated under a occupational 'security' apparatus similar to what exists in the West Bank? Can you solve political problems with military solutions?

Edited March 12 by zazen

[Bobby_2021]

3 hours ago, zazen said:

Exactly. Whats all this destruction for then - are they playing whack a mole with the tunnel holes?

The existence of Israel is not at risk. But their security is. No self respecting nation would sit and watch when a bunch of terrorists from a nearby state rapes and takes their citizens as hostage.

No citizen of any country should live in fear of these savages. 

Such terrorists groups should be nullified. 

Edited March 12 by Bobby_2021

[Bobby_2021]

3 hours ago, zazen said:

We can ask why tunnels exist in the first place

Because of funding from Qatar, Iran, UN and possibly Russia. Destroy their infrastructure and they wouldn't be nearly as effective. 

Israel might have also funded tunnels in form of humanitarian aid hijacked by terrorist groups.

Hamas is single-handedly to blame for everything happening in Gaza right now. 

[Bobby_2021]

I have one question to all pro Palestinians.

Where was all the outcry when Saudi bombed the living fuck out of Yemen? 

They were bombing them for years and years on end and there was no outcry apart from new reporting here and there. It's been 8 years and still going on right now. 

Are Yemenese lives less valuable than Palestinian lives?

Population of Gaza is only 500k while the population of yemen is 32 million. 

What's the logic here? 

Edited March 12 by Bobby_2021

[_Archangel_]

@Bobby_2021 The logic is that usually Pro Pal. are pro Yemen aswell.
The difference is that Palestine  is a more heated topic in the West cause of the Israel support crushing with the support for Palestinians.
Everyone hate Saudi Arabia. Easy.

[ArcticGong]

1 hour ago, Bobby_2021 said:

 

Population of Gaza is only 500k while the population of yemen is 32 million. 

 

Check your stats. 

 

1 hour ago, Bobby_2021 said:

 

Hamas is single-handedly to blame for everything happening in Gaza right now. 

It is a bit more nuanced.

 

[Bobby_2021]

1 hour ago, _Archangel_ said:

@Bobby_2021 The logic is that usually Pro Pal. are pro Yemen aswell.
The difference is that Palestine  is a more heated topic in the West cause of the Israel support crushing with the support for Palestinians.
Everyone hate Saudi Arabia. Easy.

What are you even saying. Where were all these "pro pal" people declaring their support for Yemen?  Why were they not vocal about the bombing which were far worse than gaze situation.

Israel is not the most loved nation in the world. What is even your point? Even if you hate them, does that mean the bombings would be less effective? What is the logic? After all it's a human right issue. 

1 hour ago, ArcticGong said:

Check your stats.

Did it before posting.

1 hour ago, ArcticGong said:

It is a bit more nuanced.

Yeah sure. Hamas terrorists are to be blamed, but in a more nuanced way.

[Vrubel]

2 hours ago, _Archangel_ said:

@Bobby_2021 The logic is that usually Pro Pal. are pro Yemen aswell.
The difference is that Palestine  is a more heated topic in the West cause of the Israel support crushing with the support for Palestinians.
Everyone hate Saudi Arabia. Easy.

The topic is more heated because there are Jews involved. It's hard to explain but there is something about Jews that makes them "satisfying" to target for certain people who really get carried away in their political narrative whether extreme rightwing or leftwing. I guess it's because Jews tend to be successful and overrepresented in key fields but still have certain weak points or vulnerabilities that people can rip into and run with it like there is no tomorrow. Even if many extreme left people say they "hate Israel but not Jews", the principle is the same. Hate is hate and there is nothing wise or compassionate about their obsessiveness and demonization of Israel, it's the very opposite of that. How convenient to only "love" Jews if they are weak, defenseless and irrelevant. 

2 hours ago, _Archangel_ said:

Everyone hate Saudi Arabia. Easy.

Western people go way overboard with criticizing Saudi given that it is relatively advanced for an Arab country (how about criticizing the slave markets in Libya or the actual ongoing genocide in Darfur). Also crucially Saudi does not seek destabilization in the region. That would be the Iranian government. 
 

Edited March 12 by Vrubel

[Merkabah Star]

@Bobby_2021 that’s the population for Gaza city. 😀 you clearly aren’t Israeli as that’s a rookie mistake. 

[_Archangel_]

2 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said:

What are you even saying.

@Bobby_2021 Just explained to you. The Israel-Palestine debate is more wide-spread in the west because the media and the public is divided.
Division create discussion. Put in the mix Antisemitism and Islamophobia and you have a bomb. We are so invested in it because, in a sense, this conflict talks about Us, westerners, and our internal political and social conflics.
If you dig, you're going to find many condamnations of Saudi Arabia, but it just doesn't add up because public opinion generally agrees they're bad.

2 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said:

Israel is not the most loved nation in the world.

Never said nor implied. Nevertheless, i think it was to be expected judging how they've been handling the sitation down there through the years.

----------

@Vrubel
Antismitism is surely a thing in the west and not only. Urban myths and strange theories have contributed to the discrimination of Jews and Israel over the years for sure. 
But you also have to consider that poeple might be mad at Israel because they don't find it right to bomb houses and hospitals just because potential terrosist might be down in some tunnel. 
Jew have been often ostracized and hated but this shouldn't morph into a the victim card that you play whenever you are accused of something.

2 hours ago, Vrubel said:

Western people go way overboard with criticizing Saudi given that it is relatively advanced for an Arab country (how about criticizing the slave markets in Libya or the actual ongoing genocide in Darfur). Also crucially Saudi does not seek destabilization in the region. That would be the Iranian government. 

I've always witnessed plenty of critiques regarding these topics. That the Saudis do not seek destabilization si arguable.
Every time you participate, even indirecticly, to a war you are destabilizing the area.

 

[Merkabah Star]

 

[Danioover9000]

@Merkabah Star

16 minutes ago, Merkabah Star said:

 

   IMO simple take: If you're not here to be lectured and lecture back, or are not willing to argue fiercely for you side, GTFO! Sounding like all them other propagandists just wanna propagandize, and not be willing to actually argue solidly.

   And the hubris of this guy! Demanding Egypt to open it's borders for displaced Gazans, KNOWING the political situation for Egypt's ruler not willing to take in more Muslim Gazans to upset his rulership in that area as he's also worried about Islam extremists in his own country. How about sort yourselves out and be less demanding of other countries sorting them mess you created yourselves!   

Edited March 12 by Danioover9000