Posted March 6 (edited) Theirs a difference between denying atrocity and debunking amplified stories about atrocities which have been used for propaganda - to propagate and justify further atrocities. Nothing wrong in questioning distortions or exposing propaganda, especially with sources. Denying that any atrocities took place only delegitimises the person in denial of them - but people aren’t denying October 7th was atrocious, just the stories that have plot holes in them or lack evidence. Regarding the flour massacre “The IDF claims Israeli troops only began firing on the Palestinians because the soldiers “felt threatened” by them, which goes to show that there is no atrocity Israel could possibly commit where it wouldn’t frame itself as the victim - for they are the eternal victims.” At least a lot of Western media and institutions don’t deny atrocities taking place in Gaza due to the visible evidence - they just leave out the perpetrator committing them. All the Western elites say they are ‘concerned’ about this ongoing crisis yet do nothing to stop it. Biden has ‘angry calls’ and apparently name calls Netenyahu yet does nothing about it. Optics for election year? or is it that true power to affect change lies elsewhere. Either way, the US can’t claim to be for peace and concerned about loss of life or call for ceasefire then veto it 4 times in 5 months at UN like a pariah state and a liability to world peace and harmony. The US tells Israel to ‘be careful’ in how they commit a plausible genocide whilst their military industrial complex loads the gun for them. Like a bad parent giving their unhinged child a bottle of wine and saying don’t do too much now little Timmy. Edited March 6 by zazen Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 6 (edited) 9 hours ago, Vrubel said: @Nivsch I have reported @Raze Don't engage him. He knows what he is doing. We have standards. I really don't understand the tactic of focusing on the borderline/problematic 5%+ and doing such efforts days and nights to make the other side to look as monsterous as possible. This is a cold calculated stragety the pro palestinian side is champion in. This is so toxic, just in analogy to how the bully child in school make everyone else to laugh at the shy quiet kid. I could also use this tactic on Canada and people here will be sure at the end of the day that Canada is the darkest place on earth with the worst people. But I won't. I don't believe in this evil way. Edited March 6 by Nivsch 🌻 Thinking independently about the spiral stages themselves is important for going through them in an organic, efficient way. If you stick to an external idea about how a stage should be you lose touch with its real self customized process trying to happen inside you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 6 @Nivsch It is hard when people call out your country and you live there and see it all a totally different way. And I dont think anyone here is really denying the horrendous attack on Israel. Is it justified to massacre over 30,000 people because of it? No. Israel could have reacted in a highly conscious way and showed true compassion and create real and lasting peace. Instead it has acted as horrific as Hamas. There really is no difference to your country and Hamas. The apparent pro Palestinian posters on this thread are trying to show you, you are the same as Hamas. So it’s hurtful to your emotional state to hear it. It’s labeled toxic. When it’s not. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 6 (edited) @Merkabah Star 5 minutes ago you denied that hamas hides behind civilians and use them as a shield and dismissed it as a "cool story". Then of course that Israel and hamas will seem to you as equal, when you design the reality however you want. Edited March 6 by Nivsch 🌻 Thinking independently about the spiral stages themselves is important for going through them in an organic, efficient way. If you stick to an external idea about how a stage should be you lose touch with its real self customized process trying to happen inside you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 6 3 hours ago, zazen said: Nothing wrong in questioning distortions or exposing propaganda, especially with sources. Denying that any atrocities took place only delegitimises the person in denial of them - but people aren’t denying October 7th was atrocious, just the stories that have plot holes in them or lack evidence. This is not what's happening. If you would really care to know the truth you would not be engaged in playing such sneaky agenda-driven games. Even if some false individual claims arose and were later proven false this does not diminish the absolute animalistic savagery and sadistic barbarity of the attack. The truth is already so starkly horrific enough you're not serving the truth by playing this game of finding some false claims and running with it like Forest Gump. You're only serving your narrative by mushing every bit of information through your own specific frame. Believe me Israelis, even children know what the truth of 7/10 is. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 6 1 hour ago, Nivsch said: @Merkabah Star 5 minutes ago you denied that hamas hides behind civilians and use them as a shield and dismissed it as a "cool story". Then of course that Israel and hamas will seem to you as equal, when you design the reality however you want. The hiding behind civilians story has worn thin on the world stage. Sorry you still believe it. I guess you need to justify the endless murdering of children otherwise you wouldn’t sleep at night. Now your country is starving babies to death. There really is no difference between them. Same same, not different. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 6 @Vrubel 10 hours ago, Vrubel said: For anyone wondering the reporting was for atrocity denial. It’s a dirty and highly dishonest agenda-driven game. But also unfortunately nothing surprising understanding the mentality of these people. If you would really care about truth and “sourcing” you’d watch the public videos and photos or at least inform yourself of the existing material including footage that is so traumatizing it’s only shown to officials and journalists. You can read their notes. But really the public stuff is already bad enough. It's also totally in your right to not do any of those things but then just shut up, you have no right to do your downplaying, revisionism and denial. I do care about truth and sourcing, so what posts did @Raze do that contained atrocity denial? And is it even in the forum guidelines? Right? Like freedom of speech, individualism, democracy? You think those extend to Actualized.org forum policy? And what right do you have to tell me what rights to exercise here in this forum? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 6 (edited) @Danioover9000 I already explained the sneaky game being played in the last post. Now you're just being willfully ignorant. Anybody can do whatever they want if they don't care about upholding standards. Like seriously guys show some capacity for intelligence and multi-layered thinking. A sign of a stupid person is when they have one pre-made narrative and squeeze every bit of information through that frame. I found a cool video to get the look and feel of Gaza before the war. Surprisingly normal, A bit rough but not without its charm. Not a single date palm would have as much as a scratch on its bark if Hamas never did their attack. They are also with the power to end it all and bring relief to their population. Gaza's biggest issue was unemployment and Israel was ready to help them with that by negotiating many 10,000’s of permits for jobs with a very decent pay and where they would have been treated with friendship and respect. But Hamas used this permit negotiation as a ploy to lull the Israelis. Edited March 6 by Vrubel Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 6 @Merkabah Star 4 hours ago, Merkabah Star said: I don't even know why IDF would shoot into the crowds, they could've just shot in mid air and gave warning shots or made a more secure area to distribute the food, yet they sent the trucks, allowed the starving Palestinians to swarm their trucks...to then shot at them??? I'd definitely be charging the soldiers who were shooting into the crowds. So unnecessary to do. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 6 @Vrubel 4 hours ago, Vrubel said: @Danioover9000 I already explained the sneaky game being played in the last post. Now you're just being willfully ignorant. Anybody can do whatever they want if they don't care about upholding standards. Like seriously guys show some capacity for intelligence and multi-layered thinking. A sign of a stupid person is when they have one pre-made narrative and squeeze every bit of information through that frame. I found a cool video to get the look and feel of Gaza before the war. Surprisingly normal, A bit rough but not without its charm. Not a single date palm would have as much of a scratch on its bark if Hamas never did their attack. They are also with the power to end it all and bring relief to their population. Gaza's biggest issue was unemployment and Israel was ready to help them with that by negotiating many 10,000’s of permits for jobs with a very decent pay and where they would have been treated with friendship and respect. But Hamas used this permit negotiation as a ploy to lull the Israelis. Cool, so coming back to this specific issue of you reporting @Raze...which posts did you report that proves he was doing this 'denial' or spreading a conspiracy theory? I mean IMO absence of evidence = evidence of absence, which basically means you reported for nothing...unless you have proof? Not denying what HAMMAs did isn't terrible, I do condemn their actions as much as I condemn the IDF for open firing into starving dying Palestinians. Remember in a conflict it takes 2 to tango, so both sides share some guilt and blame of making this conflict much worse. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 6 (edited) @Merkabah Star For me to deny the human shield issue as number one strategy and effort of hamas is similar to deny oct 7th. You are free to think whatever you want, anyway. Edited March 6 by Nivsch 🌻 Thinking independently about the spiral stages themselves is important for going through them in an organic, efficient way. If you stick to an external idea about how a stage should be you lose touch with its real self customized process trying to happen inside you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 6 (edited) 11 hours ago, Nivsch said: I really don't understand the tactic of focusing on the borderline/problematic 5%+ and doing such efforts days and nights to make the other side to look as monsterous as possible. It's not out of spite, it's an attempt to raise awareness regarding what's happening and stop it or at least decrease its severity. We're privileged to live in a time that has independent media that can scrutinize dangerous propaganda that has repeatedly been guilty of starting endless wars. Furthermore, what's shared here is only a small fraction of the graphic in-ground media a lot of people have been exposed to on a daily basis for the past 5 months. We all know not all Israelis support blocking aid and not all IDF soldiers commit war crimes, the problem with that 5% you mentioned is that it signals a systematic problem in the Israeli gov because it continues to allow it. That 5% in a month will turn into 50% and become the standard if it's not stopped; instead, it's praised by gov officials like Ben Gvir's comment and his support for the Flour Massacre. 7 hours ago, Vrubel said: A sign of a stupid person is when they have one pre-made narrative and squeeze every bit of information through that frame. Narratives change because of introduction of new information. The Israeli gov hasn't presented any new actions or proposals to make Pro-Palestinian people change their pre-narrative. If anything, it has confirmed the most extreme narrative out there which is the genocidal and ethnic cleansing intent. On the other hand, some Pro-Israeli people are still stuck in Oct 7 narrative and regardless of how much new information they are being presented with in regards to what's taking place in Gaza, they still support this war. Edited March 6 by lina Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 6 https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-government-resume-unrwa-funding-1.7134961 Canadian government will resume funding to United Nations relief agency for Palestinians: source Hopefully, some good news in the horizon. Like in this case, public opinion and independent media that pushes for scrutiny can sometimes save lives. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 6 4 hours ago, Danioover9000 said: @Merkabah Star I don't even know why IDF would shoot into the crowds, they could've just shot in mid air and gave warning shots or made a more secure area to distribute the food, yet they sent the trucks, allowed the starving Palestinians to swarm their trucks...to then shot at them??? I'd definitely be charging the soldiers who were shooting into the crowds. So unnecessary to do. It’s an apocalyptic landscape at this point. Palestinians are all dehumanised. Their life means nothing. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 6 1 hour ago, lina said: https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-government-resume-unrwa-funding-1.7134961 Canadian government will resume funding to United Nations relief agency for Palestinians: source Hopefully, some good news in the horizon. Like in this case, public opinion and independent media that pushes for scrutiny can sometimes save lives. That’s good. It looks like the other commonwealth countries will follow. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 6 @Merkabah Star 1 hour ago, Merkabah Star said: It’s an apocalyptic landscape at this point. Palestinians are all dehumanised. Their life means nothing. So what's next then? Will IDF keep on dehumanizing the Gazans? Would it take like concentration camps filled to the brim by Palestinians and Gazans or mass r***** like Nanking for the USA and rest of the world to quickly wake up and demand a ceasefire unconditionally? The IDF is gradually pushing their luck and really really really making Israel look bad. Why don't they do just a conditional ceasefire and sort out the civilians who are starving? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 7 (edited) 8 hours ago, Danioover9000 said: @Merkabah Star So what's next then? Will IDF keep on dehumanizing the Gazans? Would it take like concentration camps filled to the brim by Palestinians and Gazans or mass r***** like Nanking for the USA and rest of the world to quickly wake up and demand a ceasefire unconditionally? The IDF is gradually pushing their luck and really really really making Israel look bad. Why don't they do just a conditional ceasefire and sort out the civilians who are starving? They think it’s Hamas doing it, not them. So, doubt they will stop. Edited March 7 by Merkabah Star Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 7 Hamas started a war because they can’t sit around and continue to be funded by terror organizations worldwide. The fact that they focused on building tunnels under the city shows that they don’t care what will happen above it. Now IDF is doing an extremely hard job to avoid the next massacre. Of course when Hamas is hiding underground civilians will get hurt. To blame Israel for that it’s ridicule. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 7 Quote UN experts have condemned the violence they say was unleashed by Israeli forces last week on Palestinians gathered in Gaza City to collect flour as a “massacre”. In a statement, a group of UN special rapporteurs accused Israel of “intentionally starving the Palestinian people in Gaza since 8 October,” adding: “Now it is targeting civilians seeking humanitarian aid and humanitarian convoys.” “Israel must end its campaign of starvation and targeting of civilians,” said the UN experts, who warned there was mounting evidence of famine in the Gaza Strip. At least 112 people died and 760 were injured on Thursday when desperate crowds gathered to collect flour. Witnesses in Gaza and some of the injured said Israeli forces opened fire on the crowd, causing panic. Israel said people died in a crush or were run over by aid lorries although it admitted its troops had fired on what it called a “mob”. More than 100 Palestinians killed while waiting for aid in Gaza City – video report “The attack came after Israel has denied humanitarian aid into Gaza City and northern Gaza for more than a month,” said the experts, who described “a pattern of Israeli attacks against Palestinian civilians seeking aid”. There have been at least 14 similar reported incidents between mid-January and the end of February of the shooting, shelling and attacking of Palestinians who had gathered to receive humanitarian aid from trucks or airdrops. Since the start of the conflict, Israel has targeted Palestinian food sources and agriculture – bakeries, orchards and greenhouses – as well as blocked humanitarian supplies. On 26 January, the international court of justice recognised the plausibility of Israel committing genocide and ordered it to allow the delivery of urgently needed humanitarian services and aid to Palestinians. The number of trucks allowed to enter the Gaza Strip has since fallen to 57 a day – compared with an average of 147 a day before the ICJ ruling. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/05/un-experts-condemn-israeli-massacre-of-palestinians-collecting-flour Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
