New War In Israel / Gaza

[Nivsch]

18 minutes ago, Twentyfirst said:

There is no indoctrination. That is a huge misconception. It's not that Palestinians are brainwashed from a young age to hate Israel. They just genuinely for themselves see whats happening and choose to fight for their land in whatever way they want to resist. Nobody is making them do anything in the same way Hamas isn't indoctrinating Palestinian refugees to want to return to their land its just what they naturally want 

It is an indoctrination.

To want something is one thing, and to give a gun to a 5 year old child, teaching him he has to kill other people including his own people in some situations is another thing.

Edited February 19 by Nivsch

[Karmadhi]

2 hours ago, Nivsch said:

To rape and then murder, to burn babies and to kill your own (PLO) people and hang your people on electric polls is indeed a freedom fighting. 

Like IDF is any better. There are now every day reports and cases of similar things being done by the IDF. Rape, torture, murder etc.

If you think IDF is any less bloodthirsty and vengeful than Hamas at the moment you need some research to do.

The evidence is there if you search for it.

[Karmadhi]

4 hours ago, Vrubel said:

Ignorant and irrelevant. 

An explanation would be appreciated. You really Jewish culture is better than Muslim culture? Same shit to me to be honest. Culture is culture.

Having preferences is one thing but I can sense you see Jews as superior which is indeed a big problem. All humans have equal value.

4 hours ago, Vrubel said:

"Wait... Israelis are actually very respectable people with the legitimate and deep human right to live on their land and defend it from those that want to harm them as the potential for barbarity of their enemies is so great

Most Palestinians are also respectable people but they are blamed as terrorists. So it goes both ways.

Also you keep ignoring the fact that Israel is seen as a colonialist entity.

You say it here: "Their land". According to liberals it is NOT their land. It is STOLEN land. Land STOLEN by EUROPEANS.

I need to use caps because you keep ignoring this. From a liberal perspective they see white people from USA and Europe , going in and taking the land of Arabs which are obviously from that area. So they will think "Theft, colonialism, white supremacy" etc etc.

Now my question is, why is this argument not true? Personally I am unsure whether Israel is indeed colonialism, Jews may have originated from there thousands of years ago then migrated and merged with other ethnicities. 

But to me it is a bullshit logic that people go and kick off those that lived there for so long because 5000 years ago perhaps they were from there.

It is similar to Putin logic that Ukraine is not a real country because at 900 AD they were 1 entitity. 

So my question is: Why should Jews in order to feel safe, kick out others. Why this zero sum logic? Sure, Jews now have a homeland and are "safe" but at the expense of others. Is this really acceptable? Why didnt they get the homeland they deserve somewhere where they were indeed wanted. 

 

Edited February 19 by Karmadhi

[Nivsch]

48 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

Like IDF is any better. There are now every day reports and cases of similar things being done by the IDF. Rape, torture, murder etc.

If you think IDF is any less bloodthirsty and vengeful than Hamas at the moment you need some research to do.

The evidence is there if you search for it.

Seems like you can invent anything at this point.

When you want the day to turn into night I can't do anything about it.

Think for yourself and thats it.

Edited February 19 by Nivsch

[Vrubel]

3 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

An explanation would be appreciated. You really Jewish culture is better than Muslim culture? Same shit to me to be honest. Culture is culture.

Having preferences is one thing but I can sense you see Jews as superior which is indeed a big problem. All humans have equal value.

I am not going to entertain your flimsy and speculative theories about Jewish culture and religion. It's also not that relevant, furthermore I never really grew up with Jewish culture. It was more of a mix of Russian culture and Western principles. Also, everything your mind touches gets mushed into your narrow narrative so why should I even bother?

 

3 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

Also you keep ignoring the fact that Israel is seen as a colonialist entity.

You say it here: "Their land". According to liberals it is NOT their land. It is STOLEN land. Land STOLEN by EUROPEANS.

I need to use caps because you keep ignoring this. From a liberal perspective they see white people from USA and Europe , going in and taking the land of Arabs which are obviously from that area. So they will think "Theft, colonialism, white supremacy" etc etc.

Now my question is, why is this argument not true? Personally I am unsure whether Israel is indeed colonialism, Jews may have originated from there thousands of years ago then migrated and merged with other ethnicities. 

The Jews were mostly dirt-poor pioneers from Eastern Europe and refugees from the Middle East. The Middle Eastern Jews were kicked out by the Arabs and lived in refugee camps before being absorbed and fully integrated into Israeli society. European Jews only had a majority in the land for around 30 years. Israel is very much so a Middle Eastern country. Jews don't have some old country or "motherland" they can return to. Israel is the motherland and old country. There is no second Israel. That's why Israelis are so motivated and uncompromising in the defense of their land that they genuinely and deeply love.

 

3 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

So my question is: Why should Jews in order to feel safe, kick out others. Why this zero sum logic? Sure, Jews now have a homeland and are "safe" but at the expense of others. Is this really acceptable? Why didnt they get the homeland they deserve somewhere where they were indeed wanted. 

Back in the day, it was a relatively sparsely populated land under Ottoman and later British rule, it was never a "Palestinian" country, there was no centralized government or sovereignty over their land. The land itself was mostly owned by rich Lebanese (who sold it to Jews). The Palestinian national identity didn't exist. First came the Zionist pioneers and as a reaction the Palestinian national identity was developed. Do the Palestinians have the right to their land? absolutely, simply because they live there. But did they also start wars that made them lose out on more of the land: Absolutely. 

I know it's an Israeli cliche but if you dig into the ground anywhere in Israel you'll find Jewish artifacts, this is true. Jews are native to the land. As opposed to Palestinians, Jews actually held sovereignty in the land before being kicked out after the 'Great Jewish Revolt' into the Diaspora and coming back 2000 years later. But even all the historical knowledge aside (so you won't accuse me of using Putin tactics, though I am being 100% truthful). There are two truths side by side: The Palestinians have the right to the land and so do the Jews. For different but equally legitimate reasons. 

Even though during WW2 the main Palestinian leader was a Nazi sympathetic to Hitler, it's true that Palestinians had nothing to do with the Holocaust or earlier persecution of Jews in Europe. But it is the force and poetry of history that has brought the Jews back to their ancient homeland. It's an universal Karma and I understand why the Palestinians feel wronged by that. But such is reality. The world is not all rainbow and sunshine, Jews know this starkly well. Cut your losses and make peace. Palestinians can take comfort in that Arabs still live in Israel and partake in the democratic system. Like-wise I think Jewish settlers can also take comfort in simply living on their biblical heartland even though it might fall under Palestinian sovereignty under any future peace deal. 

 

 

Edited February 20 by Vrubel

[Nivsch]

@Vrubel This is a waste of time. Most members here dont care about all the 100 times Israel tried to negotiate and believed the other side can be moderate and pragmatic and did many things to find a common ground.

No. They will only care when Israel makes mistakes. They will cherry pick 1 overreaction and overlook 20 genuine trials done before that.

The attacking on Israel is mostly psychological and spiritual and the real answer you will find in this world. Logic and detailes does not work.

Edited February 20 by Nivsch

[Vrubel]

@Nivsch Absolutely right, It's more for myself. I know shit and enjoy writing about history and Israel, standing up for truth is also important but it's definitely a trap to get sucked into useless back-and-forths with what could be 17-year-olds on the internet.

Also, I am spiritually regrounding myself, after 7/10 is was too angry and emotional, and even though I support and see the necessity of the total elimination of Hamas the peace dream should win out in the end. 

Edited February 20 by Vrubel

[toasty7718]

When is this topic gonna close? it's already 358 pages

[Yimpa]

7 minutes ago, toasty7718 said:

When is this topic gonna close? it's already 358 pages

I give it another 2-3 years.

[Buck Edwards]

You have to eliminate every rat in the city. Only then you ensure a rat free society. 

 

Where there's a rat, there's insanity.

 

[Karmadhi]

17 hours ago, Nivsch said:

Seems like you can invent anything at this point

Actually Israel is the one inventing things like 40 beheaded babies. When I speak I talk about actual footage and reports from credible international organizations not individual countries. If you trust Israel government which are proven liars more than WHO, UN, Amnesty International etc then it says more about you then me.

Edited February 20 by Karmadhi

[Karmadhi]

14 hours ago, Vrubel said:

Also, everything your mind touches gets mushed into your narrow narrative so why should I even bother?

You were lastly praising me over "correct analysis or toxic green", now you criticize me again  

14 hours ago, Vrubel said:

The Middle Eastern Jews were kicked out by the Arabs and lived in refugee camps before being absorbed and fully integrated into Israeli society.

I saw this happened after Israel was founded as response to the Nakba. Or are you referring about previous stuff?

14 hours ago, Vrubel said:

Israel is the motherland and old country. There is no second Israel. That's why Israelis are so motivated and uncompromising in the defense of their land that they genuinely and deeply love.

When was the last time Jews dominated the land? Stuff from thousands of years ago is irrelevant. Lets say in 1800s until 1930s. Who dominated the land in terms of population? If it was Jews then sure. Otherwise, it can be a problem. Usually whoever dominates the land tends to have the rights to it. By Jews I am talking Arab Jews too.

Also you may speak like this but many politicals including Bennet say that Israel is their "holy land" and basically make it about religion. And I think in 2024 religion is a stupid argument on why X people should be in Y place.

14 hours ago, Vrubel said:

Do the Palestinians have the right to their land? absolutely, simply because they live there. But did they also start wars that made them lose out on more of the land: Absolutely. 

I think declaring war on Israel was wrong. But also Israel atrocities and ethnic cleansing during the war was also wrong. So it is messy. From what I saw their motivation was that Jews which were a minority were given too much land and too good land. Also the whole Jerusalem issue.

Dont forget that many Palestinians took Jewish refugees that Europe did not want so that is also something. I read reports of families taking in Jews only for those Jews to kick them out later. Bitting the hand that feeds you kind of stuff. I do not know how common it was. 

I just saw it on some places so I cannot verify if it is propaganda or not so please do not start accusing me again.

14 hours ago, Vrubel said:

Jews are native to the land. As opposed to Palestinians, Jews actually held sovereignty in the land before being kicked out after the 'Great Jewish Revolt' into the Diaspora and coming back 2000 years later. But even all the historical knowledge aside (so you won't accuse me of using Putin tactics, though I am being 100% truthful). There are two truths side by side: The Palestinians have the right to the land and so do the Jews. For different but equally legitimate reasons. 

It is not that I do not believe you. It is just that to me, what happened 2000 years ago is irrelevant now. By that logic the whole world map should change since humans move all the time. Also it is not that I am against an Israeli state in general but to me it should be a fair split. 50/50 or something for the land with Jerusalem being a neutral place. Not this crazy 90/10 split which we have now.

14 hours ago, Vrubel said:

Cut your losses and make peace.

Easy to say when you are in the winning end. When your house gets stolen from you it is hard to be so rational.

Also if Israel gives Palestinians equal rights I think it would be easier for them to do so.

You are acting as there was a change of management only when there is also tons of oppression.

And these are not my words but of international organizations. So I think they know better than me or you.

14 hours ago, Vrubel said:

Like-wise I think Jewish settlers can also take comfort in simply living on their biblical heartland even though it might fall under Palestinian sovereignty under any future peace deal.

Sure, they can live like foreigns and then become Palestinians if they want. Same way someone from Morocco goes to France then becomes a french citizen after some years. 

14 hours ago, Vrubel said:

Palestinians can take comfort in that Arabs still live in Israel and partake in the democratic system.

Issue is that many organizations claim Israel misstreats them, is an apartheid and racist place. I know people that went there and told me this but when international organizations say so I think it is telling a lot. Unless Israel fixes this it will not be solved this issue.

Also many Israeli intellectuals like Yuan Havari have said similar stuff. I can find sources if you want.

So this need to be sorted out.

Edited February 20 by Karmadhi

[Karmadhi]

14 hours ago, Vrubel said:

could be 17-year-olds

25  

[Raze]

 

Edited February 21 by Raze

[Nivsch]

@Raze 

You have to site accurately. She said "... what the Jews did, that their families have been murdered, that have been raped and their civilians were kidnapped".

Can you see the trauma and difficult emotions behind Israeli public speakers talks, or that you only capable to see them as "bad" or "rude"?

How would you react if even 'only' 12 people in your village were murdered and kidnapped?

Do you think you would not react militantly?

Then you fool yourself.

Edited February 22 by Nivsch

[Karmadhi]

2 hours ago, Nivsch said:

You have to site accurately. She said "... what the Jews did, that their families have been murdered, that have been raped and their civilians were kidnapped".

Can you see the trauma and difficult emotions behind Israeli public speakers talks, or that you only capable too see them as "bad" or "rude"?

How would you react if only 12 people in your village were murdered and kidnapped?

If the people doing the killings have not been personally affected it does not justify atrocities. The reason I am more lineant towards Hamas atrocities is because they have been personally affected by Israel bombings. Most of those that did the atrocities were orphans or people that lost family. The people that keep killing kids in Gaza, did they also loose family members like that? If they did then I can understand it. If not, unacceptable.

2 hours ago, Nivsch said:

Do you think you would not react militantly?

Military reaction and genocide are different things you know. That is like saying: "Hamas is doing resistance".

You will rightfully say: "That is not resistance, its just massacring civilians".

Well same here: This is not self defense, it is massacring civilians on a 30x larger scale.

Two wrongs dont make a right.

Also, if you say "a military response is needed when you are attacked", by that logic alone Hamas should have attacked Isarel considering all the attacks Israel did beforehand. You Israelis ignore that in 2014 for example close to 2000 civilians in Gaza were killed, 500 childreen meanwhile Israel lost like no civilians.

That was in 2014. Now those orphans grow up and make it their life mission to wipe you out.

Have you ever tried to put yourself in the shoes of people in Gaza? Look at the wars between Israel and Gaza since 2006 and the ridiculous amount of civilians Israel killed compared to their looses. 

Cant you realize that when you kill someone's family they will basically become a monster that wants to wipe you out? 

Unfortunately that is most humans. It is what it is.

Why you think Hamas is so brutal?

Edited February 22 by Karmadhi

[Karmadhi]

@Raze These posts you shared are concrete proof Israel is acting like Hamas at this point.

I knew they were brutal but this is stage red/blue behavior at this point.

 

[Nivsch]

@Karmadhi And this is why I feel I can't discuss with you.

You are conspiring whatever you want out of your hat 🪄

Edited February 22 by Nivsch

[Karmadhi]

30 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

You are conspiring whatever you want out of your hat 🪄

Yeah well seeing every day dozens of dead/horribly injured kids, footage of civilians being bombed with missiles, snipers killing people trying to get food, ambulances bombed, hospitals without supplies full of people screaming from pain and soldiers proudly taking selfies with hand tied blindfolded people or destroyed buildings does not help much with that.

And this has been going on for 4 months now.

[Nivsch]

3 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

 You Israelis ignore that in 2014 for example close to 2000 civilians in Gaza were killed, 500 childreen meanwhile Israel lost like no civilians.

That was in 2014. Now those orphans grow up and make it their life mission to wipe you out.

Do you understand that hamas survival strategy, just like breathing, is to hide as cleverly as it can behind civilians?

Edited February 22 by Nivsch