Posted February 18 (edited) 4 minutes ago, MAHAVATAR_-_BABAJI said: The U.S would have done much worse if we were invased by Hamas. It's crazy how everyone is against Israel. Seems like a strong bias... And every other western country as well. Definitely there is an additional psychological layer to the attacks on Israel which is itself really the main root reason, even above the physical war which is the secondary reason. Edited February 18 by Nivsch 🌻 Thinking independently about the spiral stages themselves is important for going through them in an organic, efficient way. If you stick to an external idea about how a stage should be you lose touch with its real self customized process trying to happen inside you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 18 26 minutes ago, MAHAVATAR_-_BABAJI said: The U.S would have done much worse if we were invased by Hamas. It's crazy how everyone is against Israel. Seems like a strong bias... In the Afghanistan war the US used primarily targeted smart bombs and the largest was 500 lb, Israel has used mostly untargteed dumb bombs and some are 2K lbs even though they’re bombing denser civilian areas. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 18 (edited) 41 minutes ago, hundreth said: Believe it or not, Israel's response is an effective defensive deterrent. No one in the region expected such a strong response to Hamas' actions, bordering on unhinged. From a strictly defensive perspective, no one wants to attack a crazy Israel. On the other hand, they've destroyed much of their international reputation, and this could have broader consequences for them. Yes, strength is respected in the East. not even the Middle East but just East. Sadat said: As long as Israel is strong she shall exist. And he was the president of Egypt. With the 7/10 attack life got desanctified. Now collective survival and considerations take precedence over individual ones. As unfortunate as civilian casualties are they are unavoidable with such an enemy within such an environment. I also ask the question that if you have cheered on 7/10, that is surely a form of complicity as well. A form of self-dehumanization. For those who are truly innocent, I feel sorry and hope they'll get a beautiful and peaceful Gaza after the war. Btw Gaza was genuinely a beautiful city. Relative to the region, Egypt and for example Pakistan and even Latin America it was normal. If only they had decent government. Edited February 18 by Vrubel Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 18 (edited) 57 minutes ago, Raze said: In the Afghanistan war the US used primarily targeted smart bombs and the largest was 500 lb, Israel has used mostly untargteed dumb bombs and some are 2K lbs even though they’re bombing denser civilian areas. How do you know if they are civilians and really what is happening? They aren't counting how.many people they are killing and what affiliations they have, and Updated in real time.😂. Hamas has killed and tortured more civilians. Hamas is different than Afghanistan and the U.S faced Afghanistan for years(had time to think about their approach). And the U.S killed many children and innocent people in Vietnam Edited February 18 by MAHAVATAR_-_BABAJI Feminist Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 18 (edited) 33 minutes ago, MAHAVATAR_-_BABAJI said: How do you know if they are civilians and really what is happening? They aren't counting how.many people they are killing and what affiliations they have, and Updated in real time.😂. Hamas has killed and tortured more civilians. Hamas is different than Afghanistan and the U.S faced Afghanistan for years(had time to think about their approach). And the U.S killed many children and innocent people in Vietnam Even if we go by the IDF’s own reported numbers, they’ve killed 20x the civilians in just this conflict. Their numbers are probably overestimating how many hamas are killed as well. Israel had far more time to think about their approach, this isn’t the first conflict, they’ve been dealing with Palestine for years. see here: https://www.statista.com/chart/16516/israeli-palestinian-casualties-by-in-gaza-and-the-west-bank/ Notice these were all before this conflict which has already killed nearly 30k Palestinians, hamas has not killed more civilians. Edited February 18 by Raze Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 18 9 minutes ago, Raze said: Even if we go by the IDF’s own reported numbers, they’ve killed 20x the civilians in just this conflict. Their numbers are probably overestimating how many hamas are killed as well. Israel had far more time to think about their approach, this isn’t the first conflict, they’ve been dealing with Palestine for years. see here: https://www.statista.com/chart/16516/israeli-palestinian-casualties-by-in-gaza-and-the-west-bank/ Notice these were all before this conflict which has already killed nearly 30k Palestinians, hamas has not killed more civilians. That is true. They simply hate each other. And resolve it in immature lower-consciousness ways. It could be done in a higher consciousness manner. Feminist Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 18 This whole situation is so ridiculous it's a joke at this point: Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 18 Deceitful mushmind propaganda. If you were to watch the full NYT interview with that woman you'll see she is very intelligent and reflective. They just took one excerpt in total bad faith, hyperbolized it, mushed it into their narrative, and ran with it like Forest Gump. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 18 (edited) 7 hours ago, Vrubel said: With the 7/10 attack life got desanctified. Now collective survival and considerations take precedence over individual ones. As unfortunate as civilian casualties are they are unavoidable with such an enemy within such an environment. I also ask the question that if you have cheered on 7/10, that is surely a form of complicity as well. A form of self-dehumanization. For those who are truly innocent, I feel sorry and hope they'll get a beautiful and peaceful Gaza after the war. Btw Gaza was genuinely a beautiful city. Relative to the region, Egypt and for example Pakistan and even Latin America it was normal. If only they had decent government. You are acting as if Israel is at threat of being wiped out or something. They lost like 800 civilians, many countries lost far more and did not act like this. Bosnia lost like 30.000, Kosovo 10.000, Ukraine around 10.000. I feel like Israel values their lives so much more compared to other countries than to them even a starch seems like the end of the world. I can understand it but it is not realistic and just fuels fear and dumb propaganda. Ironically they are thirsty for genocide after loosing 800 people yet criticize Palestine when they are thirsty for genocide after loosing tens of thousands through the years. Hypocrisy of its finest. Israel experienced like 1/10 of what Palestine has and already they have the same genocidal intent that they have. And they are supposed to be the "civilized ones". If Israel was truly a civilized advanced society they would have done precise strikes like they did on the Hamas leader on Lebanon, resulting in fewer than 1000 Palestinian civilian deaths. Then they would focus on mostly defense, making sure they will not be ever invaded again. The iron dome would take care of the rockets from Hamas. Also, the government would say that this is a provocation for us to overact and we will show we are better than those savages and we will not lower ourselves to their level. If you want a developed response to the October 7/10 attacks. If Israel did this I can assure you it would have gotten worldwide praise and support. Now it has worldwide hate and is probably the most hated country in the world at the moment. Many young people from Europe cannot stand it, I know because I have countless international friends and there is widespread disgust for what Israel is doing. I have never seen this sort of disgust in my life towards a country. Even Russia invasion of Ukraine pales in comparison. Great job. Edited February 18 by Karmadhi Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 19 (edited) 1 hour ago, Karmadhi said: You are acting as if Israel is at threat of being wiped out or something. I am just aware of the fire under Israel's feet, it is most definitely existential. 1 hour ago, Karmadhi said: They lost like 800 civilians, many countries lost far more and did not act like this. Bosnia lost like 30.000, Kosovo 10.000, Ukraine around 10.000. 1400 killed, kidnapped and tortured is obviously horrific enough to have the stark need to eliminate Hamas. 1 hour ago, Karmadhi said: Israel experienced like 1/10 of what Palestine has and already they have the same genocidal intent that they have. Israel now needs to eliminate Hamas. The Palestinians will continue to live in Gaza and they'll get the opportunity to pursue their political agenda in a non-violent, non-genocidal manner. 1 hour ago, Karmadhi said: Also, the government would say that this is a provocation for us to overact and we will show we are better than those savages and we will not lower ourselves to their level. If you want a developed response to the October 7/10 attacks. If Israel did this I can assure you it would have gotten worldwide praise and support. Irrelevant, Israel has to repopulate the attacked kibbutz villages, Those people cannot come back if Hamas is still in power. This is just one example, more generally speaking: Israel can't exist next to Hamas. At the end of the day what gives Israel its right to exist is its strength and ability to defend its citizens. I have seen how manipulative and determined anti-Israel propaganda is. They will hate Israel whether it's white or black, doesn't matter, they will always find something. 1 hour ago, Karmadhi said: Now it has worldwide hate and is probably the most hated country in the world at the moment. Many young people from Europe cannot stand it, I know because I have countless international friends and there is widespread disgust for what Israel is doing. I have never seen this sort of disgust in my life towards a country. Even Russia invasion of Ukraine pales in comparison. Great job. Jew hatred is nothing new and Israel's security takes precedence over anti-semitism abroad because Israel is the homeland of Jews. If Jews don't feel safe abroad they can move to Israel or another country with less or no anti-semitism. And yes Israel stands for the survival of the Jewish people so being hateful of Israel and having a demonized view of Israelis is anti-semitic. Excuse my hyperbolism but the whole "river to the sea" movement is basically the 21st-century version of the Nazi brown shirts. Maybe even more mindless because they didn't have the pretense of standing up for "human rights" let alone the delusion that they have some moral high ground. If you stand for human rights you also stand for the rights of the Uighurs, Rohingya and Assyrians but you don't give a fuck about them because there are no Jews involved. Having said that: Legitimate criticism and for example being against settlements is totally fine and understandable. It's all about from what place you're coming from. Edited February 19 by Vrubel Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 19 (edited) 10 hours ago, Vrubel said: I am just aware of the fire under Israel's feet, it is most definitely existential. Can you explain to me how realistically Hamas could have wiped out Israel? 10 hours ago, Vrubel said: 1400 killed, kidnapped and tortured is obviously horrific enough to have the stark need to eliminate Hamas. Bullshit numbers. It is confirmed by Israel 1200 dead and 800 civilians among them. 800 civilians is a big number but nothing compared to other conflicts. I gave you some examples you ignored. And torture, killing etc happens in every war. It is not special to this one. Countless examples of Israeli torturing Palestinians in Gaza right now. Seen countless pictures. And they pridefully boast on it. 80 year old women with marks on their body from abuse. Terrible stuff. 10 hours ago, Vrubel said: Israel now needs to eliminate Hamas. The Palestinians will continue to live in Gaza and they'll get the opportunity to pursue their political agenda in a non-violent, non-genocidal manner. Good luck with Israel wanting to raze it to the ground and wipe them all out. You seem to ignore the genocide talks in Israeli own government. There will be no more Gaza left at this rate. Return to where? They want to kick them all out and starve them. Open the news before writting such wishful thinking. 10 hours ago, Vrubel said: Irrelevant, Israel has to repopulate the attacked kibbutz villages, Those people cannot come back if Hamas is still in power. This is just one example, more generally speaking: Israel can't exist next to Hamas. At the end of the day what gives Israel its right to exist is its strength and ability to defend its citizens. It can defend its citizens without destroying Gaza and Hamas in this manner. Perhaps creating a buffer zone and temporarily relocating the attacked areas. It has the resources to do this. It can take out key Hamas posts, not carpet bomb Gaza to ruins. 10 hours ago, Vrubel said: I have seen how manipulative and determined anti-Israel propaganda is. They will hate Israel whether it's white or black, doesn't matter, they will always find something. Actually Leo said similar stuff and I doubt he is white and black person. 10 hours ago, Vrubel said: Jew hatred is nothing new and Israel's security takes precedence over anti-semitism abroad because Israel is the homeland of Jews. If Jews don't feel safe abroad they can move to Israel or another country with less or no anti-semitism. And yes Israel stands for the survival of the Jewish people so being hateful of Israel and having a demonized view of Israelis is anti-semitic. Most people got nothing against Jews. They got issues with Zionism and Israeli fascist government. Personally I dont care about Jew or not. Israel is to blame here, not Jews at large. It is a shame Jews are being attacked outside Israel. 10 hours ago, Vrubel said: Excuse my hyperbolism but the whole "river to the sea" movement is basically the 21st-century version of the Nazi brown shirts. I mean Israel says the same thing so it is not better here. Their PM said the same thing basically. Do not ignore that. Netanyahu: 'From the River to the Sea,' Israel Must Have Control (rollingstone.com) 10 hours ago, Vrubel said: Maybe even more mindless because they didn't have the pretense of standing up for "human rights" let alone the delusion that they have some moral high ground. A fascist government is not a "human rights" advocate either. 10 hours ago, Vrubel said: f you stand for human rights you also stand for the rights of the Uighurs, Rohingya and Assyrians but you don't give a fuck about them because there are no Jews involved. Having said that: Legitimate criticism and for example being against settlements is totally fine and understandable. It's all about from what place you're coming from. To be fair the criticizm comes because the West is complicit with it and they preach human rights. I think if the West did the right thing and disowned Israel and left them to fend alone unless they changed their ways, I am sure people would be less critical. You think if the West would support China with Uighurs people wouldnt be angry? But what can the West do to China? Or Russia? It cannot do anything. It is what it is. Meanwhile it can do so much to Israel. I would personally support the West turning Israel into another Russia in terms of treatment and relations. Lastly what you fail to realize is that within liberals , they are not anti sematic by design. They love everyone. However, they hate oppression and bullying. And Israel is viewed as the bully, as the oppressor. They are seen as the bad guy. That has nothing to do with being Jewish. It is simply by the way they act. Genocide will give you that reputation. This is made worse by the fact that it is European Jews doing it. But not because they are Jewish but because they are white Europeans. Basically it is seen as colonialism which has a bad reputation these days, especially with green people. it is seen like a return to the past which we seem to demonize and view with disgust. White people massacring indigenous people in a land that is not theirs. How come nobody hated on Arab Jews before the European Jews came? They were seen as indigenous people to the area. So this is also linked to that. What it boils down fundamentally, is that people do not want a white guy from Poland (Israeli PM) to tell brown Arabs where to go. A European should not rule over non Europeans in land outside Europe. That is how people see this deep down. It may not seem as politically correct for me to say it like this but from reading hundreds of comments on this issue among common people, this is the main thing I noticed. That is why they are much more tolerant when Arabs kill each other in other wars. They are seen as 1 unit killing each other within the unit. White European Jews are seen as a third party, a colonizer and therefore when they kill people it is seen as 100x worse. Putting White Europeans in Arab land is by far the biggest mistake they could have done considering people are quite sensitive about colonialism. Whether they are Jew or not is irrelevant. Arabs historically have been far more friendly and tolerant of Jews compared to Europeans. So calling them Jew haters historically is false. Edited February 19 by Karmadhi Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 19 4 minutes ago, Karmadhi said: Can you explain to me how realistically Hamas could have wiped out Israel? Bullshit numbers. It is confirmed by Israel 1200 dead and 800 civilians among them. 800 civilians is a big number but nothing compared to other conflicts. I gave you some examples you ignored. And torture, killing etc happens in every war. It is not special to this one. Good luck with Israel wanting to raze it to the ground and wipe them all out. You seem to ignore the genocide talks in Israeli own government. There will be no more Gaza left at this rate. Return to where? They want to kick them all out and starve them. Open the news before writting such wishful thinking. It can defend its citizens without destroying Gaza and Hamas in this manner. Perhaps creating a buffer zone and temporarily relocating the attacked areas. It has the resources to do this. It can take out key Hamas posts, not carpet bomb Gaza to ruins. Actually Leo said similar stuff and I doubt he is white and black person. Most people got nothing against Jews. They got issues with Zionism and Israeli fascist government. Personally I care about Jew or not. Israel is to blame here, not Jews at large. It is a shame Jews are being attacked outside Israel. I mean Israel says the same thing so it is not better here. Their PM said the same thing basically. Do not ignore that. A fascist government is not a "human rights" advocate either. To be fair the criticizm comes because the West is complicit with it and they preach human rights. I think if the West did the right thing and disowned Israel and left them to fend alone unless they changed their ways, I am sure people would be less critical. You think if the West would support China with Uighurs people wouldnt be angry? But what can the West do to China? Or Russia? It cannot do anything. It is what it is. Meanwhile it can do so much to Israel. I would personally support the West turning Israel into another Russia in terms of treatment and relations. Let them fend for themselves. Dude, you aren't military and you haven't even stepped foot In Israel. If you have an infestation how do you remove the bugs? Feminist Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 19 2 minutes ago, MAHAVATAR_-_BABAJI said: Dude, you aren't military and you haven't even stepped foot In Israel. If you have an infestation how do you remove the bugs? With a surgical procedure, not by cutting down your whole arm (body bugs) or burning down your house (bed bugs). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 19 Don't automatically assume a group of people is an infestation. Especially when you are on their land Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 19 If you are a good gardener, you would warn others about pharmaceutical complex, so you won't have artificial problems which people profit from, but things like that can't happen in democracy. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 19 (edited) @Sucuk Ekmek 6 hours ago, Twentyfirst said: Especially when you are on their land What is hilarious about Israelis is that they accuse Muslims and Palestinians for being religious fanatics, yet their most common "proof" that the land is Jewish is some religious nonsense from the fictional Judaism books. Imagine someone saying "I will take your house because Quran says it is ours" yet claiming to be a secular advanced society. I have seen countless Israeli top politicans including Bennet use the holy books as their "proof" that the land is theirs during interviews. So we are not talking about Jewish religious minorities here but top tier politicians. Basically the equivalent of Biden saying it. An advanced society uses DNA testing not religious nonsense to prove this stuff. However in Israel DNA testing is illegal, not surprising considering most of their government is imported people from outside Israel like Morocco, USA, Poland etc. Just to disclaim, I am not against European Jews or Jews from anywhere go to live in X place. There are plenty of Arabs in Europe for example. However, they come because Europe takes them and they fall under European jurisdiction and do not kick out Europeans and claim any land there. They live as immigrants and later become citizens. Edited February 19 by Karmadhi Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 19 @Karmadhi You seem hellbound on a narrow narrative. This makes it impossible for you to be truthful and within integrity to any redeemable values you might hold. It's obvious to anyone who doesn't share your extreme bias that you're beyond reason and mentally cornered. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 19 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Vrubel said: You seem hellbound on a narrow narrative. This makes it impossible for you to be truthful and within integrity to any redeemable values you might hold. It's obvious to anyone who doesn't share your extreme bias that you're beyond reason and mentally cornered. I would say at least half the people in the world, especially young generation seem to share this narrative so if that is the case then you are stuck with it. Go ask people about the conflict or read comments on social media. Half call Hamas resistance movement and not terrorists. What would you call people that think like that? At least nobody here does that. So if we seem biased to you, know there is much much worse out there. To be honest, many here and around the world can also call you extreme pro Israel biased, Leo also did the same. So it goes both ways. Do not assume you are above this in this conflict. I see your posts on other conflicts like the Ukranian war to be far more grounded and objective. Is this conflict personal for you? Edited February 19 by Karmadhi Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 19 (edited) 5 hours ago, Karmadhi said: Half call Hamas resistance movement and not terrorists. Half also think you need to blindly take pills doctor tell you and have zero respect to their body. So? Edited February 19 by Nivsch 🌻 Thinking independently about the spiral stages themselves is important for going through them in an organic, efficient way. If you stick to an external idea about how a stage should be you lose touch with its real self customized process trying to happen inside you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 19 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpdBogj3w1U The Crisis in Gaza: Navigating Difficult Conversations with Dr. Gabor Maté & Daniel Maté High-quality conversation worth listening to. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
