New War In Israel / Gaza

[Nivsch]

@Yousif I am not justifying anything, but you will have to bring here an another alternative to how to do this war.

Given hamas tactics, it is impossible to touch him without touch civilians too in most of the attacks.

Edited February 17 by Nivsch

[Twentyfirst]

3 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

@Yousif I am not justifying anything, but you will have to bring here an another alternative to how to do this war.

Given hamas tactics, it is impossible to touch him without touch civilians too.

You are talking about the tunnels that Hamas builds that endangers civilian life? What about the fact that they have no choice but to go underground because there isn't any other option because they are backed into a corner 

[Yousif]

1 minute ago, Nivsch said:

@Yousif I am not justifying anything, but you will have to bring here an another alternative to how to do this war.

Given hamas tactics, it is impossible to touch him without touch civilians too.

I asked one simple question and please don’t avoid it again, 

does that justify the killing of civilians and innocent people? Even if there where no other solution? 
 

also in a hostage scenario, you would do anything to protect the hostage, you could’ve treated hamas as terrorist holding hostages ( which would be innocent civilians ) but you simply don’t care about their lives and don’t see what you’re doing as a crime, I keep repeating the same point, and you keep on avoiding it, so nothing is accomplished.

[Thought Art]

@Yousif Demonizing me that I think killing innocent people is okay. But, just not my people. That’s how I interpret that. 

If I was going to take an objective, selfless view on it… my results should be the same regardless of whether I’m at risk or not.
 

However, if I was at risk I couldn’t contemplate it in the way I do. That should be obvious. 
 

And like I said, doesn’t change how OTHER PEOPLE justify their actions.  When I try to understand OTHER peoples perspectives, it doesn’t mean I agree with them. 
 

I would prefer no war at all anyway. Whether it’s here or not. 
 

But, the thing is what are OTHERS those actually involved thinking and doing. Make that distinction.

Edited February 17 by Thought Art

[Nivsch]

@Yousif I dont understand this game of justified or not justified.

I wish nobody innocent would have been killed. Of course. But this is impossible.

Edited February 17 by Nivsch

[Yousif]

7 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

@Yousif Demonizing me that I think killing innocent people is okay. But, just not my people. That’s how I interpret that. 

If I was going to take an objective, selfless view on it… my results should be the same regardless of whether I’m at risk or not.
 

However, if I was at risk I couldn’t contemplate it in the way I do. That should be obvious. 
 

And like I said, doesn’t change how OTHER PEOPLE justify their actions.  When I try to understand OTHER peoples perspectives, it doesn’t mean I agree with them. 
 

I would prefer no war at all anyway. Whether it’s here or not. 
 

But, the thing is what are OTHERS those actually involved thinking and doing. Make that distinction.

That’s not what I meant, don’t interpret meaning of things and then believe it to be true.

[Yousif]

9 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

@Yousif I dont understand this game of justified or not justified.

I wish nobody innocent would have been killed. Of course. But this is impossible.

But it’s not, it’s a choice your government made, and you’re with them on it, again u can’t control the government, but you can control not supporting murder.

 

 

[Nivsch]

3 minutes ago, Yousif said:

But it’s not, it’s a choice your government made, and you’re with them on it, again u can’t control the government, but you can control not supporting murder.

By your logic we must not agree with the Allied attacks on Germany because then we justified murder of innocent. Sorry but this is absurd.

Edited February 17 by Nivsch

[Yousif]

45 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

By your logic we must not agree with the Allied attacks on Germany because then we justified murder of innocent. Sorry but this is absurd.

you keep talking collectively while ignoring the individual aspect of the problem, i don’t care who did what, all I know is killing innocent people is a crime and whoever did it is a murderer, now if that happens collectively or individually it does not matter. 

that’s that problem that the east has with the west, they created laws and human rights, but then they themselves don’t follow them which is exactly the point that hamas succeeded in doing at the cost of innocent peoples lives, 

It’s the problem of? Who’s gonna guard the guards? 
 

Both collective and individual points of view is correct, choosing one side over the other is wrong, you’ll fall into duality, and you become delusional, unable to see the truth of the matter, or take responsibility for it instead of justifying it.

[zurew]

@Yousif without virtue signaling and rambling about non-duality can you give an exact, concise plan what should Israel do?

[Yousif]

@Nivsch here’s what I want you to see:- 

What hamas did was wrong was wrong and it is a terrorist attack, I understand. 
 

but they way you’re doing things to innocent civilians and the whole city in general says :- 

“ yeah, you’re a terrorist, but I’m more of a terrorist than you “ 

you don’t put out fire with fire 

You don’t do exactly what they did and even worse and then acts like they’re the only bad guys, you’re just as bad if not more if we look at the innocent citizens that have died from BOTH SIDES. 
 

your whole reason for this war is because they killed innocent Israeli people, 

so what you do isyou go copy the ugly thing they did to you? 
 

Do you see how you’re making more cruelty, 

what you’re doing is not justice 

its vengeance. 
you get nothing out of vengeance, you only become the very thing you want revenge on. 

[Yousif]

6 minutes ago, zurew said:

@Yousif without virtue signaling and rambling about non-duality can you give an exact, concise plan what should Israel do?

It’s not my job to tell you what to do, but I took it upon myself to remind you that killing innocent people is a crime punishable by law, just looking out for a fellow friend.

[Nivsch]

@Yousif How would you call the Allied attack on Germany in WW2?

Would you think they are as bad as the Nazis? 

But I can understand you in the way that if some Israelis are so in rage that call for killing of palestinians in general, then yes, those people who say this are in danger of thinking too similar to the terrorists. So I understand you here.

Edited February 17 by Nivsch

[zurew]

3 minutes ago, Yousif said:

It’s not my job to tell you what to do, but I took it upon myself to remind you that killing innocent people is a crime punishable by law, just looking out for a fellow friend.

Yeah this is virtue signaling - literally everyone knows this, but war comes with the killing of innocent lives and what you don't take into account is that being passive sometimes can bring more innocent deaths than engaging in wars - thats why you need to drop the platitudes and come back to real life and try to actually analyze and engage with the situation so that you can come up with the best strategy according to your knowledge that can actually minimize the global suffering and death long term.

[Yousif]

8 minutes ago, zurew said:

Yeah this is virtue signaling - literally everyone knows this, but war comes with the killing of innocent lives and what you don't take into account is that being passive sometimes can bring more innocent deaths than engaging in wars - thats why you need to drop the platitudes and come back to real life and try to actually analyze and engage with the situation so that you can come up with the best strategy according to your knowledge that can actually minimize the global suffering and death long term.

There’s such a thing as war crimes which is what you’re doing but refuse to admit and nobody is putting you on the spot because the U.S. and russia are doing the same thing. 
 

there are higher implications that you’re not getting like you cannot put out fire with fire, which means you’re gonna safe the earth from peace by copying the terrorist, 

I’m not fucking theorizing, you don’t put an end to bullying by becoming more of a bully, you’re feeding into this shit. 

 

[zurew]

@Yousif Yeah as I thought, you have nothing of substance to contribute to any of the conflict - you are here to give platitudes (that everyone knows) and to virtue signal.

The problem with what you are doing is that you are derailing the thread and stopping other people from having a substantive conversation.

[Rafael Thundercat]

 

[Yousif]

Just like the U.S. you go ahead and self justify whatever you want, doing what the terrorist  Are doing is just more terrorism, Israel are following the steps of thr U.S. and will be just like the U.S. in the sense that everyone knows it’s the bad guy when it comes to the war in iraq, but the Americans keep being self centered, thinking they’re the good guys, ignore the millions they killed, but it will forever remain in their conscience until they take responsibility and change, you go ahead and believe whatever you want, no amount of talking will get you out of your self centered self, the only thing to do is let your conscience and your guilt sense Guide you to the truth, nobody can really help you but you.

 

 

[Yousif]

3 minutes ago, zurew said:

@Yousif Yeah as I thought, you have nothing of substance to contribute to any of the conflict - you are here to give platitudes (that everyone knows) and to virtue signal.

The problem with what you are doing is that you are derailing the thread and stopping other people from having a substantive conversation.

There’s no such a thing as substance, all there is is truth, which is what I’m speaking and you’re denying.

[Raze]

55 minutes ago, zurew said:

@Yousif without virtue signaling and rambling about non-duality can you give an exact, concise plan what should Israel do?

1. Stop the illegal occupation of the West Bank and give them a state, the PLO gave up violence long ago and they can agree to have a mutually agreed upon third party take over security, remove or at least start controlling the settlers who have murdered hundreds. A major reason why Palestinians continue to turn to violence is because Israel’s refusal for a two state solution and protecting settlers makes them see no future, this would remove that.

2. Start a cease fire in exchange for giving up Israel’s hostages in exchange for Hamas’s hostages, the war has killed dozens. And yes Israel has hostages, they legalized taking bargaining chips and hold hundreds of Palestinians without charges. https://www.amnesty.org/es/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/mde150541998en.pdf

Every country in the world except for Israel and the USA has called for a cease fire, not having one has so far killed dozens of Israeli hostages and over 13k children (this is the equivalent of how many people died on 9/11 x4.3 but in just children). Not to mention the blockade and aid restriction and risking famine / causing hundreds of children to undergo amputation without anesthesia. It is barbaric and risking triggering a much larger war.
 

3. Propose to Hamas to turn Gaza into a state and end the illegal blockade if they agree to put down their arms and let a mutually agreed upon third party take over security. If Hamas doesn’t agree they risk being overthrown by Gazans who now see a way out and see life improving in the West Bank.

4. Have war crime trials for the leadership on both sides with a unbiased mutually agreed upon third party court.

5. Iran proposed to turn the Middle East into a nuclear free zone, Israel should offer to take them up on it if they let Israel make a peace treaty with Hezbollah. Right now Israel is one of the biggest risks of triggering a nuclear conflict because they have uninspected nukes and have war risk with many border states.

Edited February 17 by Raze