Posted February 12 (edited) 1 hour ago, Vrubel said: I am not anti-Arab or anti-Islam. I had some tears in my eyes hearing the news of the rescued hostages, it was really uplifting to have that good news. Do you also have teary eyes when you see 12.000 dead? Curious 1 hour ago, Vrubel said: So there is definitely a bias here but the hostages deserve special status. Where is the special status for 80 year old grandmothers detained in Israel as "terrorists"? There were cases of that. They are as innocent as those hostages. 1 hour ago, Vrubel said: Hamas started this war and royally screwed over their people. That's an undeniable fact. Israel started this war by their wrong policies and not giving Palestinians equal rights. Plenty of Israelis including famous intellectuals have given their concerns over Israel policies. Do you expect people to be oppressed indefinitely and not revolt? You are basically going against all International human rights organizations that have criticized Israel's policies countless times. And I am talking about their policies before this recent war began. 1 hour ago, Vrubel said: While technically you can "understand" his invasion that doesn't mean shit if it was based for a large degree on delusion and paranoia. I do agree it is paranoia but we speak like this because we see the West and NATO as good. That is the issue. We do not see them as a threat. Try to see NATO as a threat and the invasion would make more sense. It is not that I support what Russia did. I was against it since day 1. But I do not see it any less "ethical" than USA invasion of Cuba, Libya or Iraq. So I cannot demonize Russia more than USA. But I dislike Russia, do not think I am a pro Russian guy. Not at all. They do tons of devilry. Yet so does USA. 1 hour ago, Vrubel said: But what else can Israel do, it must defeat Hamas completely and not leave some organized battalions in Rafah, which makes perfect sense from the military POV There are endless endless cases of war crimes which can be avoided. Snipers shooting close to 30 civilians in recent days being one of them. Shooting doctors working in hospitals, civilians inside cars etc. You can defeat Hamas and not do these atrocities. They are clearly fueled by hate not military logic. 1 hour ago, Vrubel said: Yeah, you can also understand why Hitler invaded Poland and gaslight Britain for declaring or provoking WW2. That would be really perverse and a total dishonor. Hitler wanted to raze Poland to the ground, make Warsaw nothing more than a small town with a train station and kill 80% of polish population. Generalplan Ost - Wikipedia Russia does not want to do any of those things. It just wants Ukraine to be another Belarus. That is wrong but different from pure genocide like Germany did against Poland. 1 hour ago, Vrubel said: Because there is a clear difference in the development and morality of Russians and Israelis. The hatred Israelis have towards Palestinians in Gaza is far greater than Russian towards Russians in Ukraine. If you actually see the tactics used are quite similar. Unfortunately they seem to kill far far more in Gaza due to density and lack of air defense/shelters in Gaza. But the actual tactics are basically the same. I can name them if you want but it would be a long list. 1 hour ago, Vrubel said: Israel constantly warns civilians to evacuate certain areas and by doing so gives up on certain military advantages like the element of surprise. It also bombs areas considered "safe". What is your excuse for that? If Gaza is razed to the ground in the end what matters? You do realize that is done simply for people like you to say "See Israel is not that bad". You think they actually care about civilians there? You know they now block humanitarian aid when Gaza is starving? Biden even said it in live tv he had to convice BiBi to allow humanitarian aid. And all considered, if Russia is so ruthless how come the death toll in Ukraine given the time frame and population is relatively low? I mean Serbia killed like 3x more civilians in Bosnia in the same time frame and Bosnia had 20x less people. Same in the Syrian war. Chechen war was also far more brutal for civilians. Honestly I would expect at least 100.000 civilian deaths in Ukraine at this point but it is around 11.000. Max 20.000. While military deaths are close to 100.000 now. In Syria or Bosnia it was a 50 50 ratio between soldier and civilians. Here it is like 5 to 10 times more soldiers. Edited February 12 by Karmadhi Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 12 (edited) 2 hours ago, Nivsch said: I didn't see anywhere that hamas agreed to release them before the ground operation. It doesnt make sense, it would erase their efforts overnight. Please find me a link that proves that. I sent you one from New York times. I send you another from CNN. "The framework of the proposal was agreed to by negotiators in Paris at the end of last month. CNN previously reported that it would call for a first phase of civilian hostage releases to take place over a six-week pause, with three Palestinian prisoners held by Israel released for each civilian hostage returned from Gaza. That ratio would be expected to go up for Israel Defense Forces soldiers and a longer pause is possible beyond the six weeks for the later phases." Hamas has replied to Gaza hostage proposal | CNN Politics Why did Israel not agree to this? 2 hours ago, Nivsch said: Israel didnt cause "far more" I disagree with that. Numbers and material damage says otherwise. Number of hostages Hamas has taken is far lower than the number of Palestinian kids in Israeli prisons through the decades. These are verifiable things you know. Also I do not see Palestine taking any territory from Israel in recent decades. Name me some Palestinian settlements at the expense of Israel land? 2 hours ago, Nivsch said: The Allied also did a tremendous damage to Germany. Most of civilian deaths and war crimes committed against Germany were done by USSR after the Nazis killed close to 27 million Soviets and 17 million civilians. They showed tons of restraint which I still find respectable. A lot of the bombings that the Allies did were to support USSR since they did not want to open a second front until 1944. 2 hours ago, Nivsch said: Nobody just kicked anyone out of the blue, in 1947 a totally civil war in its character has started and from then yes, its a whole Jungle. But Jews were almost only in deffence first until almost lost. Nakba - Wikipedia The Nakba (Arabic: النكبة an-Nakbah, lit. 'The Catastrophe') is the violent displacement and dispossession of Palestinians, along with the destruction of their society, culture, identity, political rights, and national aspirations. Sounds like devilry to me. 2 hours ago, Nivsch said: Also, displacement and building in your territory although problematic is still not even close to suicide bombing and being hostage in hamas tunnels Go and try to steal someone's home and see how they respond to that. In the USA, Israel biggest ally you will get shotguned in the face and the person that did it will not be legally charged since you are transpassing in their property. I would also argue a 12 year old kid spending the night in Israeli prisons outside in the cold is not much better than a Hamas tunnel. Lets not pretend Israel does not jail 20x more than Hamas kidnaps. I saw a report of a 84 year old woman detained in Israel jails. Is she also terrorist? Suicide bombing is indeed horrible, I cannot argue with that. 2 hours ago, Nivsch said: 2nd intifada started right after a decade long of signed agreements between Israelis and Palestinians supposed to give them a lot of hope. I am not an expert on that topic but I read that the Israeli negotiator said something like "If I was in Palestine place I would not agree to it myself". I will try to find the sources after. 2 hours ago, Nivsch said: The Palestinians physical area in the West Bank is much larger than central Israel due also to greater surface area due to the mountainy landscape by the way an another parameter I though about recently. Yet Israel does not want a Palestinian state even though the world including the west is saying it is the only solution. Personally I would say 1947 border would be the most fair split but I dont think it will happen. 1968 border it is then. BiBi does not accept that. Also you did not tell me any response regarding religion fueling Israel expansion. As a secular Isareli would like to hear your view on that. 🇮🇱 Israeli minister: The Bible says West Bank is ours - UpFront (youtube.com) This is the source of talk I despise the most from Israel. Using religious nonsense to justify devilry. Same people do not even allow DNA tests to check ancestry. Talk about "advanced society". Edited February 12 by Karmadhi Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 12 (edited) @Karmadhi Nobody destructed their society or culture. They could have became to like one of the Emirates. Israel has not searched any war at all and has invested on technology and on a smaller and smaller IDF (shorter and shorter service length for youngs) and was in a conception we won't need to enter Gaza. The naiveness of Israeli IDF commanders line of thinking has been broken in 7.10. Edited February 12 by Nivsch 🌲 You can rarely pretend to give an effective advice to someone just from the fact that you cannot see the unique inner logic behind his actions, no matter how obvious you will mistakenly think the answer is. If you really want to help and not to harm, encourage him to trust more his own logic. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 12 (edited) 13 minutes ago, zazen said: @zazen @Karmadhi thousands around the world have been suffering from nonstop secondary trauma just from watching the in-ground media coming from Gaza mostly shared on X, Instagram or TitTok and witnessing new levels of barbarism on a daily basis , yet no matter how much you argue or debate it just feels like it's all in futile, I guess the dehumanization of the other is just deeply ingrained. Edited February 12 by lina Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 12 (edited) @lina Without knowing the details in the cherry picked linktree I can answer in general that of course dehumanization will happen after such a trauma and the celebrations in Gaza in oct 7th and after 30 years of agreements and negotiations followed by only more terror. Start to see the whole dynamic rather than to blame almost only one side. Every western country would probably react the same when needed to eliminate a terror organization who mix itself together with civilians in Rafah but also everywhere in Gaza. Edited February 12 by Nivsch 🌲 You can rarely pretend to give an effective advice to someone just from the fact that you cannot see the unique inner logic behind his actions, no matter how obvious you will mistakenly think the answer is. If you really want to help and not to harm, encourage him to trust more his own logic. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 12 (edited) 30 minutes ago, Nivsch said: @lina Without knowing the details in the cherry picked linktree I can answer in general that of course dehumanization will happen after such a trauma and the celebrations in Gaza in oct 7th and after 30 years of agreements and negotiations followed by only more terror. Start to see the whole dynamic rather than to blame almost only one side. Every western country would probably react the same when needed to eliminate a terror organization who mix itself together with civilians in Rafah but also everywhere in Gaza. I am not going to argue about the celebration thing because many already did but there is just one thing to point out : If an armed soldier cannot control his emotions, restrain himself to not act out of vengeance and follow the international rules of war then maybe they are not really fit or qualified to hold arms and it shouldn't be surprising when they become the terrorist they're fighting. Edited February 12 by lina Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 12 41 minutes ago, Nivsch said: Without knowing the details in the cherry picked linktree I can answer in general that of course dehumanization will happen after such a trauma and the celebrations in Gaza in oct 7th and after 30 years of agreements and negotiations followed by only more terror. That is fair but an advanced society will understand that it does not justify to mass murder people, especially childreen. So it is not an excuse for this hatred. Especially against women and childreen. Issue is that when you send hundreds of such links and incidents it is not longer "cherry picking", it basically becomes the norm. Cherry picking is when you keep using the stories of 2-3 people like Israel does all the time. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 12 (edited) Nobody mass murders anyone. There are 10,000s terror targets to attack and the casualities are 15,000 civilians and ~10,000 hamas ratio of 1.5:1 that when fighting with cynical gerilla organization this is of course expected. Edited February 12 by Nivsch 🌲 You can rarely pretend to give an effective advice to someone just from the fact that you cannot see the unique inner logic behind his actions, no matter how obvious you will mistakenly think the answer is. If you really want to help and not to harm, encourage him to trust more his own logic. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 12 (edited) @Karmadhi They are cherry picked as long as they site almost only radical exremists like Gideon Levi and the like, and when they overlook the fair context and dynamics between the sides. Edited February 12 by Nivsch 🌲 You can rarely pretend to give an effective advice to someone just from the fact that you cannot see the unique inner logic behind his actions, no matter how obvious you will mistakenly think the answer is. If you really want to help and not to harm, encourage him to trust more his own logic. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 12 @lina The radical right-wing government we have for sure influences and worsen the collateral damage, but every western nation attacked like oct 7th would react very similarly. 🌲 You can rarely pretend to give an effective advice to someone just from the fact that you cannot see the unique inner logic behind his actions, no matter how obvious you will mistakenly think the answer is. If you really want to help and not to harm, encourage him to trust more his own logic. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 12 (edited) 4 hours ago, lina said: @zazen @Karmadhi thousands around the world have been suffering from nonstop secondary trauma just from watching the in-ground media coming from Gaza mostly shared on X, Instagram or TitTok and witnessing new levels of barbarism on a daily basis , yet no matter how much you argue or debate it just feels like it's all in futile, I guess the dehumanization of the other is just deeply ingrained. One would think it wrong not to speak on whats going on and share the suffering taking place - at least to show Israeli's a side they maybe aren't being shown on their media, or to illicit a reaction to their states actions being wrong. The common response is these are bad apples and cherries being picked, but for a small country with a small population it seems to be a awful lot of bad cherries being picked continuously for many months now. There seems to exist a deep systemic dehumanization that needs to be brought to light. For a country that is on trial for Genocide and under the watchful the eye of the world to continue their actions and also speak in genocidal ways signals something clearly wrong. The fact that the West is complicit in this should make everyone question where power lies and how the world really works. How can these 'cherries' not know they have a follow up ICJ hearing later this week: Only a culture that breeds entitlement and believes in its impunity can act out in such a way. The US raised a naughty child and this is the result of not being held to account for decades on end. @Nivsch The fact that you see Gideon Levy as extreme - is actually extreme to most Westerners. This shows that Israel doesn't have a political left any more, it only has a right, far right and extreme far right. The center of gravity has moved totally right at least in terms of foreign policy and attitude towards Palestinians. Israel being more LGBT friendly doesn't make it okay to just bomb a captive population of 2 million. American culture that contains twerk dancing and drag shows for children doesn't mean what they do beyond their borders is any good either. Whether it was a Western country or a Eastern one I would equally criticize both. Edited February 12 by zazen Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 12 8 hours ago, Nivsch said: I heard Chris Hedges lecture in the blog and it made zero impression on me and totally biased and emotional and naively blame gaming and profoundly failing to understand Israel's roots and essence. Same. He never even mentions October 7th and how Hamas's goal is world wide Jewish genocide. Isreal also doesn't deliberately target civilians but, Hamas definitely does. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 12 @zazen 2 hours ago, zazen said: One would think it wrong not to speak on whats going on and share the suffering taking place - at least to show Israeli's a side they maybe aren't being shown on their media, or to illicit a reaction to their states actions being wrong. The common response is these are bad apples and cherries being picked, but for a small country with a small population it seems to be a awful lot of bad cherries being picked continuously for many months now. There seems to exist a deep systemic dehumanization that needs to be brought to light. For a country that is on trial for Genocide and under the watchful the eye of the world to continue their actions and also speak in genocidal ways signals something clearly wrong. The fact that the West is complicit in this should make everyone question where power lies and how the world really works. How can these 'cherries' not know they have a follow up ICJ hearing later this week: Only a culture that breeds entitlement and believes in its impunity can act out in such a way. The US raised a naughty child and this is the result of not being held to account for decades on end. @Nivsch The fact that you see Gideon Levy as extreme - is actually extreme to most Westerners. This shows that Israel doesn't have a political left any more, it only has a right, far right and extreme far right. The center of gravity has moved totally right at least in terms of foreign policy and attitude towards Palestinians. Israel being more LGBT friendly doesn't make it okay to just bomb a captive population of 2 million. American culture that contains twerk dancing and drag shows for children doesn't mean what they do beyond their borders is any good either. Whether it was a Western country or a Eastern one I would equally criticize both. I agree here. Definitely the political spectrum and political center of gravity in Israel has shifted to the right much more than the middle. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 13 17 hours ago, Revolutionary Think said: Same. He never even mentions October 7th and how Hamas's goal is world wide Jewish genocide. Isreal also doesn't deliberately target civilians but, Hamas definitely does. 👍 Definitely 🌲 You can rarely pretend to give an effective advice to someone just from the fact that you cannot see the unique inner logic behind his actions, no matter how obvious you will mistakenly think the answer is. If you really want to help and not to harm, encourage him to trust more his own logic. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 13 On 2/12/2024 at 4:05 AM, Nivsch said: profoundly failing to understand Israel's roots and essence. There’s a profound failing in understanding the root and essence of all conflicts. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 14 (edited) On 2/12/2024 at 7:10 PM, Revolutionary Think said: Same. He never even mentions October 7th and how Hamas's goal is world wide Jewish genocide. Isreal also doesn't deliberately target civilians but, Hamas definitely does. Both sides want to wipe the other side out, but the difference is that Israel is actually doing it while Hamas is just wishful thinking. 800 civilians dead is not genocide, not even close. It is a massacre and those can happen in war. Terrible but common. 30.000 civilians dead, well that is crossing the line for 21st century standards. A simple question you need to answer to yourself. If Israel had killed roughly 800 civilians in Gaza, just like Hamas did. Would people be hating on Israel so much? I dont think so. This thread would not have 400 pages either. Israel killing 30x is the issue here. It makes 7/10 seem like nothing in comparison. Scale matters. Get this through your head. Edited February 14 by Karmadhi Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 15 (edited) On 2/12/2024 at 1:10 PM, Revolutionary Think said: Same. He never even mentions October 7th and how Hamas's goal is world wide Jewish genocide. Isreal also doesn't deliberately target civilians but, Hamas definitely does. 1. That isn’t Hamas’s goal, their charter used to call for the end of Israel but no longer does, it never officially called for worldwide Jewish genocide 2. Israel has killed a much higher ratio of civilians to combatants than hamas, and many times more civilians. So Hamas targets civilians but ends up killing less per combatant and Israel only targets combatants but ends up killing way more civilians? Edited February 15 by Raze Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 15 On 2/12/2024 at 9:24 AM, Nivsch said: Nobody mass murders anyone. There are 10,000s terror targets to attack and the casualities are 15,000 civilians and ~10,000 hamas ratio of 1.5:1 that when fighting with cynical gerilla organization this is of course expected. 16,000 of the dead are women and children. If these numbers of Hamas are real, that would mean every single man killed and some of the women or children were all hamas. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
