Posted February 10 @zazen 7 hours ago, zazen said: Ex colonizers should think why the majority of the world don't think like them. At least some colonial states like Portugal and Spain have evolved past that paradigm and recognize wrong from right in the current era. If someone comes out and says clearly who is more in the wrong in a situation - the assumption is that they are biased. But it could also be that even someone who did their best to view a situation objectively with fresh baby eyes and minimal bias comes to the same conclusion of who is more of the aggressor, instigator and oppressive party in a situation. There are other reasons why people don't come out and say who is wrong in a situation - maybe cowardice from the consequences, lack of interest in debating the issue, lack of knowledge or just that they don't wish to alienate the other side as the other side usually takes criticism as condescension and hostility. Fortifying dignity, liberation and self-determination are non-negotiable to people, that's why they're called inalienable rights - it isn't some gift from the oppressor that rewards the oppressed if they behave well like pavlovs dog. Dignity removes the boot of oppression from the neck, liberation allows the freedom to stand on ones feet and move, and self determination allows the people to choose the path they walk. Those who oppose any of these or denies them to a people becomes their oppressor and can expect resistance, even armed resistance. If those people become liberated and choose to oppress another people, the same mechanism that applied to their original oppressor now applies to them. That's true to a degree. Even in Scandinavia's or Sweden's history they have to be Vikings and do the slaving and pillaging first before they grow past all that. Very hard to be that one higher consciousness Viking when most of your clan's built a culture around all that, and took many wars and skirmishes, and organized religion to program that out of them. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 11 11 hours ago, Nivsch said: Ireland should ask itself why the rest of Europe don't think like her and grow up It is not just Ireland. Also Norway, Belgium etc have supported Palestine quite decently. Countries like France, Germany and especially UK are historical genocidal warmongering colonizers so I do not expect much national empathy towards these stuff. Hard to call an ex murdered and thief to feel empathy. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 11 14 hours ago, Vrubel said: Irish have a blindspot for terror because they did some batshit evil terrorism on innocent people in London. Though there are also things about Ireland I respect, they are definitely more chill and developed than Palestinians. If it was the Israeli Irish conflict I would not have minded a one state solution. I can flip the script and say France, UK, Germany have a blindspot for colonization, ethnic cleansing and genocide because they did some batshit evil stuff on innocent non Europeans for centuries in the past. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 11 @Nivsch 12 hours ago, Nivsch said: @Karmadhi Ireland should ask itself why the rest of Europe don't think like her and grow up 😝 Simple, Ireland was conquered and subjugated first by Vikings, then by GB, and part of it fell under GB rulership, then the whole catholic vs Protestants. Long history of conflict there too, with generational trauma. They, just like South Africa, know what that's like when a people's is humiliated generational. Same 2ith Mongolia and the Russ. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 11 12 hours ago, Danioover9000 said: @Nivsch Or it's difficult to sit on the fences when clearly in one situation one side is more wrong that the other? Also, how does one do themselves a dopamine message? Even a US court has ruled the findings of plausible case for Genocide as valid now. https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/01/genocide-gaza-israel-california-court Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 11 9 hours ago, Karmadhi said: I can flip the script and say France, UK, Germany have a blindspot for colonization, ethnic cleansing and genocide because they did some batshit evil stuff on innocent non Europeans for centuries in the past. That's not a fair assessment. You just mush in everything into your narrative damn the nuances and genuine understanding, no surprises here. Ireland is exceptionally reactionary and dogmatic due to their history which leads them to do stupid things like humiliate little Irish hostage girl and other cringe and shameful things. Scandinavian countries are different they will naturally be more naive due to their wealth, small populations and being located in a very developed and safe region of the world. However, I do believe Sweden and Denmark have a more pro-Israel government. For most countries (also Spain and Belgium) it comes down to where the pendulum has swung at the moment. Spanish and Belgian opposition are more understanding and supportive of Israel. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 11 (edited) @Vrubel I can tell you care far more for Israeli dead civilians and hostaged over Palestinian dead civilians and hostages though. Can I ask why? Are you anti Arab or anti Islam? Just curious Also since you shame me about lacking nuance, i can also say the same about you when it comes to the Ukranian war. From what i saw in comments you tend to ignore the Russian survival agenda and just blindly support Ukraine while ignoring all the nuance in the conflict. Nuances Leo has often brought over. Why are you more grounded and cold calculating in this war over the Ukrainain war? I mean that war is far more conventional and less civilian suffering so it is easier to analyze it with more objectively and less emotion. I am just asking not accusing you of anything. For some reason you seem bit more personally involved in that war while in Israel palestine war you keep a more grounded pragmatic pov, which I cannot keep unfortunately. Edited February 11 by Karmadhi Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 11 I see many LGBTQ support Arab countries and don’t understand that they couldn’t live there for more than 2 days. Yemen: 13 Sentenced to Public Execution for Homosexuality https://www.mambaonline.com/2024/02/10/yemen-13-sentenced-to-public-execution-for-homosexuality/ Sometimes you need to ask yourself, which side of history would you want to be in? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 11 (edited) 13 hours ago, Heaven said: I see many LGBTQ support Arab countries and don’t understand that they couldn’t live there for more than 2 days. Yemen: 13 Sentenced to Public Execution for Homosexuality https://www.mambaonline.com/2024/02/10/yemen-13-sentenced-to-public-execution-for-homosexuality/ Sometimes you need to ask yourself, which side of history would you want to be in? Sure, when they don't really know Israel and don't really know Palestine and the differences between them, this what happens. Edited February 12 by Nivsch 🌲 You can rarely pretend to give an effective advice to someone just from the fact that you cannot see the unique inner logic behind his actions, no matter how obvious you will mistakenly think the answer is. If you really want to help and not to harm, encourage him to trust more his own logic. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 11 (edited) 22 hours ago, Danioover9000 said: @Nivsch Or it's difficult to sit on the fences when clearly in one situation one side is more wrong that the other? No. It is just that one chooses to define one side as the "understood" (emphaty) and the second side as the "responsible". This is a completely arbitrary decision stems from emotions and personal preferences. And after choosing that, he or she confuses this with "reality". But in (real) reality both sides can be understood if you learn their psychology enough, and both of them are responsible. Edited February 11 by Nivsch 🌲 You can rarely pretend to give an effective advice to someone just from the fact that you cannot see the unique inner logic behind his actions, no matter how obvious you will mistakenly think the answer is. If you really want to help and not to harm, encourage him to trust more his own logic. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 11 3 minutes ago, Nivsch said: No. It is just that one chooses to define one side as the "understood" (emphaty) and the second side as the "responsible". Yes, the oppressor and oppressed framework mistaken for reality. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 12 Very powerful speech by the wise Mosab Hassan Yousef Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 12 @Heaven Tonight two hostages were rescued by IDF. Only now I read it. From Hell to home. 🌲 You can rarely pretend to give an effective advice to someone just from the fact that you cannot see the unique inner logic behind his actions, no matter how obvious you will mistakenly think the answer is. If you really want to help and not to harm, encourage him to trust more his own logic. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 12 @lina and plenty of screaming from both Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 12 (edited) 1 hour ago, Nivsch said: Tonight two hostages were rescued by IDF. Only now I read it. From Hell to home. At the cost of 70-100 civilians including young children's from what I saw. That many were killed in recent bombings in Rahaf. Can you tell me if they care about their hostages so much why did their president reject Hamas offer to end the fighting at the expense of releasing all the hostages? Feels to me like their goal now is to cleanse Gaza and build settlements there with their new operation to Rahaf instead of "releasing hostages" only. Hamas has been crippled at this point. It is childish to believe they have the power to carry out another powerful October 7th style attack in Israel. And their main leadership lives safely in other countries so no matter what you do in Gaza they will not be affected. Edited February 12 by Karmadhi Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 12 (edited) @Karmadhi Of course hamas will fully recover in the course of 2-3 years if Israel won't finish him. About the casualities, this is the harsh reality of the dynamic of war between two sides when one of them reject all the peace offeres gave to him and caused Israelis a 30 years long trauma. You can say "but the settlements" and yes we also have our responsiblilty and Bibi is also an obstacle to peace. Would it be enough even if we did everything right? Highly doubt it. Israel very existance causes a religious short circuit in the mind of fundamentalist Muslims that maybe really nothing would help. I heard Chris Hedges lecture in the blog and it made zero impression on me and totally biased and emotional and naively blame gaming and profoundly failing to understand Israel's roots and essence. Edited February 12 by Nivsch 🌲 You can rarely pretend to give an effective advice to someone just from the fact that you cannot see the unique inner logic behind his actions, no matter how obvious you will mistakenly think the answer is. If you really want to help and not to harm, encourage him to trust more his own logic. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 12 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Nivsch said: About the casualities, this is the harsh reality of the dynamic of war between two sides when one of them reject all the peace offeres gave to him and caused Israelis a 30 years long trauma. Firstly Hamas did give you a peace offer and you get all the hostages back but Bibi refused it. So lets not pretend that Israel wants peace at the moment. Hamas gives ‘positive’ reply to proposal for hostage release deal - The Washington Post Palestine definitely has caused pain and suffering to Israelis. However Israel has caused far far more pain and trauma to Palestinians. I did not see Palestinians take land and kick out Israelis. The death toll, especially civilian is always 20x more on Palestinian side. Not to mention destruction. So scale matters here. Issue with you Pro Israelis is that you downplay Palestinian suffering while overhyping Israeli suffering. Issue is that simple facts reject that reality. Civilian death toll, land ownership via illegal settlements and material destruction are literal things you can see with your own eyes. Give me 1 reason why 1 day people in the West Bank should not gather and kick out and burn all the illegal settlements in there for example. Funny thing if they did that then they would be labeled terrorists in your eyes. And everyone outside Israel supporting it would be labeled anti Semetic and a Jew hater. See how this works. Fundamental issue here I noticed when I saw some old interviews with Nafati Bennet and other Israelis is that they claim all the land there is theirs and their "proof" is religious Jewish holy book. Issue is that in 2024, we do not go with religious holy books in determining such important matters. Religious arguments are as valid as toilet paper. I can also claim Quran or Bible say this and that and lets change the world now again. Ironically the thing that would be the most "objective" would be DNA tests to determine someone's origin but DNA tests are not allowed in Israel. Why so? Israel devilry is fueled by religious propaganda. I am sure most secular Israelis have a much more objective approach on this matter. Which is why they often oppose these religious ideologues that seem to often govern Israel and dictate its policies. This is not me on hating on Israel for say. Iran does the same. Its just that we got no pro Iranian government people here so I do not need to write lengthy essays on Iran's goverenemnt devilry. Edited February 12 by Karmadhi Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 12 (edited) 17 hours ago, Karmadhi said: I can tell you care far more for Israeli dead civilians and hostaged over Palestinian dead civilians and hostages though. Can I ask why? Are you anti Arab or anti Islam? Just curious I am not anti-Arab or anti-Islam. I had some tears in my eyes hearing the news of the rescued hostages, it was really uplifting to have that good news. At the same time, I also painfully realize many young Israeli soldiers died who had their whole life before them. So there is definitely a bias here but the hostages deserve special status. Regarding Palestinian causalities, I in a sense agree with Biden that it is over the top. But what else can Israel do, it must defeat Hamas completely and not leave some organized battalions in Rafah, which makes perfect sense from the military POV. Hamas started this war and royally screwed over their people. That's an undeniable fact. 17 hours ago, Karmadhi said: Also since you shame me about lacking nuance, i can also say the same about you when it comes to the Ukranian war. From what i saw in comments you tend to ignore the Russian survival agenda and just blindly support Ukraine while ignoring all the nuance in the conflict. Nuances Leo has often brought over. Don't take it personally. Anti-Israel hive minds are incredibly unintellectual and self-defeating in nature. When it comes to understanding Russia. You must factor in the rash opportunism, overconfidence and Paranoia that went into his decision to invade. While technically you can "understand" his invasion that doesn't mean shit if it was based for a large degree on delusion and paranoia. Also, the ill-intent and blatant aggression even atrocities toward Ukrainians is not exactly an "understandable" thing. Yeah, you can also understand why Hitler invaded Poland and gaslight Britain for declaring or provoking WW2. That would be really perverse and a total dishonor. 17 hours ago, Karmadhi said: @Vrubel Why are you more grounded and cold calculating in this war over the Ukrainain war? I mean that war is far more conventional and less civilian suffering so it is easier to analyze it with more objectively and less emotion. I am just asking not accusing you of anything. For some reason you seem bit more personally involved in that war while in Israel palestine war you keep a more grounded pragmatic pov, which I cannot keep unfortunately. Because there is a clear difference in the development and morality of Russians and Israelis. It is just that Israel is forced to fight a war in an environment that will inevitably produce a lot of civilian casualties. Israel has to clear out hospitals, schools and UN buildings because they are soaked in Hamas infrastructure and fighters. Russia bombs hospitals as a blatant attempt to simply bring pain to Ukrainians in the hope it will demoralize them. Israel constantly warns civilians to evacuate certain areas and by doing so gives up on certain military advantages like the element of surprise. 17 hours ago, Karmadhi said: For some reason you seem bit more personally involved in that war while in Israel palestine war you keep a more grounded pragmatic pov, which I cannot keep unfortunately. I am emotionally and intellectually involved in both wars, you're just emotionally involved. Which is fine but it closes you off to some good things and opens you up to a whole rabbit hole of bad and ugly things. Edited February 12 by Vrubel Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 12 (edited) @Karmadhi from top to down: I didn't see anywhere that hamas agreed to release them before the ground operation. It doesnt make sense, it would erase their efforts overnight. Please find me a link that proves that. Israel didnt cause "far more" I disagree with that. Also the context is important if not the most important thing. The Allied also did a tremendous damage to Germany. Nobody just kicked anyone out of the blue, in 1947 a totally civil war in its character has started and from then yes, its a whole Jungle. But Jews were almost only in deffence first until almost lost. Also, displacement and building in your territory although problematic is still not even close to suicide bombing and being hostage in hamas tunnels. 2nd intifada started right after a decade long of signed agreements between Israelis and Palestinians supposed to give them a lot of hope. The Palestinians physical area in the West Bank is much larger than central Israel due also to greater surface area due to the mountainy landscape by the way an another parameter I though about recently. Edited February 12 by Nivsch 🌲 You can rarely pretend to give an effective advice to someone just from the fact that you cannot see the unique inner logic behind his actions, no matter how obvious you will mistakenly think the answer is. If you really want to help and not to harm, encourage him to trust more his own logic. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
