New War In Israel / Gaza

[Karmadhi]

7 hours ago, Nivsch said:

Israelis are no different in their mentality and development than the average of New York, California and Texas. And if you think they are, your view is highly deluded and you are not in a stable position to do a higher resolution discussion about the conflict.

The average moderate Israeli yes. The hardcore Orthodox Jews are not. 

[Nivsch]

6 hours ago, Heaven said:

These pro Palestinians are like a broken record. They will say whatever they can do make Israel look bad.. Sometimes it feels to me like they are bots.

They highly ignore the spread of hate towards the Jews and the effect it has worldwide. Antisemitism is climbing and Jews around the world get attacked.

They ignore the basics. Schooling right now in Gaza and the West Bank are teaching children about Hitler and brain wash their minds to die as a Shaheed (In their teachings it’s to kill Israelis). 
Palestinians state with the current authority will be a disaster. Admit it. 

I really understand you. This is frustrating.

They don't understand that 90% of Israeli Jews are westerners in all of their facets. Mentality, education and everything.

[Karmadhi]

6 hours ago, Heaven said:

They highly ignore the spread of hate towards the Jews and the effect it has worldwide. Antisemitism is climbing and Jews around the world get attacked.

Yes that is sad. Many Jews around the world are being victim to it for no reason. Issue is Israel and their horrible policies not Jews living outside Israel. To show you how wrong Israel is here, many many Jews that live outside Israel have openly protested about the war. 

6 hours ago, Heaven said:

They ignore the basics. Schooling right now in Gaza and the West Bank are teaching children about Hitler and brain wash their minds to die as a Shaheed (In their teachings it’s to kill Israelis). 
Palestinians state with the current authority will be a disaster. Admit it. 

Well you also ignore the basics that lead people to have such views. Arabs did not worthship Hitler before Israeli terrible policies. Jews and Arabs lived at peace for centuries. There was none of this hate. Their hate came from a source. The source are those policies. The hate will not disappear until the policies change. Start talking some responsability.

[Karmadhi]

6 hours ago, Heaven said:

There is a huge difference between abusing women because it’s inherent in your religion than some random acts of insanity.

And Judaism  claims non Jews are inherently lesser than Gentiles, it is inherent in the  religion too. Islam is more developed than classic Judaism. Mostly because it came later and built up on previous religions. Judaism was the first and therefore the least developed. I am not shitting on it per say since most people do not practice it but I find it extremely dangerous, compared to the other 2. The reason people find it "ok" is because so few actually practice it hardcore compared to other religions.

And I am personally none of them. 

[zazen]

@Karmadhi Yeah, every religion can be taken and perverted. Some more than others depending on what their texts contain and the conciousness reading them as you mentioned and outlined nicely. Judaism seems oriented around a people, Christianity around the fact that man is god (though they took this more literally than metaphorically that we all contain God essence / Christ consciousness), Islam went beyond ethnicity and claimed God is a all encompassing unity beyond the form of gender and genetics. Its conception of God is a more accurate map of the reality of God.

How religion is used can definitely influence the psyche and help normalize certain behaviors, mixed in with the ideology of nationality. For example the following:

''Investigation by Haaretz reveals not only that the Israeli military is covertly running a racist, genocide-promoting social media account, 72 Virgins, but that the military lied when challenged about its involvement. A typical post shows a video of an Israeli military vehicle driving backwards and forwards over a Palestinian with the excited caption: 'Run him over run him over!!!! Screw the bastards! Flatten them.' The Haaretz report can read here: https://archive.ph/DqeYw ''

The claim that just because a certain society allows more freedom for gay people to openly show public displays of affection or that women aren't shamed for sleeping around - that this allows them to be given more of a free pass in committing massacres is irrelevant and indefensible. 

Edited February 9 by zazen

[Nivsch]

20 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

 Well you also ignore the basics that lead people to have such views. Arabs did not worthship Hitler before Israeli terrible policies. Jews and Arabs lived at peace for centuries. There was none of this hate. Their hate came from a source. The source are those policies. The hate will not disappear until the policies change. Start talking some responsability.

The responsibility is mutual and intertwined to a gordian knot between the sides. Every side need to work on his own.

But this isn't the game being played here in this forum and we aren't stupid.

[Karmadhi]

26 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

The responsibility is mutual and intertwined to a gordian knot between the sides. Every side need to work on his own.

Fair. Cannot disagree with that. Palestine definetly needs leadership better than Hamas. Leadership conductive to peace. So does Israel.

[hundreth]

22 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

@zazen The issue with Zionism is that it glorifies hardcore Judaism which is a toxic genocidal racist ideology. No issue with moderate Jews but Judaism unlike Christiniaty and Islam is fundamentally racist and genocidal.

Since it was the first religion, it is the least developed and Christinity and Islam which came after corrected a lot of its flaws.

For example Christianity says "All are equal before God", in Judaism basically Jews are superior and the rest should serve them (Racism).

In Islam it is not allowed to kill women and childreen, in Judaism genocide is  embraced when  it comes to protecting Jews (Seed of Amalek).

This is the issue with Zionism, it builds on this ideology/religion which can cause atrocities and apartheid (like it is happening currently).

Note: No issues with moderate Jews. I think most Israelis are secular Jews, here I am talking about hardcore religious people.

This information I got from recently reading Yuvan noah harari s work.

Way to be blatantly antisemitic, ignorant and delusional. 

If you're going to criticize the dark sides of religions, critique all of them on the same grounds. To state that Judaism specifically is x, y, z while the others are not is wild... and just shows your underlying framework of hate.

[Karmadhi]

@hundreth Other religions are more evolved since they came later. Also most of the issues with them come from bad practice not the religion being inherently racist.

You can argue Islam is inherently mysogonistic by today standards

[Danioover9000]

@Nivsch

14 hours ago, Nivsch said:

Israelis are no different in their mentality and development than the average of New York, California and Texas. And if you think they are, your view is highly deluded and you are not in a stable position to do a higher resolution discussion about the conflict.

   Sure, but isn't the key difference in terms of morality and other lines of development, is the government and rulership of Israel compared to the government and rulership of local NYC government, up to the USA's government? It's clearly from Israel a bit more right wing than NYC or USA, at least with Zionism it's far more right wing in Israel's rulership than with NYC right? And this is just within government and rulership, not the general society of Israel to NYC, don't jump context.

[Vrubel]

@Danioover9000 Just like in America and most democratic countries the pendulum in Israel swings from right to left and back. The PM before Netanyahu was Olmert, who was leftwing, before that Ariel Sharon, who was rightwing before that Ehud Barak who was leftwing, Netanyahu again, Then Peres and Rabin, both left wing. Most if not all of the leftwing PM's made genuine peace proposals to Palestinians. 

What makes Israelis more rightwing is terror attacks which are basically gifts to Israeli settlers. They then feel that they are fighting terror/evil by building more houses and that they obviously have the moral high ground against blind murderers of civilians. The irony is that the most fringe and extreme Israeli settlers are deeply inspired by Palestinian culture. 

[Karmadhi]

@Vrubel I think if the whole West gave Israel the same treatment Ireland is giving Israel currently (you can google it for details), this would be solved.

I think it shows a lot that the country in Europe that went through colonialism, ethnic cleansing, oppression and even genocide, Ireland, is one of the few ones that support Palestine.

While countries that have oppressed, colonized and commited genocide themselves like the UK and France support Israel.

Shows a ton.

Edited February 10 by Karmadhi

[Danioover9000]

@Vrubel

26 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

@Danioover9000 Just like in America and most democratic countries the pendulum in Israel swings from right to left and back. The PM before Netanyahu was Olmert, who was leftwing, before that Ariel Sharon, who was rightwing before that Ehud Barak who was leftwing, Netanyahu again, Then Peres and Rabin, both left wing. Most if not all of the leftwing PM's made genuine peace proposals to Palestinians. 

What makes Israelis more rightwing is terror attacks which are basically gifts to Israeli settlers. They then feel that they are fighting terror/evil by building more houses and that they obviously have the moral high ground against blind murderers of civilians. The irony is that the most fringe and extreme Israeli settlers are deeply inspired by Palestinian culture. 

   So basically they're more right wing than NYC local government?

   Blind murderers of civilians?

[Vrubel]

9 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

I think if the whole West gave Israel the same treatment Ireland is giving Israel currently (you can google it for details), this would be solved.

I know many Irish are blindly reactionary and dogmatic about Israel. They even humiliated their own citizen, the precious little girl Emily who was brutally kidnapped, held hostage all alone and released in the deal. They said she was “lost and found” as if she went missing in a mall.

Their government is weird and said that Ireland is “too white”… yeah… Subsidize tanning booths I guess. 

When a innocent little girl and mother got stabbed in Dublin by a Muslim. All of their attention went to demonizing the concerned people as far right extremists.

Irish have a blindspot for terror because they did some batshit evil terrorism on innocent people in London. Though there are also things about Ireland I respect, they are definitely more chill and developed than Palestinians. If it was the Israeli Irish conflict I would not have minded a one state solution.

 

9 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Vrubel

   So basically they're more right wing than NYC local government?

   Blind murderers of civilians?

Even most Israeli settlers are moderate and model citizens. The media just will never show you this. It doesn’t fit the narrative, it’s easier to demonize. 

[Nivsch]

@Karmadhi Ireland should ask itself why the rest of Europe don't think like her and grow up 😝

Edited February 10 by Nivsch

[zazen]

Ex colonizers should think why the majority of the world don't think like them. At least some colonial states like Portugal and Spain have evolved past that paradigm and recognize wrong from right in the current era. If someone comes out and says clearly who is more in the wrong in a situation - the assumption is that they are biased. But it could also be that even someone who did their best to view a situation objectively with fresh baby eyes and minimal bias comes to the same conclusion of who is more of the aggressor, instigator and oppressive party in a situation. 

There are other reasons why people don't come out and say who is wrong in a situation - maybe cowardice from the consequences, lack of interest in debating the issue, lack of knowledge or just that they don't wish to alienate the other side as the other side usually takes criticism as condescension and hostility.

Fortifying dignity, liberation and self-determination are non-negotiable to people, that's why they're called inalienable rights - it isn't some gift from the oppressor that rewards the oppressed if they behave well like pavlovs dog.

Dignity removes the boot of oppression from the neck, liberation allows the freedom to stand on ones feet and move, and self determination allows the people to choose the path they walk. Those who oppose any of these or denies them to a people becomes their oppressor and can expect resistance, even armed resistance. If those people become liberated and choose to oppress another people, the same mechanism that applied to their original oppressor now applies to them.

[Vrubel]

@zazen Pampering and romanticizing "violent resistance" produces situations like the one we are seeing now. 

[lina]

On 2/6/2024 at 3:22 PM, Nivsch said:

But to draw this with only dark colors and to overlook hamas and Palestinians responsibility is an extremely biased approach he comes from and Owen nodded to with his head with that passion on his body language because it serves his anti Israeli emotional agenda.

Yes I agree he might have some biases possibly because of some personal experiences he went through but overall I think he referred to some points that are worth contemplating regarding his criticism on Zionism and what really fuels antisemitism. 

5 hours ago, Vrubel said:

Though there are also things about Ireland I respect, they are definitely more chill and developed than Palestinians. If it was the Israeli Irish conflict I would not have minded a one state solution.

When I read this comment I imagined being a Palestinian and wondered what sort of reaction they would have towards such thinking, I mean considering that some of them took in refugees in their own homes back before 1948.

Speaking of level of development, are you exposed to in ground Gaza media? Like real footage and first hand personal reports what's happening there. I'm seriously curious to know the answer. 

   

Edited February 10 by lina

[Nivsch]

22 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Vrubel

   So basically they're more right wing than NYC local government?

   Blind murderers of civilians?

There is no intentional murder of civilians here at all.

Not even close.

I can agree about some sort of collective punishment (intentional more or less) and about the influence of the far-right wing government we have now on the degree of the damage in Gaza.

But honestly every western country would react pretty much the same with minor changes.

The preaching I see in videos including in the video on Israel in Leo's blog are not make any impression on me. When you don't acknowledge the equal responsibility the both sides have to the dynamics of the conflict than you are not fair and just moralizing and doing yourself a dopamine massage.

Edited February 10 by Nivsch

[Danioover9000]

@Nivsch

59 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

There is no intentional murder of civilians here at all.

Not even close.

I can agree about some sort of collective punishment (intentional more or less) and about the influence of the far-right wing government we have now on the degree of the damage in Gaza.

But honestly every western country would react pretty much the same with minor changes.

The preaching I see in videos including in Leo blog are not make any impression on me. When you don't acknowledge the equal responsibility the both sides have to the dynamics of the conflict than you are not fair and just moralizing and doing yourself a dopamine massage.

   Or it's difficult to sit on the fences when clearly in one situation one side is more wrong that the other?

   Also, how does one do themselves a dopamine message?