New War In Israel / Gaza

[Karmadhi]

7 hours ago, Heaven said:

Lol your mind was able to justify Hamas actions and you say that Israelis are inhumane

Not justify, you seem not to be able to read. I said it was bad.

But what Israel has done and is doing is far worse.

What is interesting is that Israel has historically killed far more Palestinians than Palestinians have killed Israelis. 

Yet Palestinians are supposed to be chill with it.

But when Palestinians inflict 1/10 of that back to Israelis, they are ok with ethnic cleansing and genociding them.

This alone shows how egotistical they truly are.

In 2014 alone Israel killed far more Gazans than Hamas ever did.

Why do you ignore this?

Edited February 8 by Karmadhi

[Nivsch]

@Heaven But the anti-Israel side here is attached emotionally to the palestinians. point. No matter what you will say against them, they will always be seen, through the anti-israeli filter here, as the under developed kid who just want to fight for his rights and by that logic they will always symphatize with them no matter how violent and animalistic they will be. Convincing is impossible. Only the more centrist quiet readers here can be somehow convinced.

Edited February 8 by Nivsch

[Karmadhi]

3 hours ago, Nivsch said:

no matter how violent and animalistic they will be

There is a photo circulating online that has been called "deeply disturbing" by USA of a totally naked Palestinian guy tied to a chair and a IDF soldier is standing in front of him holding a spear (from what I could see). He has a wound on his leg (evidence of torture).

Can you explain to me how this is justifiable? 

EVEN if he is Hamas staff this is totally barbaric and inhumane. Civilized world does not torture POWs and proudly take pictures of it and broadcast it to the world. And we do not even know if he is Hamas.

Under all international laws not only torture of POWs is illegal but proudly broadcasting it to the world shows that IDF is not much different from Hamas at this point.

Hamas also tortured people and then broadcasted it proudly.

And this is 1 case that was actually published.

Imagine the dozens and dozens of non published ones.

Just see it for yourself, it is really distrubing.

I remember leo said once that torture shows the level of development of a country. Highly developed countries do not torture people. Apparently Israel is not much better than Russia at this point. They even proudly show it. Baffling.

Edited February 8 by Karmadhi

[Nivsch]

@Karmadhi without even see it I choose to believe you and there are crap soldiers and bad husbands and bad human beings everywhere.

You won't think differently anyway. No need to prove you anything.

Edited February 8 by Nivsch

[zazen]

On 2/6/2024 at 8:14 AM, lina said:

Basically no evidence has been found.

Should be terrifying to Westerners that the elites of their very own 'democracy' are capable of such heartless actions. What happened to innocent till proven guilty and even if found guilty - the proportionate persecution of the wrong doers, not the whole organisation. By that logic many Western institutions should be de-funded, boycotted by the world and dismantled for the actions of the few glorified gangsters in black suits that are among them ie collective punishment.

Israel and its allies successfully moved the conversation from 'a plausible case of genocide ruled by the top world court' to 'we'll cut off aid to the most aid-dependent population who have nowhere to flee and who have just been ruled to be under a plausible genocide - all because of unsubstantiated claims by a state that has been proven to lie many times before'. 

 

[Karmadhi]

27 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

without even see it I choose to believe you and there are crap soldiers and bad husbands and bad human beings everywhere.

You won't think differently anyway. No need to prove you anything.

Issue is that this devilry in Israel does not go punished. A civilized country would punish and make an example out of this. In Israel it does not happen.

Hard for it to be punished when half the government are right wing fascists'. 

Moderate Israelis like yourself cannot do anything, Ben Gvir can.

That is the issue.

Also I can make the same argument that within 2.2 million Gazans there are couple thousands which are radical savages that kill people and torture them. Yet Palestinians are all called terrorists now.

Edited February 8 by Karmadhi

[zazen]

Honey, I'm home.

BREAKING: Netanyahu rejects cease-fire deal with Hamas and vows to fight until "absolute victory." This madman will set Israel and the world on fire just to delay his inevitable removal from power and the consequences from a pending corruption court case against him.

Keep this in mind in future discussions when Zionists bring up the fact that many peace proposals are rejected by Palestinians - without delving into the details of those proposals or hoping those they discuss with have a short memory or are ignorant of the details.

Even Saudi Arabia has now come out and said no normalization with Israel will take place without a recognized Palestinian state. At the same time a poll shows half of Israel don't want a Palestinian state. Similar to a poll early on in the conflict that showed 60% didn't think Israel was using enough firepower (after dropping the equivalent of two Hiroshimas on a tiny populated area of civilians unable to flee) - keep these poll results in mind next time Zionists claim its only a few extremists in their government, or use Netenyahu as a scapegoat for the systemic entitlement and dehumanizing sentiment a lot of Israeli society has for Palestinians.

'Zionism backs Palestinians into a corner from which they can either die in silence and darkness, leave Palestine and accept the erasure of their homeland, or fight back. Then, when they fight back, Zionists audaciously play victim on the world stage. Truly dystopian..'

Edited February 8 by zazen

[zazen]

To the moderate Israeli's to not get triggered when people refer to 'Zionists' the nuance of how the word is used should be explained. I think a lot of those speaking against 'Zionism' don't necessarily mean the eradication of Israel as a state, but the eradication of an oppressive apartheid version of the state. 

If the idea of Zionism means a state and homeland for Jews then most can be for it (regardless of if they are against ethno-states in general - that's another conversation). But if Zionism means a state for Jews that is formed and exists till today at the expense of local inhabitants within their borders or surrounding it, a state that goes beyond its borders to form a Greater Israel and encroaches land through settlement expansion, and a state that denies local inhabitants outside of its borders statehood and keeps them in a limbo state of affairs which involves a violent 'security' structure that is routinely resisted against - most are against this version of Zionism. Call it ultra-Zionism. 

The British philosopher Bertrand Russell's warning from 1970 on Israel's strategy in the Middle East: 'For over 20 years Israel has expanded by force of arms. After every stage in this expansion Israel has appealed to “reason” and has suggested “negotiations”. 'This is the traditional role of the imperial power, because it wishes to consolidate with the least difficulty what it has already taken by violence. Every new conquest becomes the new basis of the proposed negotiation from strength, which ignores the injustice of the previous aggression. 'The aggression committed by Israel must be condemned, not only because no state has the right to annex foreign territory, but because every expansion is an experiment to discover how much more aggression the world will tolerate.'

Edited February 8 by zazen

[Karmadhi]

@zazen The issue with Zionism is that it glorifies hardcore Judaism which is a toxic genocidal racist ideology. No issue with moderate Jews but Judaism unlike Christiniaty and Islam is fundamentally racist and genocidal.

Since it was the first religion, it is the least developed and Christinity and Islam which came after corrected a lot of its flaws.

For example Christianity says "All are equal before God", in Judaism basically Jews are superior and the rest should serve them (Racism).

In Islam it is not allowed to kill women and childreen, in Judaism genocide is  embraced when  it comes to protecting Jews (Seed of Amalek).

This is the issue with Zionism, it builds on this ideology/religion which can cause atrocities and apartheid (like it is happening currently).

Note: No issues with moderate Jews. I think most Israelis are secular Jews, here I am talking about hardcore religious people.

This information I got from recently reading Yuvan noah harari s work.

Edited February 8 by Karmadhi

[Danioover9000]

@zazen

2 hours ago, zazen said:

To the moderate Israeli's to not get triggered when people refer to 'Zionists' the nuance of how the word is used should be explained. I think a lot of those speaking against 'Zionism' don't necessarily mean the eradication of Israel as a state, but the eradication of an oppressive apartheid version of the state. 

If the idea of Zionism means a state and homeland for Jews then most can be for it (regardless of if they are against ethno-states in general - that's another conversation). But if Zionism means a state for Jews that is formed and exists till today at the expense of local inhabitants within their borders or surrounding it, a state that goes beyond its borders to form a Greater Israel and encroaches land through settlement expansion, and a state that denies local inhabitants outside of its borders statehood and keeps them in a limbo state of affairs which involves a violent 'security' structure that is routinely resisted against - most are against this version of Zionism. Call it ultra-Zionism. 

The British philosopher Bertrand Russell's warning from 1970 on Israel's strategy in the Middle East: 'For over 20 years Israel has expanded by force of arms. After every stage in this expansion Israel has appealed to “reason” and has suggested “negotiations”. 'This is the traditional role of the imperial power, because it wishes to consolidate with the least difficulty what it has already taken by violence. Every new conquest becomes the new basis of the proposed negotiation from strength, which ignores the injustice of the previous aggression. 'The aggression committed by Israel must be condemned, not only because no state has the right to annex foreign territory, but because every expansion is an experiment to discover how much more aggression the world will tolerate.'

   Good explanation of Zionism. It's basically a call against the Israel alt right that demand a greater Israel.

[Karmadhi]

It baffles me how Israel has completly lost all reason and morality just from loosing 800 civilians.

Countries in history lost so much more and kept their cool.

Ukraine has lost 10.000 at least and still is not as genocidal as "civilized" Israel.

Insane country.

[Vrubel]

9 hours ago, zazen said:

BREAKING: Netanyahu rejects cease-fire deal with Hamas and vows to fight until "absolute victory." This madman will set Israel and the world on fire just to delay his inevitable removal from power and the consequences from a pending corruption court case against him.

Keep this in mind in future discussions when Zionists bring up the fact that many peace proposals are rejected by Palestinians - without delving into the details of those proposals or hoping those they discuss with have a short memory or are ignorant of the details.

That’s not at all a thorough take on Netanyahu’s decision-making here.
It seems to me you filter all and any information to fit a very specific narrative. In previous posts, I explained the concept of mushy-mindedness.  

 

6 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

@zazen The issue with Zionism is that it glorifies hardcore Judaism which is a toxic genocidal racist ideology. No issue with moderate Jews but Judaism unlike Christiniaty and Islam is fundamentally racist and genocidal.

Since it was the first religion, it is the least developed and Christinity and Islam which came after corrected a lot of its flaws.

For example Christianity says "All are equal before God", in Judaism basically Jews are superior and the rest should serve them (Racism).

In Islam it is not allowed to kill women and childreen, in Judaism genocide is  embraced when  it comes to protecting Jews (Seed of Amalek).

This is the issue with Zionism, it builds on this ideology/religion which can cause atrocities and apartheid (like it is happening currently).

Note: No issues with moderate Jews. I think most Israelis are secular Jews, here I am talking about hardcore religious people.

This information I got from recently reading Yuvan noah harari s work.

 

I genuinely find this funny. Thanks for making me smile. I can see you "try" to understand Jews but instead of genuinely understanding you just filter and extrapolate to fit your narrative and agenda. Historically Christianity was not exactly known for its tolerance and treating everybody equally, to put it extremely lightly. And Islam never harms children and WOMEN?

In traditional Arab culture, a brother will kill his own sister if she had premarital sex or even got raped because the dishonor is so big. That shit even happens from time to time in my hometown in Israel (both Arabs and Jews live there). 

 

4 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

It baffles me how Israel has completly lost all reason and morality just from loosing 800 civilians.

What's baffling is your non-understanding and projection. It's okay to have bias and feel sympathy for Palestinians but you basically, mentally wrestled yourself into some kind of corner.

Israel is not fighting a war of choice. There is a fire under their feet that leaves them no choice but to take out Hamas. 


 

[Twentyfirst]

13 hours ago, Nivsch said:

@Karmadhi without even see it I choose to believe you and there are crap soldiers and bad husbands and bad human beings everywhere.

You won't think differently anyway. No need to prove you anything.

But you credit Israel for all the good things. The fake democracy, the gay strip clubs, women dressing like sexual objects. All the things that make it a shining beacon in the Middle East which would otherwise be a sand pit. But when Israel does bad it doesn't represent the nation but rouge agents 

Edited February 9 by Twentyfirst

[Twentyfirst]

2 hours ago, Vrubel said:

 

In traditional Arab culture, a brother will kill his own sister if she had premarital sex or even got raped because the dishonor is so big. That shit even happens from time to time in my hometown in Israel (both Arabs and Jews live there). 

 

Whats your point? In the West they kill each other too 

[Nivsch]

Israelis are no different in their mentality and development than the average of New York, California and Texas. And if you think they are, your view is highly deluded and you are not in a stable position to do a higher resolution discussion about the conflict.

Edited February 9 by Nivsch

[Heaven]

41 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

Israelis are no different in their mentality and development than the average of New York, California and Texas. And if you think they are, your view is highly deluded and not in a stable position to do a higher resolution discussion about the conflict.

These pro Palestinians are like a broken record. They will say whatever they can do make Israel look bad.. Sometimes it feels to me like they are bots.

They highly ignore the spread of hate towards the Jews and the effect it has worldwide. Antisemitism is climbing and Jews around the world get attacked.

They ignore the basics. Schooling right now in Gaza and the West Bank are teaching children about Hitler and brain wash their minds to die as a Shaheed (In their teachings it’s to kill Israelis). 
Palestinians state with the current authority will be a disaster. Admit it. 
 

 

[Heaven]

4 hours ago, Twentyfirst said:

Whats your point? In the West they kill each other too 

Stop answer like a lil kid.. There is a huge difference between abusing women because it’s inherent in your religion than some random acts of insanity.

[zazen]

5 hours ago, Nivsch said:

Israelis are no different in their mentality and development than the average of New York, California and Texas. And if you think they are, your view is highly deluded and you are not in a stable position to do a higher resolution discussion about the conflict

Why is it that most of the Jewish youth of America don't agree with the Israeli states actions and have actually been the most vocal about it in protest? This suggests their is a difference in mentality. Unless you refer to the settlers who come from America and feel entitled to take Palestinians homes like the famous Jacob from Brooklyn who said 'If i don't steal it someone else will' - those guys are similar to Israeli mentality of the far right.

10 hours ago, Vrubel said:

That’s not at all a thorough take on Netanyahu’s decision-making here.
It seems to me you filter all and any information to fit a very specific narrative. In previous posts, I explained the concept of mushy-mindedness.

It wasn't meant to be thorough take. But since you think you know better whats going on in Netenyahu's head maybe elaborate on it.  If its as simple as 'he's trying to defeat Hamas absolutely and get rid of them' then that's nothing new. The question is, how realistic is that, what will be the consequences of that (suffering of many more Palestinians) and can Israel afford more bad press world wide and war crimes being live streamed boastfully by the IDF to be further embarrassed by the ICJ case which I'm sure is noting all of it and will display it on their follow up. 

 

[Vrubel]

25 minutes ago, zazen said:

Why is it that most of the Jewish youth of America don't agree with the Israeli states actions and have actually been the most vocal about it in protest? This suggests their is a difference in mentality. Unless you refer to the settlers who come from America and feel entitled to take Palestinians homes like the famous Jacob from Brooklyn who said 'If i don't steal it someone else will' - those guys are similar to Israeli mentality of the far right.

Obviously, American Jews will have a different culture and worldview due to their specific survival challenges (or lack thereof). Also, America has a very loudmouthed polarized culture. Many young American Jews will get mindlessly swiped up into stage green hiveminds, maybe they'll mature and grow out of it. Either way, Americans and American Jews are goofy AF . Still love them though.
 

38 minutes ago, zazen said:

It wasn't meant to be thorough take.

Oke, but everybody can mindlessly shit-talk. Say what you want but in this instance, Netanyahu is demonstrating real leadership in this absolutely horrific situation with no easy answers. 

 

9 hours ago, Twentyfirst said:

But you credit Israel for all the good things. The fake democracy, the gay strip clubs, women dressing like sexual objects.

 

What a creepy ass post, Don’t project Muslims inability to tolerate free women. The reason you have the need to control women is because your society is not mature enough to handle women expressing their beauty and free will.

 

[Karmadhi]

13 hours ago, Vrubel said:

Historically Christianity was not exactly known for its tolerance and treating everybody equally, to put it extremely lightly. And Islam never harms children and WOMEN?

In traditional Arab culture, a brother will kill his own sister if she had premarital sex or even got raped because the dishonor is so big. That shit even happens from time to time in my hometown in Israel (both Arabs and Jews live there). 

Dont confuse application from the manual. I am talking about what the holy book says for each of them. I am not saying that in real life Islam never harms civilians or Christianity treats all the same. In Judaism it is clearly written that Jews are more important than Gentiles, in Christianity are the same in front of God. That is what I meant. Sorry if it came wrong.

 

13 hours ago, Vrubel said:

What's baffling is your non-understanding and projection. It's okay to have bias and feel sympathy for Palestinians but you basically, mentally wrestled yourself into some kind of corner.

There have been polls where most Israelis said "not enough force has been used on Gaza". So dropping 3 Hiroshimas worth of TNT in a small dense area is not enough. There are Israelis trying to block humanitarian aid to enter Gaza. It is sick. 

 

 

 

Edited February 9 by Karmadhi