New War In Israel / Gaza

[Nivsch]

@Heaven I will tell you why. When you grew up in a democracy you take it for granted, and you will actually attract to the shadowic "bad guy" you crave for because he represents the stages / places in your psychology you have not yet fully confronted and integrated their healthy form, and the attraction you feel is your subconscious way to show you that you need to do this. Many people will see it in that way and some in totally different ways.

Edited February 1 by Nivsch

[Merkabah Star]

51 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

When you grew up in a democracy you take it for granted, and you will actually attract to the shadowic "bad guy" you crave for because he represents the stages / places in your psychology you have not yet fully confronted and integrated their healthy form, and the attraction you feel is your subconscious way to show you that you need to do this.

[Twentyfirst]

4 hours ago, Heaven said:

The world is divided by two groups:

One is supporting the Western culture.(USA, EU, Israel, UAE, Australia, Japan, South Korea) Those countries value open mindedness, safety, freedom, development, justice, less corruption

And the other is supporting the Eastern culture.(China, Russia, North Korea, Iran). Those countries value dictatorship, corruption, full of drugs, terror, religion, 

I would never live in an Eastern culture country. I believe 99% of the people wouldn’t. 
Why most here do support them(The funniest part is that 99.8% here do live in a Western country)? The answer to that remain unknown to me. Please educate me.

Eastern civilization goes back thousands of years more than Western. Think of how silly it is for USA which is a country only few hundred years old telling China, a country 5 thousands years old, what to do and how to live. 

It seems that it's Westerners that can't stand Eastern way of living and are insistent on everyone living like them even though they hypocritically do not.  Eastern people aren't caring about westerners that much. Have you learned anything from this thread? We pointed out Western tendencies to force others to live in some ideal way that they don't even live up to so many times now 

[Karmadhi]

10 hours ago, Nivsch said:

They don't want enough, or they are caught in a war between two voices one who wants a state and another who wants to stay in the victim position and an independent state treatens him. If they really wanted a state it would have happened a long time ago.

Neither does the current right wing Zionist regime of Israel unfortunately.

So it goes both ways

[Karmadhi]

23 hours ago, Heaven said:

The world is divided by two groups:

One is supporting the Western culture.(USA, EU, Israel, UAE, Australia, Japan, South Korea) Those countries value open mindedness, safety, freedom, development, justice, less corruption

And the other is supporting the Eastern culture.(China, Russia, North Korea, Iran). Those countries value dictatorship, corruption, full of drugs, terror, religion, 

I would never live in an Eastern culture country. I believe 99% of the people wouldn’t. 
Why most here do support them(The funniest part is that 99.8% here do live in a Western country)? The answer to that remain unknown to me. Please educate me.

Sure, I will do my best.

First, you need to disginguish between Internal and Foreign Policy.

Internal policy is basically how you treat your own citizens, so people that live in your country. This also includes minorities and even migrants. 

When it comes to internal policy, Western countries are far better than countries like China, Russia, North Korea and Iran. There is no comparison. Which is why most people want to live in the West (on top of having good economies of course).

A gray area would be the rich gulf countries which lack freedom but are rich. Plenty of people go to live there too. But overall, we can agree that Western countries tend to have superior internal policies and treatment of their own citizens and residents (non citizens than live there).

However, there is also foreign policy. Foreign policy is basically how you treat other countries and how you relate to them.

When it comes to foreign policy, this is where Myself and many liberals start to have major issues with Western countries. 

This is because in the last 3 decades or so, most wars have been started by Western countries to advance Western interests. This is mostly USA but also France in the case with Libya (Sarkozi had illegal funding from Gaddafi). So, as pro peace people as liberals are, imagine seeing most of the wars started in the world being started by your beloved Western countries. As corrupt as North Korea is, they never invaded anyone. China has not invaded other countries either. Neither has Iran. Russia would be the exception and it is only Ukraine and Syrian involvement.

Meanwhile look at USA track record for example: Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria involvement, Funding Israeli without any care about their war crimes and also being involved in regime topplins all over the world. As I wrote in an above post, regime toplins often make the country worse since dictators are there for a reason. They maintain order amongst a split society, without them you have anarchy or terrorism.

So now, since liberals we like peace, we are totally disgusted by this war mongering foreign policy, want it to stop and criticize the West 24/7. Western hypocrisy and double standars are also a major issue for us liberals that live in the West. i have talked with countless friends of mine from the West (Western Europeans) and they are all disgusted by the double standards. A prime example is when Putin denies water, electricity, fuel of Ukranians in Mauripol it is a horrible war crime and totally unacceptable (as it should be). However, when Israel does it in Gaza (a city with 6x the population of Mauripol and far far far more childreen), then nobody says anything. The only time the EU criticized a hospital strike in the war was when Israel denied doing it and it was unclear who did it. I am talking about the one where 300 to 500 died and everyone pointed fingers at each other. Meanwhile when Israel blows up 100 civilians to kill 1 Hamas in a refugee camp, nobody says anything. But when Putin bombes and kills 10 civilians in Ukraine, it is a war crime and Putin is the anti christ.

So it is not that we do not find Western values good, or not like to live in the West. It is not a value issue. It is the war mongering and highly intrusive foreign policy that we are so critical about. You will never see people shitting on countries like Norway or Denmark for example. Because their foreign policy minds their own business and they tend to be quite objective actors. Norway for example has been super harsh about Israeli war crimes in Gaza. UK/France not much, USA not at all.

And lastly, since you seem to be from Israel, as democratic as Israel may be, the way they treat Palestinians in the West Bank is anything but that. Random police raids without warrants at 2am terrorizing families, total surveillance, illegal settlements, countless highly unecessary shootings of people with snipers, arresting kids for throwing rocks and putting them in cages (yes I have an article about this) etc. 

Personally I would rather live in Russia or China 100 times over living as a Palestinian in the West Bank (where there is no Hamas in power btw), treatment created by Israel. 

There is no denying that Israeli itself is a pretty good place to live and treats Arabs there relatively well. Some call it apartheid but I am not informed enough to say that. I saw a very disturbing article where basically Israel illegally gave stuff to Ethiopian Jews not to reproduce anymore which is clear racism. So, there might be certain racist elements in Israel but I do not know. However, their foreign policy, so the way they treat Palestinians in the West Bank and Lebanon provocations are quite problematic. 

 

Edited February 2 by Karmadhi

[Twentyfirst]

10 hours ago, Nivsch said:

@Karmadhi They don't want enough, or they are caught in a war between two voices one who wants a state and another who wants to stay in the victim position and an independent state treatens him. If they really wanted a state it would have happened a long time ago.

What do you fault the Palestinians for? It seems like you are pretty harsh and blaming them completely for the position they are in.

Was it their fault they were invaded in 48? Was it their fault the Jews used weapons from the most powerful country in the world? Was it their fault they lost even more land after? Is it their fault that nobody internationally helps them simply because the US always vetos it? Is it their fault that Gaza is a cramped shit hole? Is it their fault that the West Bank is riddled with settlements that turn their land into swiss cheese? Is it their fault that they have nowhere else to go (don't say they should go to Egypt or Jordan, that is not a solution because they are not Egyptian) and that their is only one Palestine that they have no choice but to fight for? Is it their fault that no massive crime against humanity has been hidden from the world since world war 2 EXCEPT for this one? Is it their fault that they are born with Israeli soldiers, snipers, and tanks on their land and by the time they grow old the occupiers are still there and they have to hand off their children to be ruled by these occupiers. Is it their fault that there is no future promise of hope so they have nothing to do and no opportunity? Is it their fault that when they are born they are automatically refugees and the country they are born into has an unfair war waged against it? 

Maybe have some empathy. They didn't really do anything "wrong" and have just been unlucky for a century. A lot of their suffering is caused by European Jews.

[Twentyfirst]

16 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

Sure, I will do my best.

First, you need to disginguish between Internal and Foreign Policy.

Internal policy is basically how you treat your own citizens, so people that live in your country. This also includes minorities and even migrants. 

When it comes to internal policy, Western countries are far better than countries like China, Russia, North Korea and Iran. There is no comparison. Which is why most people want to live in the West (on top of having good economies of course).

A gray area would be the rich gulf countries which lack freedom but are rich. Plenty of people go to live there too. But overall, we can agree that Western countries tend to have superior internal policies and treatment of their own citizens and residents (non citizens than live there).

Western countries only give you the freedom to destroy yourself (gambling, drinking, drugs, clubbing, promiscuity, selfishness)

There is nothing positive that you can do in the West that you are not allowed in the East 

[Twentyfirst]

6 hours ago, Heaven said:

The world is divided by two groups:

One is supporting the Western culture.(USA, EU, Israel, UAE, Australia, Japan, South Korea) Those countries value open mindedness, safety, freedom, development, justice, less corruption

And the other is supporting the Eastern culture.(China, Russia, North Korea, Iran). Those countries value dictatorship, corruption, full of drugs, terror, religion, 

I would never live in an Eastern culture country. I believe 99% of the people wouldn’t. 
Why most here do support them(The funniest part is that 99.8% here do live in a Western country)? The answer to that remain unknown to me. Please educate me.

Let me guess. You learned all this from Western media? 

[Heaven]

46 minutes ago, Twentyfirst said:

Let me guess. You learned all this from Western media? 

I live in a Western country and I know for a fact that China has slavery, high in crime rate(inside and outside). highest social gaps, and very little value to the world and women rights are at its lowest.

Same applies to Russia, Iran and North Korea.

 

 

 

Edited February 2 by Heaven

[Twentyfirst]

23 minutes ago, Heaven said:

I live in a Western country and I know for a fact that China has slavery, high in crime rate(inside and outside). highest social gaps, and very little value to the world and women rights are at its lowest.

Same applies to Russia, Iran and North Korea.

 

 

 

Theres a huge problem with this whole "development" argument. I was trying to say it earlier in this thread when people were talking about stage colors to not pay attention to stuff like that

First off all you don't know how developed you are versus someone else

Second off even if you were developed. Does that give the excuse to invade peoples land and kill them? Who is really more developed then? 

Let's say all that stuff about those countries are true. Why do you care? What has Russia or Iran actually done to you personally? 

Edited February 2 by Twentyfirst

[Heaven]

1 hour ago, Twentyfirst said:

Theres a huge problem with this whole "development" argument. I was trying to say it earlier in this thread when people were talking about stage colors to not pay attention to stuff like that

First off all you don't know how developed you are versus someone else

Second off even if you were developed. Does that give the excuse to invade peoples land and kill them? Who is really more developed then? 

Let's say all that stuff about those countries are true. Why do you care? What has Russia or Iran actually done to you personally? 

When you think about the greater good is when you are on the track of development. The more selfish you’re the less developed you are. Obviously when you have slavery, corruption and funding poor people to kill others that’s a good sign that you’re evil.

My grandparents left Russia because of antisemitism and Iran is funding terror organizations that killed 2 of my friends while they were in a festival and made my family evacuate their home.

 

[Twentyfirst]

53 minutes ago, Heaven said:

When you think about the greater good is when you are on the track of development. The more selfish you’re the less developed you are. Obviously when you have slavery, corruption and funding poor people to kill others that’s a good sign that you’re evil.

My grandparents left Russia because of antisemitism and Iran is funding terror organizations that killed 2 of my friends while they were in a festival and made my family evacuate their home.

 

I guess what I am saying is all these "bad" countries are only bad from your perspective. If you ask them they would say you are bad. Me personally I like both east and west and there are pros and cons to each but I think the east is a better place to spend your life in. 

Whatever solutions the west has of bridging the gap between west and east obviously is not working and only making things worse. Sorry for your loss but there is indeed blood on both sides and its just better if everyone learns from each other

[Yimpa]

36 minutes ago, Twentyfirst said:

I guess what I am saying is all these "bad" countries are only bad from your perspective. If you ask them they would say you are bad.

Just look at your own personal life 10-20 years ago. Would you consider yourself bad, or exactly where you needed to be at that time to get to where you are now?

[Twentyfirst]

2 hours ago, Yimpa said:

Just look at your own personal life 10-20 years ago. Would you consider yourself bad, or exactly where you needed to be at that time to get to where you are now?

Being where you needed to be at that time to get to where you are now only works if you have elevated. The west has been on a decline since 10-20 years ago and it did it to itself. Culture, values, and overall well being has been going down and everyone in the west is noticing and wondering about that and trying to find solutions even the kids know that something is going on. The West has not only declined for itself but took advantage and made a lot of enemies while it was in power instead of making friends for in case it ever loses power 

Meanwhile technology has leveled the playing field and other countries are catching up. Culture and values and health has remained at good levels in other parts of the world. People are more naturally mindful (they don't have to learn mindful exercises as desperately) have skills, education, speak multiple languages 

The West is being overtaken as the powerhouse of the world or at least is being tested and that's just how it is. Obviously from reactions we can see that Westerners are having a super hard time accepting this new reality and would rather blame, misrepresent, cry, victimize, demonize, become violent at everyone else. They will do anything to remain "superior" even if it means being delusional 

Edited February 2 by Twentyfirst

[Nivsch]

11 minutes ago, Twentyfirst said:

The west has been on a decline since 10-20 years ago and it did it to itself 

Elevated in some sense but 'forgot' and declined in others yes.

[Twentyfirst]

5 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

Elevated in some sense but 'forgot' and declined in others yes.

I updated what I wrote. Yes in small ways it elevated I will agree there 

[Merkabah Star]

 

[Karmadhi]

16 hours ago, Twentyfirst said:

Western countries only give you the freedom to destroy yourself (gambling, drinking, drugs, clubbing, promiscuity, selfishness)

There is nothing positive that you can do in the West that you are not allowed in the East 

I mean you have different types of "East".

In countries like Japan, South Korea and to some extent India you have relative freedom and stuff. But the "East" which @Heaven said like Russia, China, Iran, North Korea you are more restricted. Also restriction is not the same. So North Korea is MUCH MUCH more restrictive than Russia for example. Russia is not that bad if you do not talk against Putin from what I have been told from people living there. Meanwhile North Korea you go to a concentration camp for 3 generations about the most mundane things. Iran is also super restrictive. So it depends. But overall I would say West is more free. Also economy is a huge factor here. Western countries are far wealthier.

@Heaven Firstly I am sorry to hear about your loss and your situation. I was not aware of it. If you would like to comment on my answer to your question I would love to hear your ouput.

Edited February 2 by Karmadhi

[Nivsch]

14 hours ago, Heaven said:

When you think about the greater good is when you are on the track of development. The more selfish you’re the less developed you are. Obviously when you have slavery, corruption and funding poor people to kill others that’s a good sign that you’re evil.

My grandparents left Russia because of antisemitism and Iran is funding terror organizations that killed 2 of my friends while they were in a festival and made my family evacuate their home.

Sorry to hear 🙏💛

[Karmadhi]

10 hours ago, Nivsch said:

Elevated in some sense but 'forgot' and declined in others yes.

West situation is interesting. They are basically slowly evolving to Green and going towards Green creates loss of some elements which can be seen as very important to Orange and especially Blue.

Loss of ethnic dominance from immigration, loss of religion (Rise of atheism), loss of family unit and the whole LGBT stuff screams anti Blue. So for Blue people West is going to shit. However, it also removes some of the healthy factors of blue like low divorce rate, high birth rates (young people are needed to work) and also the whole green environment thing can damage the economic growth. So basically the West is loosing some of the benefits Blue gave it in exchange of Green benefits (more tolerance, more liberal, less inequality in economy and especially more care towards minorities). 

We are fortunate to live in a very interesting moment in history. The clash between blue and orange versus green.

I think all these wars, both internal cultural wars within countries and wars between countries  are fundamentally linked with this.

For example Iran involvement is blue trying to spread its influence, same with Russia war in Ukraine. All the wars USA does in the Middle East is orange trying to maximize economic interests. Also the Israeli current atrocities are fundamentally Blue based (their cabinet is mostly blue at the moment) against a very ruthelss Red Hamas.

Edited February 2 by Karmadhi