New War In Israel / Gaza

[Nivsch]

@zazen The comparison is wrong because:

1. Murder isn't comparable to settle peacefully without violent intent and don't show me the 0.01% extremists.

2. UNRWA is in my impression connected to terror more than just through bad apples and I wrote what I think above.

Edited January 29 by Nivsch

[Bobby_2021]

47 minutes ago, zazen said:

If they are an apartheid, naturally this will be resisted against. That resistance is then labelled terrorism

If resistance is in the form of raping & killing Israeli women and taking many more civilians as hostage ,then terrorism is indeed the right label. 

Doing such barbaric acts in a different country would easily be enough grounds for provocation of war with that country. 

That is what is happening. War.

Not resistance. Not genocide. War.

When you declare war, for whatever reasons, you should be prepared to fight it. It's right to say hamas invited a war with Israel and the civilians are paying the price for it. 

[Danioover9000]

@zurew

52 minutes ago, zurew said:

Yes it does, the whole point of that chart is to give a quantitative analysis for indiscriminate genocidal intent and it is a counter to the argument of 'But look at the civilian death numbers' . 

Meaning, that if someone wants to make a counter argument using a quantitative analysis (rather than a qualitative one), then you have to use an even better metric than relative risk (which is used on the chart that I shared). Or you can give a qualitative analysis and counter it that way.

I don't see how this is relevant. 

If more buildings gets destroyed that establishes somehow that there is an intent of genocide? I think there is a loose correlation between genocidal intent and the amount of buildings getting destroyed. I think Relative risk (RR) is a better metric to use, but if you can give an argument why destroying buildings and genocide is closely related, then i am open to hear about it.

These arguments are fine in terms, that you try to give a qualitative analysis/argument there, which the chart I shared does not want to counter. Again the chart is just a counter argument to the other quantitative analysis of 'but look at the civilian death number'.

   OMG, that's exactly like how Paul Eckman's work was paid and funded by DARPA, CIA, FBI and border security, for national defense reasons in the USA. They just funded his 'science project' and wanted a codified facial data set, call it 'SCIENCE' and 'quantifiable SCIENCE' and get away who their pseudo science meanwhile virtue signaling they're so OBJECTIVE. You're falling into this trap they do as well:

   Albeit I made some counter arguments of her presentation that Body language analysis is a Pseudoscience, I can't help but see a parallel with you and those DARPA that wanted to codify Paul Eckman's work based on faulty science methodology.

 

   Point 3 is relevant because when all is said and done, how are Palestinians going back to their homes? If HAMMAs is destroyed, do Gazans get to return to their ruined north Gaza? Do they have homes still in the middle and south of Gaza? Like do you not see how relevant this is to Genocidal intent mate? BTW Palestinians will NEVER SURRENDER THEIR LANDS TO ISRAEL! Palestinians will keep on trying to live in what's available land for them, even if Israel demolishes every hospital, every school, every apartment and houses Palestinians will return to try to rebuild what's left. Question is that why are you not factoring the destruction of their buildings as part of genocidal intent? I think that's relevant here, cuz meanwhile most Gazans are outdoors in sough Gaza starving to death and with little shelter. Same for all the other points I made. Imagine if Nazi Germany went their genocide of Jews differently, they didn't kill them at all, but they sure as hell made life very difficult for them, destroyed most of their communities and homes, restricted their water and food, made genocidal rhetoric against them, dehumanized the Jews, therefore in your logic because they never killed Jews Nazi Germany never genodcided them??? COME ON BRO.

 

43 minutes ago, zurew said:

Btw if anyone wants to ask some questions to the guy who created the chart, you can do it on twitter right now (he is live):

 

   I personally don't care about some rando's chart, might as well be crayons and call it 'BRO SCIENCE, YOU KNOW SCIENCE?!' or 'FACTS DON'T CARE ABOUT THE FEELING!', like if I have to point out that the real purpose of arguing and debating so to persuade and convince others to adopt your POV, but in reality it's the SURVIVAL of your ego and ideology to mid infect other's perspectives, then we can't argue. I'm just right.

[Danioover9000]

@Bobby_2021

2 minutes ago, Bobby_2021 said:

If resistance is in the form of raping & killing Israeli women and taking many more civilians as hostage ,then terrorism is indeed the right label. 

Doing such barbaric acts in a different country would easily be enough grounds for provocation of war with that country. 

That is what is happening. War.

Not resistance. Not genocide. War.

When you declare war, for whatever reasons, you should be prepared to fight it. It's right to say hamas invited a war with Israel and the civilians are paying the price for it. 

   By that logic, Nazi Germany did nothing wrong when they did Poland in together with Russia, and when the Allies declared war they're innocent, by your logic they can just excuse whatever terrorist acts from Poland, or from the Allied forces or resistance fighters in Germany as acts of terror, and justify their actions then.  

[Bobby_2021]

7 hours ago, zurew said:

Regarding the claim 'careless targeting/killing of civilians' here is a tweet, that has a graph that calculates the relative risk rather than just stateing how many civilians were killed. It has multiple wars on it , so you can compare and see all the different relative risk values from different wars.

https://twitter.com/AviBittMD/status/1751718541621928033/photo/1

The idea that the only variable (how many civillians were killed) is adequate enough to establish that Israel indiscriminately killing everyone is an incredibly bad logic and doesn't make much sense at all. The whole idea of discrimination is to measure how much you differentiate killings between militants and civilians - You need to compare militant death to civilian death (per capita).

As you can see on the tweet's graph, relative risk(RR) is calculated this way:  (Militants killed/Militant population) / (Civilians killed/Civilian population). 

Here is his explanation (timestamped) how relative risk is applied in real scenarios:

 

If this is true, then their entire narrative collapses. Brilliant explanation. 

[zurew]

 

@Danioover9000

I see you going on a rant and got triggered for some reason, you should cool down before you give a response.

15 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

You're falling into this trap they do as well:

Im not falling in any trap, I shared how RR is calculated and what it supposed to represent and what specific argument it supposed to counter and thats it. Now you are connecting this to a whole narrative and other stuff that wasn't mentioned or said at all.

20 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

Point 3 is relevant because when all is said and done, how are Palestinians going back to their homes? If HAMMAs is destroyed, do Gazans get to return to their ruined north Gaza? Do they have homes still in the middle and south of Gaza? Like do you not see how relevant this is to Genocidal intent mate?

23 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

dehumanized the Jews, therefore in your logic because they never killed Jews Nazi Germany never genodcided them??? COME ON BRO.

I don't know why you are making strawman arguments. You are not even trying to be good faith.

I never said there is no connection between destroying buildings to genocide intent, all I said was that alone destroying buildings has a loose correlation to genocide intent.

Regarding the Nazi argument. Nazis did kill millions of Jews and if we were to take a look at RR(relative risk) regarding them, then the calculation would show an obvious genocide, without looking at how many buildings were or werent destroyed. 

Edited January 29 by zurew

[Nivsch]

29 minutes ago, Bobby_2021 said:

If resistance is in the form of raping & killing Israeli women and taking many more civilians as hostage ,then terrorism is indeed the right label. 

And then all their "situation" or "reasons" are just being thrown out of the window, exactly like that the Nazis motives are irrelevant when they commit such atrocities.

Edited January 29 by Nivsch

[zazen]

@Bobby_2021 When you occupy a people, bully them on their own land and deny them their right to self determination and sovereignty, and put them in a pressure cooker environment - you should be prepared for what comes your way.

Just like how in Syria 3 US troops have now been killed and many more injured. Their very presence is a invitation to violence and chaos, designed to undermine the legitimacy of a sovereign nation and act as a catalyst for a pre-emptive attack on Iran once one or some of their troops eventually gets taken out by Iran or a Iran backed militia. 

Edited January 29 by zazen

[Nivsch]

@zazen There is no bullying at all, except by extremists, but this is right to any place in the world.

There is a ground area restriction.

If you want to be empirical you should not puff it with warm air and saucy words.

Edited January 29 by Nivsch

[Bobby_2021]

12 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Bobby_2021

   By that logic, Nazi Germany did nothing wrong when they did Poland in together with Russia, and when the Allies declared war they're innocent, by your logic they can just excuse whatever terrorist acts from Poland, or from the Allied forces or resistance fighters in Germany as acts of terror, and justify their actions then.  

You all are trying to draw parallels with Nazi Germany, colonial British India and the American Invasion of Afghanistan. 

Nazi Germany did genocide amidst war. 

British India was a colonial rule amidst war. 

And Afghan was invaded by America amidst their war ln terror. 

Genocide, is not happening here.

Colonization, isn't happening here.

Invasion isn't happening here. 

War is definitely happening here and so as occupation from Israel and terrorism from Gaza. Let's not argue over this. 

What's happening in Israel-Gaza is more akin to the border disputes over contested land which is far too common across countries. This situation is just a bit more complicated due to the unique geopolitical condition in the middleast. 

[Danioover9000]

@Bobby_2021

1 minute ago, Bobby_2021 said:

You all are trying to draw parallels with Nazi Germany, colonial British India and the American Invasion of Afghanistan. 

Nazi Germany did genocide amidst war. 

British India was a colonial rule amidst war. 

And Afghan was invaded by America amidst their war ln terror. 

Genocide, is not happening here.

Colonization, isn't happening here.

Invasion isn't happening here. 

War is definitely happening here and so as occupation from Israel and terrorism from Gaza. Let's not argue over this. 

What's happening in Israel-Gaza is more akin to the border disputes over contested land which is far too common across countries. This situation is just a bit more complicated due to the unique geopolitical condition in the middleast. 

   Sure invasion isn't happening, but colonialism and genocide is. Look at the starvation tactics and destroying building, as if they want to displace the Gazan population...

[_Archangel_]

@Danioover9000 good stuff you're smokin' eh When did i ever implied 9/11 was a hoax?

i'm just saying that Al Qaeda didn't attack at random. There were reasons.
But if you just look at the attack with pre- and post- knowledge you cannot possibly guess the why's.

I repeat.
Data are important, but they must serve the big picture, othewise there is a risk of useless and endless arguing about minutia.

[Bobby_2021]

9 minutes ago, zazen said:

When you occupy a people, bully them on their own land and deny them their right to self determination and sovereignty, and put them in a pressure cooker environment - you should be prepared for what comes your way.

Giving them complete Sovereignty would be a mistake since it threatens the security of Israel. Israel needs to exist first. Even for you to criticize it, it has to exist first. 

Giving away the occupied places is giving away control of land of great strategic value. 

It's a complicated scenario. How much is Israel's occupation balancing security and oppression? I don't know. But I wouldn't demand complete liberation of occupied territories. 

[Danioover9000]

@Bobby_2021 @_Archangel_

1 minute ago, _Archangel_ said:

@Danioover9000 good stuff you're smokin' eh When did i ever implied 9/11 was a hoax?

i'm just saying that Al Qaeda didn't attack at random. There were reasons.
But if you just look at the attack with pre- and post- knowledge you cannot possibly guess the why's.

I repeat.
Data are important, but they must serve the big picture, othewise there is a risk of useless and endless arguing about minutia.

   Okay, cool story bros.

Just now, Bobby_2021 said:

Giving them complete Sovereignty would be a mistake since it threatens the security of Israel. Israel needs to exist first. Even for you to criticize it, it has to exist first. 

Giving away the occupied places is giving away control of land of great strategic value. 

It's a complicated scenario. How much is Israel's occupation balancing security and oppression? I don't know. But I wouldn't demand complete liberation of occupied territories. 

     @zazen gonna take another break from this thread, GG and GL with discussions @Raze, @Karmadhi and @Merkabah Star.

[Bobby_2021]

2 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Bobby_2021 @_Archangel_

   Okay, cool story bros.

     @zazen gonna take another break from this thread, GG and GL with discussions @Raze, @Karmadhi and @Merkabah Star.

I also had enough. I am taking a break from this thread as well.

Godspeed people. 

[zazen]

Same, taking a break just like @kenway 

Probably will return when some new developments happen but am discoursed out now.

Have a good week everyone - and don’t forget to smell the roses.

Edited January 29 by zazen

[Nivsch]

@zurew Thank you for the analysis. I will try to understand fully the formulation I need to sit on it for a while 😊

[zurew]

3 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said:

If this is true, then their entire narrative collapses. Brilliant explanation. 

Yep assuming the numbers he used to calculate are correct, it is a pretty strong empirical case against the claim of indiscriminate killing of everyone.

Whatever argument someone wants to make against this have to explain this: Why would Israel spend a whole bunch of time, effort, resources, and mission objective compromises just to discriminate away from civilians killings?

Quote

Unsurprisingly, discrimination ratio strongly relates to genocides in a very expected way. Its incredibly unlikely for genocides to have high discrimination ratios. They tend to be quite low. This makes sense, if a country truly has genocidal intent, it makes very little sense to spend a whole bunch of time, effort, resources, and mission objective compromises just to discriminate away from civilians killings. 

So what does this mean in terms of Israel and how the discrimination ratio provides evidence as it relates to the probability of genocide? With an RR of 16.7, the probability of this expectation happening if Israel is committing genocide is 0.0000208536.

Now, as I have already said, of course this is not an absolute way of assessing whether Israel has genocidal intent or not, however it has to be appreciated how much weight it holds and whatever arguments somone wants to make against this ,has to hold a lot of weight to counter this stat and calculation.

Edited January 29 by zurew

[Merkabah Star]

Bitterman is a very unfortunate surname.

i did go to highschool with a guy who’s surname was cock. That was worse i suppose. 🤡

[zurew]

2 hours ago, Nivsch said:

@zurew Thank you for the analysis. I will try to understand fully the formulation I need to sit on it for a while 😊

I think in the video (what I linked) there he explains it pretty well, but if you have further specific questions or any confusion about the data or anything related to the project you can directly ask him - he will explain it in detail. You can reach him on twitter or at his discord server (if that is necessary I can give you the link in pm).

Almost every day he goes live on twitter and he answers questions regarding the project.