Posted January 28 (edited) 17 hours ago, Raze said: Now let me ask you, how would you react if -you were born in a small extremely population dense strip of land you could not leave -a blockade is imposed around you so restrictive half of your population is unemployed, a third malnourished, and water supply almost entirely poisoned, and a significant amount of children with dangerous levels of lead poisoning as a result -regular barrages kill and injure thousands of your people including friends and family just in the last 17 years, including when you try to protest peacefully , barrages so violent a majority of children and teens suffer PTSD before the current war -2,900 of your people held prisoner without charges as bargaining chips In this situation, I would also possibly react in violence. But that’s the situation Gazans are in, and doesn’t justify what Hamas did either. From top do down: 1. See but the center of Israel is really dense too. And especially in the northern of the strip there is a big area of open air but also around the cities, not to mention a coastal plan. To say this is Ideal? No. But how Israel is responsible for that in your view? 2. Blockade of what? Of marine and air ways. This is true. But do you dare let the terror organization who is the authority there this accesses? The water issue is more complicated and I will try to give you a link to an earlier discussion here. 3. Money is not a problem. Gaza is very rich. The problem is how the money is distributed. Who is to blame in that? 4. About the barrages I didnt understand I will read your links before I can answer. Edited January 28 by Nivsch 🌻 Thinking independently about the spiral stages themselves is important for going through them in an organic, efficient way. If you stick to an external idea about how a stage should be you lose touch with its real self customized process trying to happen inside you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 28 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Raze said: 2. Israel controls the West Bank and they are treated horribly there and getting massacred in the hundreds right now, why would Israel control of Gaza be any different? There is a kind of low intensity war there between Israel and hamas (not civilians) too since 2002. What do you think putted an end to twice weekly suicide bombing attacks came mostly from West Bank in the 00's? Your statements are very unfair and misleading. Edited January 28 by Nivsch 🌻 Thinking independently about the spiral stages themselves is important for going through them in an organic, efficient way. If you stick to an external idea about how a stage should be you lose touch with its real self customized process trying to happen inside you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 28 (edited) 6 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said: How oppressed are the people of Gaza? They had a pretty good quality of life had not hamas ruined it all on oct 7. I bet Israel is the reason why they did have a decent quality of life. They did give them electricity and food consistently even hamas took the lion share of it. Enough of the oppression narrative. The solution is simple. Give the control of the entire region to Israel or take control to clean the area of global terror organizations. There are degrees to things - a spectrum of oppression exists. Were women so oppressed by patriarchy in the past because they couldn’t vote? Did they need to protest and even go as far as the suffragettes who vandalised buildings in protest? The level of resistance is in line with the level of oppression. Resistance doesn't have to exclusively be only to the most extreme absolute versions of oppression and it doesn't deny the fact that some form of oppression is occurring that needs resisting and protesting to. Ethnic cleansing/displacement is still happening whether they live in a nice house in West Bank or not. Fundamental rights, such as right to self determination and right to return are denied. They are occupied and bullied in their own land. By your logic, if a group of people run a society better that entitles them to rule over another group - almost like a colonial argument. If the Japanese run society well and have one of the best economies, is clean, efficient and safe should they rule over other people? Should the British rule India? What’s your definition of terrorism? We should give as much weight to the sociological framework of genocide as we do to the legal framework of genocide, especially considering that the legal framework was established in a manner built to protect the most powerful states in the world from accountability. The legal framework under which we prosecute genocide is limited and has always been limited. It is so limited that not even Germany has ever been convicted of genocide and yet when the Holocaust is denied, we deem it correctly as genocide denialism. - Arnesa Buljusmic-Kustura (Genocide researcher) Edited January 28 by zazen Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 28 @Nivsch you have a long way to go before you reach SD yellow. This war is going to backfire so hard. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 28 Mushminds take glee in “keyboard attacking” Israel or whatever tragic misfortune befalls her. Though the simple truth is that if Israelis can’t live in security neither can’t the Palestinians. This is also true the other way around. Though the dynamic is such that Palestinians pay way more for the insecurity of Jews. So if you hate suffering so much or love Palestinians why not be constructive in your approach to peace. Or just admit you don’t want peace and care more for “keyboard fighting” or literal fighting Israel, acting ugly and deceitful contributing to hate, war and suffering. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 28 @Vrubel 1 hour ago, Vrubel said: Mushminds take glee in “keyboard attacking” Israel or whatever tragic misfortune befalls her. Though the simple truth is that if Israelis can’t live in security neither can’t the Palestinians. This is also true the other way around. Though the dynamic is such that Palestinians pay way more for the insecurity of Jews. So if you hate suffering so much or love Palestinians why not be constructive in your approach to peace. Or just admit you don’t want peace and care more for “keyboard fighting” or literal fighting Israel, acting ugly and deceitful contributing to hate, war and suffering. What? Mushminds? Take glee in 'keyboard attacking' Israel or 'whatever' tragic misfortune befalls her? Why is Israel gendered as a her? Why is the truth simple? I think some of my side has reasonable disdain for suffering, and @zazen and @Karmadhi have presented most reasonable posts about this situation, @Raze, @Husseinisdoingfine, @Merkabah Star and @StarStruck is 50/50 good posts with some trolling. It's just when users for example @Lila9, or you, or @Heaven would post inflammatory posts and take things a bit too far that we would sometimes respond in kind. Only @Nivsch out of your side demonstrated most reasonable posts, even sometimes he's irrational, like your side started this 'keyboard warrior' thing first mate...We're responding back. Funny how life imitates ART, and ART imitates life here, when you and your side gets called out for misbehavior, you accuse us for starting this keyboard warrior thing, just like with Israel/Palestine... Again, chill out and take a break, clearly seems like you're still upset over some user getting temp ban here. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 28 @Danioover9000 Thank you for your analysis/Judgment. You’re extremely helpful for this sub. What do you guys think about the future of this conflict? Will Hezbolla start a war in northern Israel? Will Israel attack in Qatar/Iran?(I think it’s about time) Do you think Egypt cooperating with Hamas?(obviously most the the weapons is getting from there). Will Israel attack there too? I believe in the next few months Israel will see normalization with the Saudis. And somehow will get their assistance of supervision on Gaza. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 28 (edited) I think a fundamental issue on this whole conflict is the deep sentiment that both sides think that the land that used to be the British Palestinian Mandate belongs to them. Jews think it is their holy land and therefore feel entitled to it, especially the current Israeli government while Palestinians think Israel stole it from them. Unless this is somewhat clarified with the respectable leading authorities from each group, this issue will never be solved. Like how can you make peace when Gazans say "you guys are thieves that stole our land and put us here" when Isarelis say "we kicked out all the Jews from Gaza and let you guys manage Gaza". Like according to Gazans all the areas around Gaza are Palestinian land, stolen from them while Israelis feel like they were super generous to even let Gaza exist without Jews in it. Total fucking mess. Only factual things here is: Hamas stole a lot of money and killed the opposition and focused on military instead of developing itself, Israel did not allow Gaza to have an airport, Gaza is mostly refugees kicked out since 1948, Gaza fires rockets toward Israel super often, Israel kills on average 20x more than get killed, Gaza supports Hamas and would like to see Israeli gone (some as becoming much smaller than it is, some as a political entity aka state, some as all Jews kicked, some as all Jews killed depending on how radical they are). Issue here fundamentally is that each side sees themselves as the victim and the generous one. Good luck solving this, I have given up. I just think this war is disgusting and want it to end asap and everyone involved with war crimes to face justice. I am honestly tired with Israel receiving insane diplomatic immunity from the West and not facing some consequences when they carelessly kill civilians without caring. Hamas did not receive any immunity, it got sanctioned and its leaders are wanted dead. So the consequences for each side's war crimes are not the same in my opinion. Edited January 28 by Karmadhi Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 29 (edited) @Karmadhi Thanks for trying to simplify the issue. The main thing is that this conflict was never between Gazans/Palanstinians and Israel. It’s between big terror organizations(Iran, Qatar, Russia, Turkey) and Israel. Israel cannot show any weakness against the 10/7 attack because they fear their real enemies will explode it. The real conflict is about having a Western ally in the Middle East. They are afraid on Israel making progressive effect over other countries in the region. (Already did with UAE and the Saudis). That’s the reason I kept saying to look on the macro. Obviously there is something much bigger happening than just a piece of land. I hope now you understand better why Israel has Western support(They are fighting for them). Ukraine is on the same boat. Btw Gaza had an airport in the past but it lost it because of continuous terror attacks. About the solution. Enlightenment is the answer. My estimation is in 80-100 years😎 Edited January 29 by Heaven Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 29 (edited) 37 minutes ago, Heaven said: The main thing is that this conflict was never between Gazans/Palanstinians and Israel. It’s between big terror organizations(Iran, Qatar, Russia, Turkey) and Israel. I do not think Qatar, Turkey are terrorist organizations. Where is your proof for that? 37 minutes ago, Heaven said: I hope now you understand better why Israel has Western support(They are fighting for them). Ukraine is on the same boat. To me Israel uses same war crime prone tactics in Gaza that Russia uses in Ukraine (cutting electricity, water, fuel, bombing hospitals, bombing evacuation corridors etc, I would say the Russian Siege of Mauripol looked like a mini Gaza when I read about it). So I find it quite hypocritical for people to be critical of Russia while supporting Israel considering the human suffering in both quantity and methodology that they create in warfare is not so different. And to be clear, I do not see Russia as the demon the west sees it. But I heavily disagree with some of their policies, same with Iran, same with China, same with Israel, same with US. Edited January 29 by Karmadhi Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 29 51 minutes ago, Karmadhi said: I do not think Qatar, Turkey are terrorist organizations. Where is your proof for that? To me Israel uses same war crime prone tactics in Gaza that Russia uses in Ukraine (cutting electricity, water, fuel, bombing hospitals, bombing evacuation corridors etc, I would say the Russian Siege of Mauripol looked like a mini Gaza when I read about it). So I find it quite hypocritical for people to be critical of Russia while supporting Israel considering the human suffering in both quantity and methodology that they create is similar. And to be clear, I do not see Russia as the demon the west sees it. But I heavily disagree with some of their policies, same with Iran, same with China, same with Israel, same with US. Instead of appreciating the knowledge I shared with you, you continue with your propaganda. I’ll continue with my explanation, hopefully you will learn to appreciate it. “Hamas runs an office in Qatar's capital, Doha, and leaders Ismail Haniyeh, Moussa Abu Marzuk and Khaled Mashal maintain a luxurious lifestyle. They have been seen at its diplomatic club, photographed on private jets, and traveled widely. The leadership would have been there for the 2022 soccer World Cup.“ - NYpost. “Turkey provides financial and logistical support to Hamas, which is a considered a terrorist organization by much of the West. Turkey hosts senior Hamas officials, including Saleh al-Arouri. Hamas head Ismail Haniyeh and former chief Khaled Meshal visit Turkey often.“ VOAnews. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 29 @Karmadhi 50 minutes ago, Karmadhi said: I do not think Qatar, Turkey are terrorist organizations. Where is your proof for that? To me Israel uses same war crime prone tactics in Gaza that Russia uses in Ukraine (cutting electricity, water, fuel, bombing hospitals, bombing evacuation corridors etc, I would say the Russian Siege of Mauripol looked like a mini Gaza when I read about it). So I find it quite hypocritical for people to be critical of Russia while supporting Israel considering the human suffering in both quantity and methodology that they create in warfare is not so different. And to be clear, I do not see Russia as the demon the west sees it. But I heavily disagree with some of their policies, same with Iran, same with China, same with Israel, same with US. I partly agree, hard to think Qatar and Turkey are only terrorist organizations when they're countries, and like all other countries there are many developmental factors, history, economy, and societies. Like what are they terrorizing? Tourists? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 29 @Heaven 2 hours ago, Heaven said: @Danioover9000 Thank you for your analysis/Judgment. You’re extremely helpful for this sub. What do you guys think about the future of this conflict? Will Hezbolla start a war in northern Israel? Will Israel attack in Qatar/Iran?(I think it’s about time) Do you think Egypt cooperating with Hamas?(obviously most the the weapons is getting from there). Will Israel attack there too? I believe in the next few months Israel will see normalization with the Saudis. And somehow will get their assistance of supervision on Gaza. Your welcome. I'll briefly answer questions: Bleak for both Israel/Palestine actually, for Israel for the messy handling of this conflict, and for Palestinians as they continue to lose more of their lands and homes. Seems like Palestinians are hell bent in fighting for their homes, whatever is left of it. Reminds me of the Apache and Comanche when they fought the Early European settlers for their native lands. Maybe Hezbollah would, but more likely Israel might make the first move north, just like last time. Israel attacking Qatar/Iran is risky without dealing with Hezbollah first. IDF don't have a large army, and need some for their defense. If they launch and commit to attacking Qatar, Hezbollah could attack their weakened defenses. I don't know if Egypt is cooperating with HAMMAs. Last time I recall, Egypt refused to take Palestinians into it's country because the current ruler doesn't want the Muslim opposition to gain more power there, and HAMMAs weapons are mostly supplied through Syria. Obviously Egypt don't like Israel after losing some of it's territory to Israel. Hopefully in a few months maybe a ceasefire, or some calming down, hope Saudis help with the humanitarian aid for Gazans because they're in deep deep suffering. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 29 Jeez, Andrew Tate just dunking on Ben Shapiro: Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 29 34 minutes ago, Heaven said: Instead of appreciating the knowledge I shared with you, you continue with your propaganda. Karmadhi didnt continue with propaganda, he or she? responded in a nice, gentle way that wasn’t biased. Isn’t that how we are trying to reply now? I think you are getting triggered on any criticism of Israel and then you project that it’s propaganda, when it clearly isn’t. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 29 Quote UNRWA to stop aid delivery in Gaza after US, Australia cease funding following Israeli October 7 accusations The United Nations head has called on the US and others, including Australia, to resume funding its main agency providing aid in Gaza after Israel accused a dozen employees of taking part in the October 7 attacks. Mark Regev, an adviser to the Israeli prime minister, told the BBC last Friday the October 7 terrorist attacks had involved "people who are on their [UNRWA] salaries". Mr Regev told the BBC there was information showing teachers working in UNRWA schools had "openly celebrated" the October 7 terrorist attacks. He also quoted a released Israeli hostage who claimed she had been "held in the house of someone who worked for UNRWA". The agency itself has responded to the allegations by terminating the contracts of some staff members to protect the agency's ability to deliver humanitarian assistance. A woman holds a placard depicting Israeli hostages as supporters block aid into the Kerem Shalom crossing. (Reuters :Alexandre Meneghini ) Spokesperson Juliette Touma warned the agency for Palestinian refugees, would be forced to stop its support to more than 2 million Palestinians in Gaza by the end of February. The besieged territory is in the grip of a severe humanitarian crisis, with a quarter of the population facing starvation as fighting and Israeli restrictions hinder the delivery of aid. "The abhorrent alleged acts of these staff members must have consequences," UN Secretary-General Antonio Guterres said in a statement on Sunday (local time). "But the tens of thousands of men and women who work for UNRWA, many in some of the most dangerous situations for humanitarian workers, should not be penalised. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-01-29/unrwa-aid-to-stop-in-gaza-after-october-7-allegations/103399340 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 29 It is horrid that 12, or probably more like 100, of their staff cheered it on or were a part of it. At least they are identifying them and will prosecute them. Australia hopefully will channel that money into other organisations on the ground. I would say every aid group in Gaza had a similar issue tho. Yes, it’s just a few bad apples, as nivsch would say. Pulling all aid in a humanitarian disaster is not the answer tho. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 29 All holocaust remembrances should be scraped imo. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 29 (edited) On 28.1.2024 at 9:24 AM, LSD-Rumi said: Intersting He knows better than all of us. He is the son of former hamas leader. I know him from 2016 when he became more well known. I assume he is still hiding and careful. Their brutality didn't bypass their actual own people too in prison, and in the most sadist ways, as he described here and in his book. Edited January 29 by Nivsch 🌻 Thinking independently about the spiral stages themselves is important for going through them in an organic, efficient way. If you stick to an external idea about how a stage should be you lose touch with its real self customized process trying to happen inside you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
