New War In Israel / Gaza

[Heaven]

@Raze Let’s agree to disagree🙏 

Please stop using this platform to promote your agenda. Showing only one side of the story. Emphasizing how bad is the other side.
 

Imagine that someone broke into your house burned your house, raped your wife and kidnapped your children. 
How would you behave? 

[Merkabah Star]

 

[Merkabah Star]

Quote

The United States has created a channel with Israel to discuss concerns over incidents in Gaza in which civilians have been killed or injured by the Israeli military and civilian facilities have been targeted, two U.S. officials with knowledge told Reuters. The channel was set up after a meeting earlier this month between U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken and Israel's war cabinet during which Blinken expressed concern about the "constant" reports of Israeli strikes that either hit humanitarian sites or resulted in large numbers of civilian deaths."

 

[Raze]

56 minutes ago, Heaven said:

@Raze Let’s agree to disagree🙏 

Please stop using this platform to promote your agenda. Showing only one side of the story. Emphasizing how bad is the other side.
 

Imagine that someone broke into your house burned your house, raped your wife and kidnapped your children. 
How would you behave? 

Disagree on what?

That music video wasn’t made by Al Jazeera, why are they bad for simply reposting it? Should they just ignore it and pretend it didn’t happen?

If that happened to me I would be angry and possibly react in violence, but I’d hope other actors would stop me from doing something that would hurt me. As of now I support a ceasefire because not only does the war hurt Palestinians, it hurts Israeli’s. If I was personally effected I may behave differently, but that doesn’t mean I’d be right, I could be making a more irrational decision. That is what I think Israel is doing, Hamas is not a threat if the Gaza border is guarded, they can only fire largely useless rockets. But the ongoing war risks wider war now and in the future, and risks even more extremism from Palestinians in the future.

Now let me ask you, how would you react if

-you were born in a small extremely population dense strip of land you could not leave

-a blockade is imposed around you so restrictive half of your population is unemployed, a third malnourished, and water supply almost entirely poisoned, and a significant amount of children with dangerous levels of lead poisoning as a result

-regular barrages kill and injure thousands of your people including friends and family just in the last 17 years, including when you try to protest peacefully , barrages so violent a majority of children and teens suffer PTSD before the current war

-2,900 of your people held prisoner without charges as bargaining chips

In this situation, I would also possibly react in violence. But that’s the situation Gazans are in, and doesn’t justify what Hamas did either.

Edited January 27 by Raze

[_Archangel_]

@Danioover9000

4 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

I agree to learn from every source, and discern truth and agenda, but what if the information ecology is polluted by propaganda, and poisons the well of discerning truth and agendas? 

That's why i said we shouldn't come to conclusions right away.

4 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

Great, I agree the answer isn't to spread more propaganda, yet why is Israel spreading more propaganda than the pro Palestinians?

How can you be sure Israel spreads MORE propaganda? How do you mesure? It's not like we're running short of pro Pales/Hamas propaganda online. Hard to say which one spread more.

5 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

 How is arguing a single isolated event useless? For example, in Andrew Tate's human trafficking trial, they're focused on proving/disproving him being guilty for specifically human trafficking, so is that a useless event and waste of time to gather more details?

You can't compere a single human with a 100 years of Israeli government.
You can't make sense of the big picture just looking at single events, expecially if they are countless and date back to the origin of time.

I'm just saying fixation over minutia is never helpful.

[Danioover9000]

@Heaven

2 hours ago, Heaven said:

@Danioover9000 Bro I can clearly see how emotional you’re about this topic..You keep publishing cherry picking of information and look micro rather than macro. 
You keep brainwashing yourself with YT Islamic content and then you get mad with us not agreeing with you.

You are not here to discuss. You are here to show how wrong the other side is and criticizing us. 
You need to be honest with yourself and ask what are you trying to do here.

You lead to war instead of finding common ground.

   Bro, you're you. You and you not agreeing with you. You. You. You yourself here you. You lead war you... that's 12 yous. Notice how you deflect and blame others and me, but not you? You do you.🤣

   That post is for every one to read, not just for @Heaven only, please curb your main character syndrome. That post was for every one, including @Vrubel, @Nivsch. Even @Raze, @Karmadhi, @zazen and @StarStruck. Yeah, you guys have your moments of super bias on the pro Palestinian side, don't lie, especially you @StarStruck, stop cheerleading the few users here who instigate drama okay? Because we need to have the most objective discussion here possible...

Edited January 27 by Danioover9000

[Heaven]

Lol

@Danioover9000 God bless you

[Danioover9000]

@_Archangel_

9 minutes ago, _Archangel_ said:

@Danioover9000

That's why i said we shouldn't come to conclusions right away.

How can you be sure Israel spreads MORE propaganda? How do you mesure? It's not like we're running short of pro Pales/Hamas propaganda online. Hard to say which one spread more.

You can't compere a single human with a 100 years of Israeli government.
You can't make sense of the big picture just looking at single events, expecially if they are countless and date back to the origin of time.

I'm just saying fixation over minutia is never helpful.

   But sometimes fixation over minutia led to science becoming great and helpful...

   I'm making  a parallel between Israel/Palestine with Andrew Tate human trafficking case, saying that you saying that I can't be more detailed and specific, is like the jury and judges not wanting detailed evidence to build a case for/against Andrew Tate to prove human trafficking. And sometimes for practical reasons they need to establish place and time, and gather details slowly, see?

   I agree with most your points, and also on we shouldn't jump to conclusions, but people here on the pro Israeli side and Pro Palestinian side, the few users here hating and trolling are jumping to conclusions like frogs. Also you picked on me so I have to defend myself.

[Danioover9000]

@Heaven

2 minutes ago, Heaven said:

Lol

@Danioover9000 God bless you

   Thank the heavens, good we can agree to disagree.😄

[Loveeee]

[Karmadhi]

4 hours ago, Heaven said:

Media is clearly on the Islamic side because there are 2 billions Islamic people verses 15 millions Jews. Not to talk about TikTok who is controlled by China(Obviously they are on the terrorist side).
Focus on facts. See the world as it is.

Could you tell us some unbiased media sources on this issue?

I try to post here BBC, CNN and New York Times (I sent yesterday a pretty disturbing New York Times study and tagged you)

What would you consider as unbiased? I think we can agree Al Jazeera is somewhat biased.

Although I noticed that both BBC and CNN did not broadcast the genocide court case of South Africa but they did broadcast the Israeli defense the next day. That makes me suspicious of them being not objective here. Usually you broadcast either both or either.

Edited January 28 by Karmadhi

[LSD-Rumi]

Intersting

 

[Leo Gura]

10 hours ago, Heaven said:

@Leo Gura Please ban @Raze

 

Don't use this thread to try to ban people.

[_Archangel_]

@Danioover9000 Maybe i didn't explain myslef clear....

I don't mind the analysis of isolated events.
But it becomes a problem when it is the only way you make sense of a situation. And that has been the trend of this sub lately.
The big picture is more important in this case.

It's like 9/11. A plane didn't fall from the sky for no reason. there were hundreds of reasons.
But if you just look at the towers falling you are going to have an incomplete picture.

[zazen]

@_Archangel_ Agreed. There have been posts here regarding a wider context and the macro view of the situation. The issue is a lot of those underlying dynamics just aren’t accepted such as that there is an occupation, apartheid lite structure or a slow motion ethnic cleansing campaign happening since decades. The common rebuttal is that this is propaganda or that Jews have been persecuted for centuries so anything required for a safe state is justified. 

At my current understanding I see the core dynamic (macro) of the situation as the following;

- Israel was a humanitarian project with good intent married to colonial project with colonial intent, in an era when de-colonisation was occurring and it was no longer accepted. What made this an exception was the horrifying atrocity of the Holocaust.

- They sought to establish a Jewish majority state in a Arab majority land and population. To achieve this would require demographic engineering using laws, guns and a strong narrative to justify it.

- What came from it was two  controlled territories recognised as occupied but that have been allowed to be ‘run’ by Palestinians in a limited way as a way to deflect from the fact that they are occupied even though they are (West Bank internally - Gaza externally). 

- To accomplish this would require mastering propaganda, weaponising past traumas such as the Holocaust and using labels such as anti-Semitic to nuke criticism. Intertwining with institutions of world powers and the worlds superpower to ensure constant support for it doesn’t hurt either.

- Naturally to uphold such a structure requires oppression and violence. Just as it is natural for blood to arise from a wound, resistance will arise against oppression as a consequence. Any resistance to oppression is then gaslighted as terrorism to dehumanise and discredit their cause. Narrative control.

- As far as isolated events (October 7th): cunning and powerful nations will focus on the latest event they feel transgressed against and leave out any wider context leading up to it, including any provocations on their part (Ukraine/Russia). They behave as if the word provocation doesn’t exist in the dictionary and then act like the event that erupted into war was simply done in a vacuum. 
 

- On an even wider geopolitical context: we are entering a multipolar a world where the West aren’t the unipolar hegemon. This is why more nations are emboldened to challenge them. It’s not that they aren’t a power, they just aren’t the only one - and they haven’t acclimated to the fact. When entities die out, they lash out in retaliation to their egos getting hurt, acting and flexing to remain top dog which is now only seen as a liability by the world. Whether they accept this fact or destabilise the world because they can’t remains to be seen - many steps can clearly be seen for the latter.
 

Making it relevant to Israel’s situation, just see what actions have been taken and the timing of them. The night of South Africa’s hearing in ICJ (wasn’t broadcast in the West) they bombed Yemen to deflect attention and show who’s in charge. The day following ICJ’s ruling that a plausible case for Genocide exists they pull funding from UNRWA (UN aid for Palestinians) for similar reasons and which is now all over Western news rather than the case itself. This was done on allegation from Israel that 12 members (who have now been sacked and are under investigation) were involved in October 7th. UNRWA employs 30’000 people, so for 0.4% of criminal activity you shut down a agency that is most needed the day after the top world court has legitimised a genocide in process implying the need for such a agency. If 0.4% of the NHS (UK’s national health service) were criminal, does that justify pulling the plug on the whole thing? Or is it a retaliation.

The West are now in breach of the Geneva convention which was just emphasised a day earlier ( facilitation of aid ). The US leads the way and Europe follows like lapdogs. Just like Edward Snowden said: the US/EU facility criminal activity and enable Israel. This isn’t to be anti-West (I’m in the west, from it and pro it) but the establishment and devilry needs to be called out and addressed, and true Western values need to be lived (pro-humanity, tolerance , justice and old values we thought we evolved out of discarded: covert imperialism, colonialism and predatory capitalism)

Edited January 28 by zazen

[Bobby_2021]

How oppressed are the people of Gaza? They had a pretty good quality of life had not hamas ruined it all on oct 7.

 

I bet Israel is the reason why they did have a decent quality of life. They did give them electricity and food consistently even hamas took the lion share of it. Enough of the oppression narrative.

The solution is simple. Give the control of the entire region to Israel or take control to clean the area of global terror organizations. 

[zazen]

@Heaven You’ve called for two users to be banned in the last two days. Leo and moderators are there for a reason / that’s within their authority not ours. If certain videos challenge your worldview too much take a break - though you haven’t been present on this thread for long. But yes, too much propaganda and link sharing can be annoying. That said - I can bring links that are not Al Jazeera but more pro-Israeli Murdoch media that would still probably bug you out lol.

[Rafael Thundercat]

A video that put all in a new perspective. We are going througth a massive collective  ritual of passage as well as individual. 

 

[Danioover9000]

@zazen

2 hours ago, zazen said:

@Heaven You’ve called for two users to be banned in the last two days. Leo and moderators are there for a reason / that’s within their authority not ours. If certain videos challenge your worldview too much take a break - though you haven’t been present on this thread for long. But yes, too much propaganda and link sharing can be annoying. That said - I can bring links that are not Al Jazeera but more pro-Israeli Murdoch media that would still probably bug you out lol.

   Yeah it does annoy me sometimes when users call out for bans sometimes, like they all know exactly how to be a moderator and do moderating. Dude, even your 'private' dms the mods can see, and there's always some mods active online, around the clock 24/7. We have excellent mods for the past 3-2 years. But I digress.

@_Archangel_

5 hours ago, _Archangel_ said:

@Danioover9000 Maybe i didn't explain myslef clear....

I don't mind the analysis of isolated events.
But it becomes a problem when it is the only way you make sense of a situation. And that has been the trend of this sub lately.
The big picture is more important in this case.

It's like 9/11. A plane didn't fall from the sky for no reason. there were hundreds of reasons.
But if you just look at the towers falling you are going to have an incomplete picture.

   Here's one negative outcome of you pushing for too much big picture, too much meta. Within the 9/11 event, there are various explanations, from conspiracy theories, hoaxes, or empty claims of inside job, and due to cultural zeitgeist and don't offend people too much, we don't collect every bit of detail there. If you did, you'd notice the laws of physics at work, that the building collapsing, and those 'puffs of smokes blowing out' are in fact the air within each floor expelling outwards. But then most people, and some people like you come at me and go 'But @Danioover9000! Don't see every specific detail, don't zoom in, zoom out and out bro!' and you're so focused in this that when I go 'Well, the reason why you see  'explosions' per floor is not demolition, but air expelling outwards. Also, the reason why this happened is because the plane had full fuel, and the heat melted the aluminum in the plane, which weakened the steel frame of the building, which has a historical basis that traces back to the Falklands war, when a ballistic missile hit one of the British battle ships, due to budget cuts the top of the battleship was mostly alloy instead of steel, which is aluminum, which has melting point faster than iron/steel, so it melted on top of the ammunition room which exploded that ship. Similar thing happened to the plane, the aluminum, the full tank, super heated the steel framing, which led to a collapse.' I go like this, but then most people, conspiracy theorists, some who are to emotional and irrational, don't want that, they just want to generalize hatred and not collect evidence and details to build a solid case for or against, just slander and that's that.

   BUT! I can't go into so much detail and specifics because we ABSOLUTIELY MUST go meta by your logic, go big picture thinking until we loose focus and have a fuzzy picture of what led to the events, what happened within such events, so until people balance or in some situation do more small picture thinking and less big picture thinking, we'll still hear these conspiracy theorists go on and on about this being an inside job or hoax.

[Raze]

4 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said:

How oppressed are the people of Gaza? They had a pretty good quality of life had not hamas ruined it all on oct 7.

 

I bet Israel is the reason why they did have a decent quality of life. They did give them electricity and food consistently even hamas took the lion share of it. Enough of the oppression narrative.

The solution is simple. Give the control of the entire region to Israel or take control to clean the area of global terror organizations. 

1. Read this https://www.unicef.org/mena/documents/gaza-strip-humanitarian-impact-15-years-blockade-june-2022

or this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip#Socioeconomic_impact

2. Israel controls the West Bank and they are treated horribly there and getting massacred in the hundreds right now, why would Israel control of Gaza be any different?

3. Even in Israel government officials are suggesting Israel can’t destroy hamas fully. If Israel occupies Gaza the situation will be more similar to Vietnam, Iraq, or Afghanistan during occupation, huge amounts of regular violence and rising extremism. 

Edited January 28 by Raze