New War In Israel / Gaza

[Karmadhi]

3 hours ago, Nivsch said:

see you meant only to Gazan citizens that you think didn't want to target Israeli citizens

To be clear, I think there is a part of Gazans that would kill Israeli civilians if they could. The issue is that we do not know how many of these Gazans are there so I do not support the idea putting them all in 1 basket and saying "all are guilty". Which is why I am against collective punishment.

But I do agree that some citizens in Gaza do help/support Hamas so there is a link between the two. Issue is that it is quite hard to know who it is exactly. Gaza being so dense does not help with that either.

So some are quite bloodthirsty and some are more moderate and would only kill if necessary.

Ideally the ones that took part in killings (non Hamas Gazans) should be prosecuted for murder/rape etc.

Hope it is more clear  

Edited January 26 by Karmadhi

[Heaven]

36 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

To be clear, I think there is a part of Gazans that would kill Israeli civilians if they could. The issue is that we do not know how many of these Gazans are there so I do not support the idea putting them all in 1 basket and saying "all are guilty". Which is why I am against collective punishment.

But I do agree that some citizens in Gaza do help/support Hamas so there is a link between the two. Issue is that it is quite hard to know who it is exactly. Gaza being so dense does not help with that either.

So some are quite bloodthirsty and some are more moderate and would only kill if necessary.

Ideally the ones that took part in killings (non Hamas Gazans) should be prosecuted for murder/rape etc.

Hope it is more clear  

Finally we can agree. 
Some of the survivals mentioned they were kept within citizens houses. So obviously not only Hamas is guilty.
IDF is doing an extremely hard work to separate the guilty and the innocent. 
Unfortunately it’s not always perfect..

 

[Karmadhi]

5 minutes ago, Heaven said:

Finally we can agree. 
Some of the survivals mentioned they were kept within citizens houses. So obviously not only Hamas is guilty.
IDF is doing an extremely hard work to separate the guilty and the innocent. 
Unfortunately it’s not always perfect..

The difference in our opinion is that you assume IDF is trying their best not to kill civilians and they are doing this whole thing under some good will where they care a lot about Palestinian civilians.

I do not think they are doing this under good will nor do they care about civilians dying in Gaza.

So even though a part of Palestinians may be affiliated with Hamas, Israel often treats them all as affiliated, when conducting their operations. 

And that I do not find acceptable which is why I am so critical of them.

 

[Raze]

17 minutes ago, Heaven said:

IDF is doing an extremely hard work to separate the guilty and the innocent. 
Unfortunately it’s not always perfect..

 

How do you know they are doing that? If they are why by their own estimation is over 70% the dead civilians and even worse if you look at US gov estimates? Why are they restricting medicine and food into Gaza which can’t be used to attack them? Why are they destroying farm land? Why did they publicly state the goal is to focus on damage? Why are they using unguided bombs and bombs 4x larger than what the US dropped in Afghanistan?

Edited January 27 by Raze

[Danioover9000]

@Leo Gura

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

There is no time limit on the ban.

   Oh really? In the past I was banned from the political sub forum for about 1 week, didn't know there's indefinite time. I stand corrected, never mind.

[Danioover9000]

@Karmadhi

1 hour ago, Karmadhi said:

To be clear, I think there is a part of Gazans that would kill Israeli civilians if they could. The issue is that we do not know how many of these Gazans are there so I do not support the idea putting them all in 1 basket and saying "all are guilty". Which is why I am against collective punishment.

But I do agree that some citizens in Gaza do help/support Hamas so there is a link between the two. Issue is that it is quite hard to know who it is exactly. Gaza being so dense does not help with that either.

So some are quite bloodthirsty and some are more moderate and would only kill if necessary.

Ideally the ones that took part in killings (non Hamas Gazans) should be prosecuted for murder/rape etc.

Hope it is more clear  

   Now this is much closer to the real issue, which is hatred and revenge cycles. Currently the situation is quite bad for Gazans/Palestinians due to IDF military bombings, displacement, and higher restrictions on aid, food, water, so forth. I do agree we shouldn't put them in '1 basket' or generalize the entire population as guilty of supporting HAMMAs, or guilty in total, and am too against blind collective punishment as that's an easy way to pass generational trauma down to children, and when they become adults if they don't sort out their traumas and hate/revenge they become next to perpetuate the hatred cycle, which is passed onto the next generation, and so on.

   Also agree that some do support HAMMAs way more than most, and due to density now and other factors it's very difficult for IDF to cleanly go after those who exactly support terror versus those trying to just survive as Palestinians. Yes, ideally IDF soldiers who actually raped/murdered a non combatant Palestinian should be charged, or hanged to show discipline onto IDF and to show HAMMAs strength, and keep in check and line the alt right in Israel to behave or get hanged. One time I'd be in favor for a death sentencing to implement severe martial law onto those who break them because it's so easy to seek revenge and to destroy more than what's the objective here. Plenty of dark events in military history shows this.

[Danioover9000]

@Karmadhi

32 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

The difference in our opinion is that you assume IDF is trying their best not to kill civilians and they are doing this whole thing under some good will where they care a lot about Palestinian civilians.

I do not think they are doing this under good will nor do they care about civilians dying in Gaza.

So even though a part of Palestinians may be affiliated with Hamas, Israel often treats them all as affiliated, when conducting their operations. 

And that I do not find acceptable which is why I am so critical of them.

 

   Hypothetically, let's assume this or next year, no other conflicts escalate, Israel/Palestine conflict ends with treaty or ceasefire, fighting over for now. When it comes time to investigate war crimes, and they find that say 20% of IDF committed actual war crimes, would Israel punish that 20% of soldiers? What if it's about 40% guilty, would they punish? How much would Israel feel like it's too much to prosecute? This is why IMO Israel should, more sooner than later, resolve this conflict one way or another so that when comes the investigations and trials, that lower numbers of soldiers get tried, not wait until 50% or more are guilty, then what? put all 50% behind bars, and have a -50% reduction in military?

[Karmadhi]

12 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

Hypothetically, let's assume this or next year, no other conflicts escalate, Israel/Palestine conflict ends with treaty or ceasefire, fighting over for now. When it comes time to investigate war crimes, and they find that say 20% of IDF committed actual war crimes, would Israel punish that 20% of soldiers? What if it's about 40% guilty, would they punish? How much would Israel feel like it's too much to prosecute? This is why IMO Israel should, more sooner than later, resolve this conflict one way or another so that when comes the investigations and trials, that lower numbers of soldiers get tried, not wait until 50% or more are guilty, then what? put all 50% behind bars, and have a -50% reduction in military?

I am not saying that half of all soldiers go to jail.

Ideally there is a chain of command and hierarchy, so the higher ups responsible go to jail for war crimes. Also those that displayed genocide language should be prosecuted too. You can also prosecute individual cases but as far as I know it usually works with higher ups. 

Similar way it happened in Serbia, Japan etc.

You did not see half the Japanese or Serbian army go to trial for war crimes, it was the military generals, commanders, leaders etc.

This will create a precedent that carelessly breaking international law and killing civilians unjustly is not tolerated anymore.

International Military Tribunal for the Far East - Wikipedia

One example.

Edited January 27 by Karmadhi

[Vibes]

1 hour ago, Raze said:

How do you know they are doing that? If they are why by their own estimation is over 70% the dead civilians and even worse if you look at US gov estimates? Why are they restricting medicine and food into Gaza which can’t be used to attack them? Why are they destroying farm land? Why did they publicly state the goal is to focus on damage? Why are they using unguided bombs and bombs 4x larger than what the US dropped in Afghanistan?

Exactly...

The raw actions are: destroying homes, starving, injuring and killing thousands of innocent people. How is that different from the Hamas terrorist attack? Seems even worse to me... Intention? Hell is full of good intentions.

Israel's good intentions are so biased / uncaring which is equal to what we call evil. The more biased you are the more evil you'll create.

And the Israelis in this thread are creating all sorts of excuses and justifications for this shit. Also, I even understand Israeli bias, but they should have grown out of it a little by now. So Leo is right to ban some of them, for keep on denying and justifying, out of close mindedness.

Edited January 27 by Vibes

[Heaven]

IDF notify Gazanians ahead of time to evacuate, example is northern Gaza, to eliminate Hamas facilities and infrastructure. This alone shows their effort to avoid massacre. This is not the first/last time IDF have been doing that.
When they finished, they allow them to go back.

As I said before, war is sad and painful.
Innocent do die in war. On both sides. Currently Hamas has Israeli babies on his possession so please stop comparing between the two. This will continue the conflict and disagreement here.

I wish we can brain storm a solution here instead of repeating lies and blaming the other side.
 

[Heaven]

@Leo Gura Can we create some sort of evidence based discussion here? If someone can’t provide a proof to what they write, We can stop him of further participation.

The issue I have with free speech is misinformation. 
And of course promoting terror organizations.

[Karmadhi]

11 minutes ago, Heaven said:

IDF notify Gazanians ahead of time to evacuate, example is northern Gaza, to eliminate Hamas facilities and infrastructure. This alone shows their effort to avoid massacre.

 

2 minutes ago, Heaven said:

Can we create some sort of evidence based discussion here? If someone can’t provide a proof to what they write, We can stop him of further participation.

Sure, here you go with actual evidence and not empty words.

Visual Evidence Shows Israel Dropped 2,000-Pound Bombs Where It Ordered Gaza’s Civilians to Move for Safety - The New York Times (nytimes.com)

Tell me what you think of this.

Note: I do not know why links are not properly sent here but I think you can find the article if you search those words.

Edited January 27 by Karmadhi

[Karmadhi]

12 minutes ago, Heaven said:

When they finished, they allow them to go back.

Netanyahu's Likud Ministers, Far-right MKs to Attend Israeli 'Gaza Resettlement' Conference - Israel News - Haaretz.com

Israel’s far-right wants to move Palestinians out of Gaza. Its ideas are gaining attention | CNN

There has been growing concern that part of Israeli politicians do not want them to go back.

 

[Heaven]

6 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

 

Sure, here you go with actual evidence and not empty words.

Visual Evidence Shows Israel Dropped 2,000-Pound Bombs Where It Ordered Gaza’s Civilians to Move for Safety - The New York Times (nytimes.com)

Tell me what you think of this.

Note: I do not know why links are not properly sent here but I think you can find the article if you search those words.

Thank you for proving my statement.

 

4 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

INetanyahu's Likud Ministers, Far-right MKs to Attend Israeli 'Gaza Resettlement' Conference - Israel News - Haaretz.com

Israel’s far-right wants to move Palestinians out of Gaza. Its ideas are gaining attention | CNN

There has been growing concern that part of Israeli politicians do not want them to go back.

 

It doesn’t matter what extremists want. Bottom line, they are allowed to go back. 

Edited January 27 by Heaven

[Karmadhi]

4 minutes ago, Heaven said:

It doesn’t matter what extremists want. Bottom line, they are allowed to go back. 

Well lets hope for that. From what I have seen so far nothing has been decided yet.

[Heaven]

2 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

Well lets hope for that. From what I have seen so far nothing has been decided yet.

Because the war is still going on. I am actually really optimistic about the future of Gaza. I think it will be under the right leadership and will be focused on creating value to the world.

[StarStruck]

9 hours ago, Nivsch said:

There is no such a thing.

I think truth is, in a sense at least, a war between biases that cannot be forcefully bypassed, but to be found graduately through the bias process.

Of course you could be unbiased.. if you wanted it and opened your eyes. 

[Nivsch]

9 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

To be clear, I think there is a part of Gazans that would kill Israeli civilians if they could. The issue is that we do not know how many of these Gazans are there so I do not support the idea putting them all in 1 basket and saying "all are guilty". Which is why I am against collective punishment.

But I do agree that some citizens in Gaza do help/support Hamas so there is a link between the two. Issue is that it is quite hard to know who it is exactly. Gaza being so dense does not help with that either.

So some are quite bloodthirsty and some are more moderate and would only kill if necessary.

Ideally the ones that took part in killings (non Hamas Gazans) should be prosecuted for murder/rape etc.

Hope it is more clear  

Sounds a fair approach to me ok I agree with you here 👍

[_Archangel_]

@Danioover9000

16 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

so what do we do when we're fed with propaganda, lies and misinformation?

To learn from every sources, but being able to descern the truth and the agenda.

The answer isn't to spread more propaganda.
I'm all for being conscious of what's happening on the field, but too much of that leads poeple to reinforce their biases, deafening critical thinking.

Arguing about a single isolated event is useless.

16 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

Feels like we're trying to downplay this issue and distance ourselves from this by going back to a more 'distant' timeline away from this current emotional conflict in Israel/ Palestine, it's like you're trying to tell us to back away, to go to distant pasts, away from the current situation because it's too uncomfortable. 

Not at all. 
I think we should back away because we risk to judge a hot event with rushed conclusion.
Remember all the poeple that rushed to conclusion over the early hospital explosions, not even a day after the facts.


 

[zazen]

29 minutes ago, _Archangel_ said:

I'm all for being conscious of what's happening on the field, but too much of that leads poeple to reinforce their biases, deafening critical thinking.

Arguing about a single isolated event is useless

True. I think another aspect is that the biases we see from the 'other' side can lead to frustration to the point each side will want to share isolated events which can help pop the other sides bubble and let them see that its not that they have biases, but that biases actually have them completely imprisoned. Similar to the fact that its not that people have routines or power but that routines and power have them as their servants. ie the guy who feels he can't get his day started without his 3 hour biohacking routine and anything missed ruins his day, or so he thinks lol.

If a isolated event is stark enough and individualized it can be a powerful tool at exposing our biases. When we hear large numbers like 10'000 dead it doesn't impact the same way seeing a named face who has dreams, aching eyes and a story behind them. Hits deeper and shakes us out of apathetic dehumanization and overlooking our 'sides' actions in perpetuating that suffering. 

38 minutes ago, _Archangel_ said:

I think we should back away because we risk to judge a hot event with rushed conclusion.
Remember all the poeple that rushed to conclusion over the early hospital explosions, not even a day after the facts.

Yeah jumping to conclusions too quickly is problematic. So is repeatedly leaving these isolated events one after another to accumulate dust while the other side uses them deflecting their responsibility and amplifying the event to then justify the continued horrors they commit. I think thats also a big reason why people rush to straighten out the facts and propaganda that has deadly consequences. If it wasn't consequential they probably wouldn't. Its really messy.