New War In Israel / Gaza

[Nivsch]

10 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

I cannot help but understand why they lashed out the way they did.

The problem with this approach is that in that way the whole notion of responsibility is completely diminished.

Why? Because everything, but everything, can be "understood" if we study for enough time the psychology behind it.

If we will investigate it enough, we will understand why Nazis started the war and killed 6 million Jews, gays, 'disabled' and more groups.

That is the point when 'understanding the other side reasons' paradigm exposes its limits, looses its meaning and starts to eat itself.

From those things we can conclude that every action of anyone, must also be examined under the responsibility lens. Nobody is exempted from it. No matter what is his stage of development and how his emotions or mental health or state is.

Edited January 26 by Nivsch

[Vrubel]

@Leo Gura Ban me too! 
 

I demand it respectfully, otherwise my next post will force you too. You are clearly fine with one propaganda but not the intellectual insights from an other. 

My authentic style is very romanticizing. That’s just my personality and the lens I view the world trough. Sorry for not being a cynical soul dead analyst, thats not my style.

Yes, there is a reason Israelis have hard time being compassionate to Palestinians but instead of picking our minds, you ‘consciousness shame’ and shut us down.

(I tripped a lot, I also had trips with immense compassion but also other themes).

guess what, we are no less conscious than vast majority of the people here. And if you even for a second think these hive mind people have some kind of moral high ground or are more compassionate, that’s a dangerous delusion of the highest order. 

Ban me now or bring back @Lila9 !

Edited January 26 by Vrubel

[Vrubel]

@zazen I understand your points. I won’t argue every point with you but just be careful of the viciousness of the hive mind you take part in. At some point they will make you betray your principles. Maybe they already did.

Edited January 26 by Vrubel

[zazen]

54 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

@zazen I understand your points. I won’t argue every point with you but just be careful of the viciousness of the hive mind you take part in. At some point they will make you betray your principles. Maybe they already did.

Appreciate the good intentions towards me. There’s bad bees in every hive, the bad ones in the Israeli hive have unfortunately brought the case of plausible genocide to the ICJ upon themselves. 

The hearing has ruled in South Africas favour and won the case for a plausible genocide taking place. A stain on Israel’s reputation and all who facilitate it in US and the West.  

Now the pressure comes on the West as to how they deal with Israel. Their lack of response will only create more of a rift and divide between them and the Global South.

 

Edited January 26 by zazen

[Nivsch]

I see another thing. The court is right about the problems displayed by him and that Israel has to be extra careful in the next steps.

But, its decision generally does justice with Israel, because though considered SA claims, still didn't gave them a real or at least not an urgent plausibility, at least to how I interpret what I heard.

If the court thought that SA claims are really plausible, it would demand Israel to stop or sustain the war, what didn't happen.

So if to sum it up: A fair decision of the court towards Israel.

In my opinion Owen Jones is stuck on an emotional tunnel view and hope he will grow out of that.

But this doesn't mean he isn't right that there are serious problems in Gaza because of the war.

I try to be fair as much as possible here after Leo's request but also cannot hold inside my feeling of inproportional focusing only on one side's responsibility to the situation.

Edited January 26 by Nivsch

[Vrubel]

Owen Jones is king of the mushy-minds.

 

 

[zazen]

Owen Jones can be overly emotional though he does provide good information. The court took the middle way. Basically agreed with South Africa and declared plausibility of genocide but didn't go all the way in calling for cease fire which South Africa requested - only other measures to civilize the military operation through : aid provision, no harm to civilians, incitement of hate (a lot of the Israeli government ministers) to be punishable, and for action on all these to be reported within a month. The secondary affects will now come from Western nations and how they respond to pressure Israel now that a plausible case has been made. Surely, no nation wants the stain of plausible genocide to be brushed on them - especially not for leaders during a election year which can hurt their chances of re-election.

Edited January 26 by zazen

[Vrubel]

“Mushy-mindedness” is an interesting concept where you have a certain narrative and every new raw information piece that goes trough your mind is automatically and lazily filtered and manipulated in such a way that it fits your narrative.

I am pleasantly surprised at how level headed the court order is.

 

Edited January 26 by Vrubel

[Danioover9000]

@Vrubel

14 hours ago, Vrubel said:

@Leo Gura If you mean me, I am sharing incredible insight about Israeli society for your understanding. You value understanding right? 

In all fairness I think I have shown that, I have no problem humbling my self when a person is intelligent and reasonable. 

Though some of the people here give Islamic republic of Iran vibes. Guess that’s fine. 

 

Honestly I am kinda annoyed and ask for a retraction of the threat. If I cannot post with authenticity you might as well ban me now. 

   If you're being honest with yourself, you've been in a lot of heated arguments pushing your bias lately, instead of trying to steel man the pro Palestinian position and taking it slow. Even outside this thread this is a consistent pattern with you.

   Obviously a bit guilty myself here, but I at least slow down, breath, and try to argue both sides fairly.

[Danioover9000]

@Lila9

On 2024-01-25 at 6:57 AM, Lila9 said:

I agree, this is very important. This is the real key to change.

Someone should take positive ownership of them. All these human rights organizations, including UNRA, who hang there could do that, but instead, they covertly cooperate with Hamas and other Islamist terrorist organizations that indoctrinate these children and put guns in their hands.

Many social justice warriors in the world speak in the name of these children, as if they really care about them, but none of the adults among them aim to protect them from Hamas and the toxic ideology that creates generations of terrorists.

They simp, glorify and idealize these Islamists in their head, see them as heros and as legitimate freedom fighters, as if rape and killing babies is a legitimate act of freedom.

Instead of blaming Israel for defending itself against terrorists, which puts the future generation of Palestinians in countinoius suffering for them and for Israel, someone should hold these terrorists accountable for their anti-Israel, antisemitic, and Islamist toxic ideology, not to mention their horrific October 7 crimes.

If there is no one in the world who can stand against them, they shouldn't be surprised if Israel does that. If they don't like the way Israel does that, they can go and do it themselves.

 

   I maybe partly agree here.

   Take ownership of Palestinian children?

   Some SJWs do, as most in terms of Spiral Dynamics stages of development they're at stage green, where you'll find most humanists with humanitarian values, egalitarianism, feminism, multiculturalism, animal welfare, environmentalism, new age thinking, anti culture movement, hippie communes, witches, supernatural/paranormal practices, occult, SJWs, most left to far left ideologies like liberalism, democrats, socialism, anarchism, post modernism, et cetera. Shifting the blame to the most vocal group, like those in Tik Tok or Twitter SJWs, isn't right because they're only some, only the minority of most stage greens.

   They may appear to glorify terrorism or HAMMAs, but in their POV some appear as freedom fighters. You do know about relativism right? ONE MAN'S TERRORIST IS ANOTHER MAN'S FREEDOM FIGHTER?

   How is shifting the blame towards HAMMAs more and Israel/IDF less, going to solve this situation? That's like cutting the leaves of the weed, only  focus on surface level problems, and not solving the root of this issue, pulling the WHOLE WEED OUT, leaves, flower, and roots. Even if I grant you that HAMMAs is destroyed, how would that stop another terrorist group rising up in response to Palestinian lands shrinking, to very low water and food and electricity in Gaza, to genocidal intents/actions by IDF displacing Gazans, to the deep revenge they feel to IDF killing a lot of women and children just to get to HAMMAs?

   

[Danioover9000]

@zazen

6 hours ago, zazen said:

Peace and love.

👍

[Danioover9000]

   Would this be part of genocidal intent?

 

[_Archangel_]

One of the biggest problems i see on this topic is that poeple over concentrate on posting clips, videos and chronicles of isolated events of either side supposedly doing evil shit, in an an attempt to make the other side look evil.

I think instead that the focus should be on detecting the broader sistematic issues that have their roots in the historical context of the region, and still have repercussion on both Israel and Palestine today. This should make the discussion more fruitful, because counter-intuitively, the more you go back in contemporary history the less subjected to interpretation an event is.

[Karmadhi]

4 hours ago, Nivsch said:

The problem with this approach is that in that way the whole notion of responsibility is completely diminished.

Why? Because everything, but everything, can be "understood" if we study for enough time the psychology behind it.

If we will investigate it enough, we will understand why Nazis started the war and killed 6 million Jews, gays, 'disabled' and more groups.

That is the point when 'understanding the other side reasons' paradigm exposes its limits, looses its meaning and starts to eat itself.

From those things we can conclude that every action of anyone, must also be examined under the responsibility lens. Nobody is exempted from it. No matter what is his stage of development and how his emotions or mental health or state is.

Comparing Nazi motives is not the same. Jews did not kick Germans out of their home, take their land, murder them or deny them rights. It was actually Germans that did this to Jews (like most European countries) through centuries. So it is a false comparison.

First of all regarding "celebrating Hamas attack". 

How would people know from the start they targeted civilians and raped, killed kids etc? Maybe I am wrong here but in our news for example, it did not give these details until a while after the attack. So my first impression was that people of Gaza broke out from their massive prison and started killing Israeli security and military personnel. I did not know they did the horrible stuff until some days later. Maybe the people in Gaza thought the same? It is quite fine with me if they celebrate IDF soldiers being attacked or the walls breaking down. Obviously celebrating that civilians and kids were killed, women raped etc is wrong.

Secondly, can you really blame the children's? What makes people so mad at this war is that like 40% of deaths/injuries are children's. To me they are a third party, totally avoid of responsibility. A Norwegian study put the median age (not average) of the victims in Gaza to be 5 years old. 

This is why people and liberals/leftists are so angry at Israel.

And blaming Hamas for all 12.000 dead children's is massive shameless scapegoat. I really doubt if Israel actually tried properly, those 12.000 would be far less. 

Just the notion that we will not bomb an apartment building housing dozens of people because we know a terrorist is currently there. That policy alone would save tons of children's.

Best analogy I have seen on this: "If a school shooter forced himself into a shopping mall, using all the people that happen to be there as human shields, would it be ok to bomb the whole shopping mall"? Imagine if USA started doing this in America. People would totally loose their shit. 

I do not know why it is so hard for Israelis to accept that this policy is wrong?

I mean it is not hard for people like me or Zazan to accept that Hamas targeting civilians was wrong and the people responsible should be punished. Do you really think if we magically found and gathered all Hamas people responsible for killing civilians, the world would pardon them? So where is the "Hamas love" that Pro Israel constantly say anytime we criticize Israelis war actions and policies.

And before you say: "You seem to tolerate Hamas". It is not that we tolerate Hamas, it is that we think and see that the people dying on the response are NOT Hamas in majority. Therefore you are killing the wrong people.

Hope its clear.

Edited January 26 by Karmadhi

[Nivsch]

@Karmadhi Sorry but you do a symmetry between I even ashamed to repeat on what, and also basically deny 7.10. I cannot comment to this kind of thing. Think what you want. A reasonable discussion it is not.

Edited January 26 by Nivsch

[Heaven]

Please ban @Karmadhi for close mindedness and repetition of agenda. 
I thought we can make some progress about you keep repeating how the other side is wrong and how Gazanians are the only victim here.

For the evolution of humanity you should always look on both sides. This will make you less mad and angry.

[Karmadhi]

4 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

also basically deny 7.10.

The comment which you replied to had quite a part of it mentioned the 7.10 attack. What denial are you talking about?

[Vrubel]

The most vile thing is that @Lila9 got banned while in a discussion with a deeply biased mushmind who denied/heavily downplayed 7/10 atrocities. But thats okey I guess!?

But if you’re an Israeli expressing your very reasonable points you get banned. What a load of bullshit.

Edited January 26 by Vrubel

[Heaven]

1 hour ago, Danioover9000 said:

   Would this be part of genocidal intent?

 

I saw nothing but an opinion. No facts at all. If Israel would try to kill civilians it would be done a long time ago.

[Danioover9000]

@_Archangel_

2 hours ago, _Archangel_ said:

One of the biggest problems i see on this topic is that poeple over concentrate on posting clips, videos and chronicles of isolated events of either side supposedly doing evil shit, in an an attempt to make the other side look evil.

I think instead that the focus should be on detecting the broader sistematic issues that have their roots in the historical context of the region, and still have repercussion on both Israel and Palestine today. This should make the discussion more fruitful, because counter-intuitively, the more you go back in contemporary history the less subjected to interpretation an event is.

   So, in your view, when most of this thread cherry picks/selection biases by selective pictures/clips/videos of either side, that's a problem? Even though part of the human condition is by default selection bias, confirmation bias due to limited time, energy and attention?

   What if trying to shift the focus to detecting broader systemic issues that have roots in historical context of that region is just another form of deflection and distraction from the current specific issues? What if this is happening but the well is poisoned much earlier? For example, that is actually happening, but it's through the lens of pro Israel/Palestinians, viewing the history of their region but then selective and partial to their biases, to reverse justify their pro Israel/Palestine positions, through their propaganda, which poisons any good faith attempts to view this situation, so what do we do when we're fed with propaganda, lies and misinformation?

   IDK about the more we go back to contemporary history the less subjected to interpretation an event is. Feels like we're trying to downplay this issue and distance ourselves from this by going back to a more 'distant' timeline away from this current emotional conflict in Israel/ Palestine, it's like you're trying to tell us to back away, to go to distant pasts, away from the current situation because it's too uncomfortable.