Posted January 23 (edited) @zazen I wanted to comment but this isn't worth it. Tell me when the 7.10 denial sub thread will end 🙂 Edited January 23 by Nivsch 🌻 Thinking independently about the spiral stages themselves is important for going through them in an organic, efficient way. If you stick to an external idea about how a stage should be you lose touch with its real self customized process trying to happen inside you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 23 6 minutes ago, Nivsch said: nd the Allied killed 350,000 to 500,000 in WW2. Numbers are meaningless without big picture context. Yes you are right. They were fighting the Nazis which killed close to 25.000.000 civilians all around Europe. So around 71 times more civilians. They are not called devils for no reason. Now tell me, how many did Hamas kill? Did they kill 3.5 million Israeli civilians which would be the equivalent of this? You think people would protest about Gaza if Hamas attacked killed that many Israelis? Scale matters. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 23 @zazen Appreciate the insights. Thanks for sharing. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 23 (edited) @Karmadhi There is only one side who initiates attacks against civilians and another side who never (99.9% of its society and the decades long proven policy) wants to do anything unless provoked and acts against the attacks source. Numbers worth nothing out of context. Edited January 23 by Nivsch 🌻 Thinking independently about the spiral stages themselves is important for going through them in an organic, efficient way. If you stick to an external idea about how a stage should be you lose touch with its real self customized process trying to happen inside you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 23 1 minute ago, kenway said: Relevant, from same study. IDF confirmed that they are looking for Israelies corpses in those cemeteries. People Hamas kidnapped and killed in captivity, their bodies should to be returned to their families in Israel. Don't worry, they will put everything in place, if that's bothering you. "Never be afraid to sit a while and think.” ― Lorraine Hansberry Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 23 On 1/21/2024 at 10:40 PM, Karmadhi said: I am not saying that everything was perfect but I am sure Arabs treated them far better than Europeans did. Just the Holocaust is enough to differentiate the two. Now regarding Israel, the issue is I think that Israel would basically force native Palestinian Muslims to live under a Jewish state and they did not want that. Also, most importantly they did not want to give up their land to European Jew settlers. I am curious, why did not the White European Jew settlers live under Palestine and the authorities of Palestine could be a mixed government between Jews and Muslims? Similar to Lebanon which is Christian/Muslim. Or they could live as a minority group in Palestine depending on the demographics. White European Jews could come in but the native Palestinians would keep their houses and businesses. It would be similar to Syrians immigrating to Germany these last few years. Why create a totally different state? I don't think that it was reasonable for European Jews, which were educated and more developed than the Palestinians to be an under a Palestinian goverment. Those people came to the conclusion that the best solution is to built a state of their own, in their native land, in which they wouldn't be at the mercy of any nation. Because history proved that living under someone else in control isn't safe. They could build a state together with the Palestinians, but they didn't agree on the most basic things and didn't share the same values, so this wasn't possible. Still isn't. And thanks God there is an Israeli state with a strong army. Better to lose thostands of people, but having a state and a strong army, rather than loosing millions of people and being in the mercy others, without any protection. I think that even if Israel was built in Uganda or elsewhere in the world, someone would have something to say about it or would have tried to fight it. "Never be afraid to sit a while and think.” ― Lorraine Hansberry Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 23 13 minutes ago, Nivsch said: There is only one side who initiates attacks against civilians and another side who never wants to do anything unless provoked and acts against the attacks source. Numbers worth nothing out of context. There is daily provocation with the inhumane illegal way they get treated. So is the illegal taking of their land. All attacks although wrong, are very provocated. Even Leo has admitted this much. The head of UN and many organizations said the same. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 23 (edited) @Karmadhi Dont know what is "the way they treated". They are an independent state in Gaza and under the PLO in West bank. The settlements problem could end if they would agree to only 1 out of 4653 offers they got. Edited January 23 by Nivsch 🌻 Thinking independently about the spiral stages themselves is important for going through them in an organic, efficient way. If you stick to an external idea about how a stage should be you lose touch with its real self customized process trying to happen inside you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 23 If you support Islamic fundamentalism so eagrly, don't be surprised if... "Never be afraid to sit a while and think.” ― Lorraine Hansberry Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 23 "Never be afraid to sit a while and think.” ― Lorraine Hansberry Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 23 (edited) 39 minutes ago, Lila9 said: They could build a state together with the Palestinians, but they didn't agree on the most basic things and didn't share the same values, so this wasn't possible. Still isn't. Palestinians are 20% of Israels population. Pro-Israeli's talk about how they have a great life and no apartheid within Israel so how are you guys able to live side by side there? Are the Palestinians in West Bank and Gaza a different type of Palestinian. I struggle to see how this all ends. A issue with the two state solution is that from the West Bank there is a direct sight of Tel Aviv and Ben Gurion airport - the elevated position and proximity means direct attacks and snipers are within range. I can understand why Israel would be hesitant about this, especially after bringing so much bad blood between them and Palestinians. Then you have settlers already placed in West Bank who are more extreme and armed now which makes them impossible to move. Then with Gaza it has been made uninhabitable and is still 'too risky' for Israeli residents to be living near such a place in Israel's eyes. So the two state solution the world is calling for seems difficult to achieve and something that Israel won't even allow. What you will effectively have is a militarily controlled land where Palestinians live but who aren't part of Israeli democracy - that is basically occupation and apartheid, similar to what is already the situation but without Hamas and with military check points within Gaza similar to West Bank. Edited January 23 by zazen Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 23 The elderly woman speaks the true about Hamas and the Al Jazeera Journalist tries to twist her words: "Never be afraid to sit a while and think.” ― Lorraine Hansberry Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 23 (edited) 40 minutes ago, Nivsch said: They are an independent state in Gaza and under the PLO in West bank. A state has its own laws, capital, border air and sea control, airports and ports, sovereignty in the fullest sense including to its own resources (water in West Bank and Gas off of Gaza). Why would the PLO who run their own 'independent state' allow settlement expansion? Palestinians may be governed under the pinky finger of Hamas and the PLO but both occupied territories are under the thumb of Israel, and the thumb is more dominant than the pinky - there's a reason people play thumb wars. If a jail guard exits a jail cell but still has the keys to that jail cell, is the prisoner really free or is he still occupied and controlled but this time from the outside. Edited January 23 by zazen Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 23 @Lila9 I think the 2nd video you posted was more credible than the 1st one. The body language of the older woman was genuine, but I wasn't feeling that first guy. Thanks for posting. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 23 (edited) 9 minutes ago, zazen said: A state has its own laws, capital, border air and sea control, airports and ports, sovereignty in the fullest sense including to its own resources (water in West Bank and Gas off of Gaza). Palestinians may be governed under the pinky finger of Hamas and the PLO but both occupied territories are under the thumb of Israel and the thumb is more dominant than the pinky - there's a reason people play thumb wars. This is their problem after all the suicide bombing they did and when a terror organization is in charge there, they cant expect maritime and air ways. Gaza shares border with egypt too. Edited January 23 by Nivsch 🌻 Thinking independently about the spiral stages themselves is important for going through them in an organic, efficient way. If you stick to an external idea about how a stage should be you lose touch with its real self customized process trying to happen inside you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 23 59 minutes ago, Lila9 said: IDF confirmed that they are looking for Israelies corpses in those cemeteries. People Hamas kidnapped and killed in captivity, their bodies should to be returned to their families in Israel. Don't worry, they will put everything in place, if that's bothering you. The CNN report would indicate that the damage is terminally significant, to the extent that many are completely destroyed. I admire your optimism, but find it hard to imagine the IDF having the time or will to rebuild any of these cemeteries. Besides, as the highlighted passage from the study showed, none of the Palestinian cemeteries from the Nakba were ever restored... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 23 @Nivsch 12 minutes ago, Nivsch said: This is their problem after all the suicide bombing they did and when a terror organization is in charge there, they cant expect maritime and air ways. Gaza shares border with egypt too. Is it always their problem, and never Israel's fault? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 23 (edited) @Danioover9000 This is always the result of a positive feedback between the two sides, but they didn't let Israel any choice but to not let them this physical accesses, and they are the ones who refused to any proposal to an independent state and chose terror. Edited January 23 by Nivsch 🌻 Thinking independently about the spiral stages themselves is important for going through them in an organic, efficient way. If you stick to an external idea about how a stage should be you lose touch with its real self customized process trying to happen inside you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 23 Owen Jones and Alex de Waal Analysis of the use of starvation as a weapon and the imminent starvation crisis in Gaza. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
