Posted January 22 1 hour ago, Bobby_2021 said: Both rejects the two state solution. I guess you can take off some time to criticize hamas as well. But they are irrelevant. The Palestinian authority in West Bank is what matters and they seem to be open to it. Hamas is disowned even by most Arabs. I dont know why you keep bringing them up. They suck. The end. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 22 (edited) @lina @Leo Gura Ok so both sides were to blame quite equally. I tried to search for one side who "started" it but I could not find. Edited January 22 by Nivsch 🌻 Thinking independently about the spiral stages themselves is important for going through them in an organic, efficient way. If you stick to an external idea about how a stage should be you lose touch with its real self customized process trying to happen inside you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 22 (edited) Palestinians are equally hostile to other countries too. Israel is not the source of the problem but an another trigger for them. Edited January 22 by Nivsch 🌻 Thinking independently about the spiral stages themselves is important for going through them in an organic, efficient way. If you stick to an external idea about how a stage should be you lose touch with its real self customized process trying to happen inside you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 22 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Karmadhi said: But they are irrelevant. The Palestinian authority in West Bank is what matters and they seem to be open to it. Hamas is disowned even by most Arabs. I dont know why you keep bringing them up. They suck. The end. With that I agree. But no, the PLO are not open at all too and never were. They too rejected every proposal placed on their desk. Edited January 22 by Nivsch 🌻 Thinking independently about the spiral stages themselves is important for going through them in an organic, efficient way. If you stick to an external idea about how a stage should be you lose touch with its real self customized process trying to happen inside you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 22 (edited) 49 minutes ago, Karmadhi said: Israel is a first world country and you claim it to be a democracy. Israel exists in the Middle East, on contested land, where all their neighbors would like to see them exterminated. It's also a tiny country and a new country. And it's full of religious zealots. Edited January 22 by Leo Gura You are God. You are Truth. You are Love. You are Infinity. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 22 (edited) 27 minutes ago, Nivsch said: With that I agree. But no, the PLO are not open at all too and never were. They too rejected every proposal placed on their desk. I am sure they would be if you give them a fair deal. I saw from the Oslo stuff that even Israelis said "We would not have taken that deal if we were in Palestine place". So it depends on the deal. Give them a 50-50 land split and they will accept im sure. Also with Israeli genocide on Gaza, I can assume West Bank population will be more radicalized and peace may be harder. That is the consequence of inhumane policies. But I think a 50-50 split of what was the Palestine mandate would put an end to this cursed history. Edited January 22 by Karmadhi Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 22 11 minutes ago, Leo Gura said: Israel exists in the Middle East, on contested land, where all their neighbors would like to seem them exterminated. It's also a tiny country and a new country Then how come the previous leaders of Israel did not have these corruption charges, nor did they try to undermine democracy or rule of law? What you said is irrelevant of what I am saying. I am talking about Israeli internal affairs, not how they handle their neighbors. 12 minutes ago, Leo Gura said: And it's full of religious zealots. Which Bibi is one of them. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 22 (edited) 43 minutes ago, Nivsch said: Ok so both sides were to blame quite equally. I tried to search for one side who "started" it but I could not find Apparently people in South East Asia and Japan used to be dark skinned and look different but then Chinese settlers colonized those parts and drove them out. So Japanese are also settlers Also Bantus in Africa colonized the southern parts of Africa, driving the indigious Khosian people to near extintion. Read Guns Germs and Steel. It is very interesting to see the origins of most ethnic groups and realize colonizing happened a lot more than we think and many groups we consider "native" are actually colonizers. We all came from Africa so we are all colonizers. You will never find who drove out who first. Issue is that it is not acceptable anymore with 21st Morality norms therefore we loose our shit when it happens now. Just like the Hamas attack was textbook military practice in the past but it is considered totally unacceptable by today's morals. Edited January 22 by Karmadhi Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 22 (edited) 1 hour ago, Karmadhi said: I am sure they would be if you give them a fair deal. I saw from the Oslo stuff that even Israelis said "We would not have taken that deal if we were in Palestine place". So it depends on the deal. Give them a 50-50 land split and they will accept im sure. They got almost 50-50 in 1947. They were offered 67 lines. The 90's agreements were all trust building tries. The whole world tried to help them including Russia and the Arab League but it didn't help. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annapolis_Conference Edited January 22 by Nivsch 🌻 Thinking independently about the spiral stages themselves is important for going through them in an organic, efficient way. If you stick to an external idea about how a stage should be you lose touch with its real self customized process trying to happen inside you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 22 27 minutes ago, Nivsch said: @lina @Leo Gura Ok so both sides were to blame quite equally. I tried to search for one side who "started" it but I could not find. I honestly don't know all the details about the Lebanese civil war but a quick google search says this: The beginning of the civil war is typically dated to April 13, 1975, when the Phalangists attacked a bus taking Palestinians to a refugee camp at Tall al-Zaʿtar, Lebanon. The attack escalated an intermittent cycle of violence into a more general battle between the Phalangists and the LNM, whose coalition of Lebanese leftists and Muslims supported the PLO’s cause. https://www.britannica.com/event/Lebanese-Civil-War The Phalangists were a right wing nationalist militia. It seems there was long history of sectarian clashes in Lebanon and got triggered also due to the arrival of Palestinian refugees in Lebanon (thanks to Israel). 38 minutes ago, Nivsch said: Palestinians are equally hostile to other countries too. Israel is not the source of the problem but an another trigger for them. I disagree with this. The way I see it is that Palestinian violence have mostly been a form of retaliation. While the source of violence have started from far-right separatist racist groups. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 22 (edited) 21 minutes ago, Karmadhi said: Then how come the previous leaders of Israel did not have these corruption charges, nor did they try to undermine democracy or rule of law? What you said is irrelevant of what I am saying. You are being small-minded. I am speaking of larger things. What you call "undermining democracy and rule of law" is a matter of perspective. It's important that you can appreciate a person without needing his perspective to agree with yours. I am not here to whitewash Netanyahu. But I appreciate him as a serious politician. Same as I do with Putin. These are serious people, not buffoons like Trump. Quote Which Bibi is one of them. No he isn't. Edited January 22 by Leo Gura You are God. You are Truth. You are Love. You are Infinity. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 22 (edited) 1 hour ago, lina said: he beginning of the civil war is typically dated to April 13, 1975, when the Phalangists attacked a bus taking Palestinians to a refugee camp at Tall al-Zaʿtar, Lebanon. The attack escalated an intermittent cycle of violence into a more general battle between the Phalangists and the LNM, whose coalition of Lebanese leftists and Muslims supported the PLO’s cause. This is only a result of a complex positive feedback happened before that. 1 hour ago, lina said: also due to the arrival of Palestinian refugees in Lebanon (thanks to Israel). Thanks to the fact they were kicked out of Jordan too. 1 hour ago, lina said: I disagree with this. The way I see it is that Palestinian violence have mostly been a form of retaliation. While the source of violence have started from far-right separatist racist groups. Its interesting they can never get along with roughly ANYONE. Edited January 22 by Nivsch 🌻 Thinking independently about the spiral stages themselves is important for going through them in an organic, efficient way. If you stick to an external idea about how a stage should be you lose touch with its real self customized process trying to happen inside you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 22 1 minute ago, Leo Gura said: No he isn't. He is not but he is happy to use their support to remain in power and achieve his goals. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 22 (edited) 3 minutes ago, lina said: He is not but he is happy to use their support to remain in power and achieve his goals. It's more nuanced than that. The religious right is a powerful constituency in Israel, just like in the US. That's part of democracy. He can't just ignore them. Edited January 22 by Leo Gura You are God. You are Truth. You are Love. You are Infinity. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 22 @Karmadhi Regarding what Leo said about Bibi being a serious politician and what Lina mentioned above ie Bibi not being a religious zealot but using them as a political base to garner/maintain power. This demonstrates political skill which is what Leo appreciates, not necessarily his soul. 5 hours ago, zazen said: No doubt Bibi is charismatic. This old clip of him when he was young shows this very well - strong voice, coherent and eloquent, well dressed, cares a lot for his nation - oozing charisma. But look at him today and he has dead eyes compared to the seemingly caring ones he had when younger. He’s still passionate, but passionate about his own success. Politics and the dirtiness of it has consumed him. It’s possible to appreciate competence without appreciating someone’s level of consciousness. Similar to sports athletes - you can appreciate the skillset and competence on display without liking their politics, personality or how they are in their personal lives - athletes who cheat or neglect family for example. You can appreciate someone’s skillset of leadership which has facets of cunning, shrewdness and manipulation - but not appreciate where exactly they’re leading to or how they go about it. Leadership is power - and power is its own allure and intoxication regardless of its morality. Just like the charismatic player who breaks hearts, political leaders lacking morality but possessing the skillset to lead often screw people over on their way to the top building a army of enemies behind them that could one day conspire their downfall. Often, these types of leaders will never know peace - their handshake means nothing and the cost of material success is that they sold their soul. The best and worst of men are cunning, shrewd and possess manipulative abilities - it’s how it’s used and to what end that matters. Do they use them benevolently or let it consume them like a malignant cancer. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 22 (edited) On 1/22/2024 at 8:44 AM, Bobby_2021 said: Hamas leaders and Benjamin Netanyahu agrees with each other more than the participants of this thread. Both rejects the two state solution. I guess you can take off some time to criticize hamas as well. Could be a angered and delusional response to Bibi saying he wants to control all the land from the river to the sea just two days ago which is also a angered and delusional response to October 7th. Nonetheless, both parties are not good for peacemaking. The reason for Hamas's popularity is probably because they represent a warrior class / mentality - not as pacifist or weak spined like the party in West Bank which hasn't done anything to stop settlement expansion. When people are in oppressive situations they revert to the warrior types to stop that oppression before they can think about who is more competent at running and building a state. If someones being attacked the natural reflex is to focus on defending the attack before they can think about even shaking the hands of the attacker. The first priority is protection from oppression, nation building comes secondary. Israel won't get rid of Hamas or anything that takes its place until it gets rid of the conditions that inevitably lead to Hamas. The presence of Hamas is like the presence of sunscreen in Israel - a response to harsh environmental conditions. Hamas isn't some external alien entity imposed on Palestinians but naturally emerges as a result of conditions imposed on them within their homeland. Just as blood surely rises from a wound, resistance - even violent resistance arises from oppression and occupation. That's why a lot of criticism is directed at Israel more so than Palestinians because the root is the one causing the wound. Another issue with suffering and trauma is the victim hood weaponisation of it leads to entitlement. The suffering in Gaza can cause Hamas or Palestinians in general to become more entitled to the point of not being wiling to concede in any negotiations - the same way historical Jewish suffering has also caused Israeli's to become entitled. Both feel wronged to the point of stale mate negotiations that go no where - but Israel projects its feeling of being wronged by others (Europeans) in Jewish history onto the Palestinians who never committed such wrongs. Edited January 23 by zazen Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 22 1 hour ago, Leo Gura said: What you call "undermining democracy and rule of law" is a matter of perspective Increasing corruption is not a matter of perspective. A society with stronger rule of law is more evolved and less corrupt. You say yourself minimizing corruption is one of society's goals to aim for. Making the constitutional court your private playground is doing exactly the opposite of minimizing corruption. 1 hour ago, Leo Gura said: These are serious people, not buffoons like Trump. I am not very informed on Trump but I see he is on his way to win a second presidency and is for sure going to be the republican nominee. If people got a taste of 4 years of Trump and they still want to elect him, it means he did stuff right. Also, many people around the world like Trump because they say "no wars started under him, look at how much shit happened under Biden". But the fact that Americans liked his presidency enough to give him a second try shows he has some stuff going on for him. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 22 @lina 3 hours ago, lina said: They're gonna be the next North Korea at this point. Why not also implement the intranet while you're at it? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 22 Yeah, Imma pass on vacation/holiday to Israel until this conflict settles down. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
