Posted January 21 (edited) @Nabd Because Netanyahu didn't want to negotiate with the Palestinians out of personal fears to his position probably. The far-right wing is of course a problem too. I agree. And no. The responsibility to someone to not become so toxic is always within the someone! Because if you say that hamas is just a chemical reaction of the consequences, then you must use the same logic to Israel policy and exemp it also from any responsibility because you now using a deterministic (anti free will) point of view - which is we can agree a problematic pov. Edited January 21 by Nivsch 🌻 Thinking independently about the spiral stages themselves is important for going through them in an organic, efficient way. If you stick to an external idea about how a stage should be you lose touch with its real self customized process trying to happen inside you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 21 (edited) 31 minutes ago, Nabd said: I dont hate Israel but Israel literally created Hamas. You can check the documents yourself and connect the dots. Why didn't you reply to anything else i said? Like why did Israel need to fund Hamas lets say if not totally create it? You guys keep preaching how Palestinians dont want peace right? Well why fund a terrorist group that doesnt want peace? Israeli officials admitted they fund Hamas to not allow a Palestinian state. Why not take this information into your world view and understanding of politics instead of crusading against poor powerless ignorants in Gaza? As I commented earlier: Supporting Hamas (by Israel) to hurt PLO/Fatah was done strategically before Hamas became dangerous (i.e. strated killing Israelies). Hamas started as an "innocent" religious movement or at least, that's how they presented themselves to Israel at the beginning. Nothing new. At that time when Hamas wasn't dangerous and PLO/Fatah was, it makes sense that Israel wanted to get rid of Fatah by supporting their competitors, Hamas, Which was a huge mistake because it turned out that Hamas was more brutal. I read about this in a book that I talk about a lot here because it's is a very reliable source for understanding the conflict as it was written by Hamas' founder son who was close to the people who were behind the scenes of these historical events. Supported or funded by Israel for stratigical purposes is not the same as created by Israel. Hamas was created by- Muslim Palestinians. Edited January 21 by Lila9 "Never be afraid to sit a while and think.” ― Lorraine Hansberry Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 21 (edited) @Nabd sounds like conspiracy to me. You say here far reaching claims I would ask you to attach links as evidence, because to me it doesn't make sense at all. Netanyahu funded hamas yes. The other things - I don't think so. Not as an official policy of Israel for sure. Israel fights hamas every single day in the West Bank since 2002. Edited January 21 by Nivsch 🌻 Thinking independently about the spiral stages themselves is important for going through them in an organic, efficient way. If you stick to an external idea about how a stage should be you lose touch with its real self customized process trying to happen inside you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 21 Hamas is the military unit of what ought to be a Palestinian state. Hamas was not created by Israel, but Israel pours gasoline on the fires of hurt and injustice, which emboldens Hamas. You are God. You are Truth. You are Love. You are Infinity. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 21 (edited) @Nabd I would advise you to dig deeper into what makes someone “native” to the land. you seem to have a narrow view of this (which is understandable I am not being judgmental). For me for example it was always clear as day that White Afrikaners were native to South Africa because they lived there for 400 years+. You can argue that the Bantu blacks were colonizers because they came in and displaced the “true native” Xhosa. More perhaps “bizarrely” if you would tell a white Rhodesian speaking with a perfect English accent that he is not native to the darkest of Africa, it will just not register in his mind. Why so? because he is connected to the soil and land he builds and defends. A white Rhodesian will feel just as “native” as the black. I am not comparing Israel to European colonizers, because Israels claims and necessity for existence goes way deeper. But I want to make something clear about the mechanisms of being “native” and connected to the land. Edited January 21 by Vrubel Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 21 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Leo Gura said: Hamas is the military unit of what ought to be a Palestinian state. Hamas was not created by Israel, but Israel pours gasoline on the fires of hurt and injustice, which emboldens Hamas. I agree about this pattern. Less about the degree of injustice (but not negate it completely) because I think they have much more responsibility to their outcome than the "too easy life" they get from this thread. Edited January 21 by Nivsch 🌻 Thinking independently about the spiral stages themselves is important for going through them in an organic, efficient way. If you stick to an external idea about how a stage should be you lose touch with its real self customized process trying to happen inside you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 21 Just now, Nabd said: Why do you find it hard to believe that there is a faction in Israel which works on getting rid of all Palestinians? Post the documents here. 1 minute ago, Nabd said: It doesn't matter because the claim is Israel wants peace but Palestinians dont. If true then why fund Hamas? A terrorist group that definitely doesn't want peace? As I said, in the beginning, Hamas started as a charity whose aim was to bring Muslims closer to religion, this is how they started (Dawah). At this time they committed 0 killings against Israelies, while Fatah (fueled by PLO) was already engaged in terrorism and killed Israelies. For Israel, PLO/Fatah was more dangerous than Hamas at that time. They wanted to get rid of Fatah by supporting Hamas, exploiting that fact that there was an ideological conflict between the two, unaware that Hamas will commit terror attacks in the future. "Never be afraid to sit a while and think.” ― Lorraine Hansberry Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 21 Jewish country is justified after the holocaust. The UN agreed they will live in Israel. So they didn’t just occupied the land. Israel is the Jewish country for almost a 100 years. They are not going to move anywhere. The acceptance should be there to begin with after holocaust. Or maybe there should be a WW3 for Muslim countries to accept it. Israel doesn’t oppress Syria, Iran, Lebanon, Qatar. Still those countries are doing anything they can to terrorize Israel. It was never about Palestinians and Israel it is much broader. 9/11 Didn’t happen because America is oppressing the Middle East but because of power games. The history repeat itself. Just in a more complex way. Hamas = Nazis = Isis. To try to justify their actions is to believe a story that they are telling you. Guess what? They are lying to you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 21 (edited) 32 minutes ago, Nabd said: This means we are on the same page. Israelis born in Israel are native to the Levant. Their grandparents or parents who came from Europe are colonizers. If they were really interested in making Germans pay back then they could've had their own country as German or European Jews or whatever inside Germany, not in Palestine where they clearly were in the wrong for stealing land. Their kids however are native. The argument I stated - which is a psychological one - is that even that first generation is “native”. Edited January 21 by Vrubel Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 21 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Heaven said: Jewish country is justified after the holocaust. The UN agreed they will live in Israel. So they didn’t just occupied the land. Israel is the Jewish country for almost a 100 years. They are not going to move anywhere. The acceptance should be there to begin with after holocaust. Or maybe there should be a WW3 for Muslim countries to accept it. Israel doesn’t oppress Syria, Iran, Lebanon, Qatar. Still those countries are doing anything they can to terrorize Israel. It was never about Palestinians and Israel it is much broader. 9/11 Didn’t happen because America is oppressing the Middle East but because of power games. The history repeat itself. Just in a more complex way. Hamas = Nazis = Isis. To try to justify their actions is to believe a story that they are telling you. Guess what? They are lying to you. Exactly, isn’t it weird that Arab leaders that care for stability and advancement don’t have beef with Israel but only terrorist lunatics led by Iran care for destroying Israel🤔 Edited January 21 by Vrubel Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 21 49 minutes ago, Lila9 said: Supporting Hamas (by Israel) to hurt PLO/Fatah was done strategically before Hamas became dangerous (i.e. strated killing Israelies). Hamas started as an "innocent" religious movement or at least, that's how they presented themselves to Israel at the beginning. Nothing new. Not remotely true. They were funneling money to Hamas well after declaring them a terrorist organization. And the strategy was to divide the Palestinians so they couldn’t get a state, forcing them to resort to violence, so Israel could respond with more violence. In a sense sacrificing safety of Jews to kill Palestinians. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 21 (edited) 4 hours ago, Leo Gura said: That's empty words. Israel wants land more than they want peace. If that’s true then why’d they give the Sinai back to Egypt in 1979 in exchange for a peace deal? Regarding the Westbank while there are elements that definitely want the land, they didn’t come into possession of that land until Jordan attacked them in 1967 so they took it from them (Israel warned Jordan not to join the war and we won’t attack them). Edited January 21 by Joel3102 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 21 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Joel3102 said: If that’s true then why’d they give the Sinai back to Egypt in 1979 in exchange for a peace deal? I don't know the details but probably because they knew they could not hold onto it for long and I'd bet the quality of that land isn't so great. Edited January 21 by Leo Gura You are God. You are Truth. You are Love. You are Infinity. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 21 3 hours ago, Leo Gura said: Yes, but now we live in the 21st century, where such things are no longer acceptable. Because we're more morally developed. That's the cost of development: you can't act like a genocidal barbarian. 100 years ago you could kick a dog, no problem. Today it is considered a crime in the developed world. The middleast is lower in development overall. Stage red terrorism shouldn't be acceptable nor stage blue/orange occupation and colonization. And those terrorists are not merely spawning out of rebellion. They are funded by wealthy oil rich countries like Iran/Russia because they want to disrupt the globa order and eliminate the jews, if they had the power. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 21 1 hour ago, kenway said: How Israelis Are Brainwashed Lol, when someone, who doesn't know you, tries to make realistic claims about you but it turns out to be full with lies and projections. At least I had a good laugh. What I just watched is the GOAT of propaganda with the mere purpose for incitement against Israel and Israelies. "Never be afraid to sit a while and think.” ― Lorraine Hansberry Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 21 9 hours ago, Lila9 said: the Arab world is known for its sheep mentality Expand on this please. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 21 5 minutes ago, kenway said: Expand on this please. They are anti-Israel because this is what is expected from them, any pro-Israeli hint in the Arab world which doesn't match the pro-palestinian narrative is frowned upon and seen as betrayal and may have drastic consecunsess for the individuals and their families. In Gaza and WB it may end up with executions. People are not allowed to express pro-Israel opinions about the conflict or challenge the Palestinians narrative, there is no room for that or for any form of critical thinking. "Never be afraid to sit a while and think.” ― Lorraine Hansberry Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 21 11 minutes ago, Lila9 said: They are anti-Israel because this is what is expected from them, any pro-Israeli hint in the Arab world which doesn't match the pro-palestinian narrative is frowned upon and seen as betrayal and may have drastic consecunsess for the individuals and their families. In Gaza and WB it may end up with executions. People are not allowed to express pro-Israel opinions about the conflict or challenge the Palestinians narrative, there is no room for that or for any form of critical thinking. I still don't understand your perspective. Why are you using the analogy of sheep specifically? Can you give examples? Also, when you say:- "The Arab world is known for its sheep mentality" Where abouts are they actually known for this? In the Arab world itself, or somewhere else? I'm just trying to understand the Israeli mindset. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 21 10 minutes ago, kenway said: I still don't understand your perspective. Why are you using the analogy of sheep specifically? Can you give examples? Also, when you say:- "The Arab world is known for its sheep mentality" Where abouts are they actually known for this? In the Arab world itself, or somewhere else? I'm just trying to understand the Israeli mindset. See earlier comments, it was my response to a user living in the middle east who claimed that Israelies are sheep. Which is funny because the Arab world is so much better in practicing sheep mentality. I often see more diverse opinions and critical thinking among Israelies and Jews rather than in Arabs and Muslims. "Never be afraid to sit a while and think.” ― Lorraine Hansberry Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
