Posted January 21 4 minutes ago, Nabd said: You are a troll which can't be reasoned with. Jews are not a race. Oriental Jews lived in there homeland before European Jews came. Levantines are descendants of Canaanites and Arameans. Just like Oriental Jews, which makes them Levantine. Which means Levantines are living in their homeland. European Jews homeland is Europe. Being a Muslim is irrelevant. Some Palestinians today were Jews before. This conflict is between a Jewish and a Muslim state, it doesn't matter what cannaties are and who they were, all humans on earth share the same African ansectores. "Never be afraid to sit a while and think.” ― Lorraine Hansberry Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 21 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Nivsch said: What I say is that an existance of a state you don't like is NOT a justification to terror because this is too barbaric childish justification to use. The truth is that the Palestinians are completely free and sorverign in their area and they have to take responsibility to take the offers for a state they have got countless times. Criticising a state doesn’t mean you want it to be erased. It’s being honest about how it came to be and how it currently is - Israel has to right its wrongs and stop committing more wrongs in the present. If Palestinians are completely free and sovereign why are they offered a state? Because they aren’t completely free or sovereign. The ‘number’ of offers is always talked about but never the nature of these offers - because they offer less than a state meeting the international standards for what a state is ie sovereign - words from Israel’s supposed best man for peace that is Rabin. Edited January 21 by zazen Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 21 (edited) @Leo Gura Ok but now this isn't hapenning. To establish a settlement 5 km near your city is still not to kick you out not even close. It is not very fair, but it is light years away (in my opinion) from an opression you must kill children and women to deal with. This is absurd even to think about it. They were offered to end the settlements expansion near their cities ones and for all - 100 times. And refused. Edited January 21 by Nivsch 🌻 Thinking independently about the spiral stages themselves is important for going through them in an organic, efficient way. If you stick to an external idea about how a stage should be you lose touch with its real self customized process trying to happen inside you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 21 @Nabd , @zazen , @Lila9 and @Nivsch, please take a slow deep breath, this exchange is roasting this thread like an oven. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 21 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Nabd said: This is your logic of how states are created. I just used it against you. You and Hamas are two sides of the same coin. Enjoy the terorrism this breeds and may the strongest win! Not even close to "two sides". Only Palestinians use lethal violence deliberatly against citizens (and 0.01% of the settlers). Only Palestinians refused to improve their situation. Only Palestinians have never had a state on their own. Its very interesting why they couldnt establish a state during the last centuries? They had far beyond the required time. Maybe they don't really want to? Maybe they want to stay the victims? What if this is their collective psychological tendency to begin with? Edited January 21 by Nivsch 🌻 Thinking independently about the spiral stages themselves is important for going through them in an organic, efficient way. If you stick to an external idea about how a stage should be you lose touch with its real self customized process trying to happen inside you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 21 6 minutes ago, Nabd said: I am anti Assad, which means I am anti Axis of resistance. Which means I am anti Hamas because these guys genocided Syrians. I also happen to be an atheist. So all this religius bullshit that Jews and Muslims are bought into doesn't affect me. Israel must stay. The Israeli left are allies and should be counted on. I don't have anything against Israelis. But its important to get things right. Israel was created in a certain way and only a true patriot is the one who is capable of criticizing his own country. I am also not interested in this Hamas Israeli war because its bullshit. Iran and Israeli right wing cooperate and help each other. I can understand you and even agree, until your claim that Hamas was created by Israel. 1 minute ago, Nabd said: No. First resistance was secular against Israeli colonization. Jesus christ go read some history! Go see how leftists were fighting against Israel. Islamic fundamentalism wasn't the first response against Israeli colonization. Its actually new and funded by Israel, a thing I keep saying yet you never acknowledge weirdly enough. This is a war between colonizers and natives. It doesn't matter, if it was secular or not. The base of Israel is Jewish, even if the majority are not religious. It is based on Jewish values and tradition. America is a secular country which is based on Christianity, Christian values and tradition, not Judaism, not Islam or Buddhism. Islamic fundamentalism was created in other countries like Egypt and before there was an Israeli state, read history, they called the Muslim Brotherhood. And Hamas was inspired by them, Ahmad Yasin was a Muslim Brotherhood member who founded Hamas with the purpose to be a Muslim Brotherhood brunch in Israel. "Never be afraid to sit a while and think.” ― Lorraine Hansberry Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 21 (edited) @Nabd Sounds you are reacting now emotionally. Don't know how to answer to that. Nothing is personal and there is no competition here. I already answered about the Jews coming thing. Don't know what to add more on top of that. Edited January 21 by Nivsch 🌻 Thinking independently about the spiral stages themselves is important for going through them in an organic, efficient way. If you stick to an external idea about how a stage should be you lose touch with its real self customized process trying to happen inside you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 21 (edited) 28 minutes ago, Nabd said: This is hilarious. You keep mentioning the Jewish homeland and all this bullshit. When I give you a counter claim that Palestinians are descendants of natives (Canaanites). A claim which you can't refute because its DNA, so you say oh it doesn't matter! We are all Africans! If this isnt devilry then I don't know what is. Palestinians are a diverse ethic group, there is no such a thing as Palestine ethnicity. Per their surname it's clear that they came from various countries among the middle east and various tribes. Just because they have some percentage of Cannaties like the Jews, doesn't mean that Israel should be a Muslim state. Edited January 21 by Lila9 "Never be afraid to sit a while and think.” ― Lorraine Hansberry Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 21 (edited) 49 minutes ago, Leo Gura said: Yes, but now we live in the 21st century, where such things are no longer acceptable. Because we're more morally developed. That's the cost of development: you can't act like a genocidal barbarian. 100 years ago you could kick a dog, no problem. Today it is considered a crime in the developed world. You must grasp the uniqueness of Jewish history. The extreme non-militantly of the vast majority of Jews led to the Holocaust, slaughtered like lambs. Only Zionists were able to organize resistance like in the Warsaw Ghetto, In the swamps of Belarus and the Sobibor deatcamp uprising. Zionists ultimately led the Jews to a country of their own. personal note: Thats why I always will be a Zionist. I sincerely believe so that my ancestors came from Israel. Either way I feel highly connected with Jewish history. But when it comes down to it. The bottom line is that Jews need Israel for survival. Edited January 21 by Vrubel Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 21 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Nabd said: You never acknowledged what first IDF leader said. And you don't respond to anything I say. I would not be surprised if you were paid by IDF to spread propaganda because you are not here to discuss, only to defend blindly. Last time I was paid by IDF was in 2009 and only 100$ a month to buy food in my base. Maybe I missed out the IDF leader I will search for it. Edited January 21 by Nivsch 🌻 Thinking independently about the spiral stages themselves is important for going through them in an organic, efficient way. If you stick to an external idea about how a stage should be you lose touch with its real self customized process trying to happen inside you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 21 (edited) @Nivsch @Nabd both of you are reasonable enough and intelligent in your own right, don’t get too confrontational, thats petty and above you. Edited January 21 by Vrubel Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 21 5 minutes ago, Nabd said: It is well known and there Israeli documents clearly stating Israel need Hamas. Created by Britain. You dont appreciate how much Islamic fundamentalism helps Israeli right wing ans the west. Its a fucking miracle that first resistance was secular! We are talking about the middle east for fucks sake! So essentially the natives were more developed than European Jews. Supporting Hamas to hurt PLO/Fatah was done strategically before Hamas became dangerous. Hamas started as an "innocent" religious movement or at least, that how they presented themselves to Israel at the beginning. Nothing new. But do Israel responsible to Islamic fundamentalism? Hell no. "Never be afraid to sit a while and think.” ― Lorraine Hansberry Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 21 22 minutes ago, Nabd said: Does this justify Jews coming from all over the world to steal their land? Did they steal something before the Arabs started a war (that was civil in its character) against them? I didn't find an evidence for that. The Jews lived nearby them but didn't stole a private land. And as long as they have no state, they cannot have a "collective" land on their own. 🌻 Thinking independently about the spiral stages themselves is important for going through them in an organic, efficient way. If you stick to an external idea about how a stage should be you lose touch with its real self customized process trying to happen inside you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 21 4 minutes ago, Nabd said: Same could be said about Jews today. What unites you is religion. You literally come from all the world and nothing is shared but religious tradition. Palestinians are more united and similar than Israelis. Also Palestine name was used, it was not unkown. There is a genetic connection between Jews from different areas of the world, this has been tested. Palestinians claim to be indigious to this land and being here thousands of years while their surnames imply about the history of their families coming from Egypt, Iraq, Yemen, Syria etc. Arafat was born in Egypt but lied he was born in Israel's territory and that he is a Palestinian. Muhammed Deif's real name is Mohammed al-Masri, even though he was born in Gaza, his surname implies that his family originally came from Egypt. "Never be afraid to sit a while and think.” ― Lorraine Hansberry Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 21 3 minutes ago, Nabd said: Here you can also see the name used is Palestine @Lila9 This land was called Palestine after being changed by the Romans from Judea, and? There wasn't a Palestinian state at that time, only land named Palestine. "Never be afraid to sit a while and think.” ― Lorraine Hansberry Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 21 (edited) 24 minutes ago, Vrubel said: You must grasp the uniqueness of Jewish history. The extreme non-militantly of the vast majority of Jews led to the Holocaust, slaughtered like lambs. Only Zionists were able to organize resistance like in the Warsaw Ghetto, In the swamps of Belarus and Sobibor deatcamp uprising. Zionist ultimately led the Jews to a country of their own. Yes, of course, and an abused child grows up to abuse others. The big picture here is simply that traumatized Jews are displacing their trauma onto Palestinians. That's really what's going on. Quote personal note: Thats why I always will be a Zionist. I sincerely believe so that my ancestors came from Israel. Either way I feel highly connected with Jewish history. But when it comes down to it. The bottom line is that Jews need Israel for survival. Yes, and this is called dogma and self-bias. Which leads to conflict. Edited January 21 by Leo Gura You are God. You are Truth. You are Love. You are Infinity. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 21 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Leo Gura said: Yes, and this is called dogma and self-bias. Which leads to conflict. I don’t think you understood me correctly. I am taking the least dogmatic and most starkly practical view. But yes I am also making a stand. Edited January 21 by Vrubel Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 21 10 minutes ago, Nabd said: You still don't appreciate the devilry behind supporting religious fundamentalism. Israel was ready to support Hamas just to not allow a Palestinian state. They need Hamas to say "who are we gonna negotiate with?". PLO are extremely reasonable. Why did Israel need to create Hamas? Also, don't be surprised that Israel is responsible for helping fundamentalism. We know this from Syrian documents too where Israel lobbied heavily to dismantle the free Syrian army but didn't seem to mind religious groups. US is responsible for religious fundamentalism too, I am not blaming Israel completely for it. The problem is why did Israel create Hamas? This is not a simple thing to ignore. Israel didn't create it, maybe you wish Israel would have created it so you can blame Hamas on it, because you hate both. You project the devilry if the radical Islamists on Israel. "Never be afraid to sit a while and think.” ― Lorraine Hansberry Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 21 (edited) @Nabd Netanyahu made hamas stronger and it is a shame of course, but hamas was created because of hamas. You want also to blame Europe for creating Nazi germany or that the responsobility to take feeling of offense and unfairness to the extreme toxic version is found in the violent side itself? And if you say they arent responsible then the other side is also not responsible by the same logic of the deterministic point of view which is problematic of course. Edited January 21 by Nivsch 🌻 Thinking independently about the spiral stages themselves is important for going through them in an organic, efficient way. If you stick to an external idea about how a stage should be you lose touch with its real self customized process trying to happen inside you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 21 (edited) Israel was established during a time when nationalism was popular but colonialism wasn’t. It was a humanitarian cause done on the back of European atrocities to the Jews culminating in the Holocaust - it was colonial power with the entitled colonial mindset which aided its establishment. British colonial interests married to a humanitarian interest. The right to self determination and national consciousness came into the world at that time, fine - but this doesn’t mean the right to self determination at the expense of dominating another group. The Palestinian locals were expected (without consultation) to give away a majority share of their land (56% in the partition plan) to a minority of recently arrived settlers who had been there at most 20 years and only made up a third of the population. If Israel’s creation had occurred this way a few decades/centuries earlier it would have encountered less global resistance and condemnation as it does in modern times as back then might was right. Any nations that remain from colonisation today (US, Australia etc) developed over a much larger span of time - multiple decades to centuries and during a time where strength was respected and accepted once it had established itself over weakness. Israel faces ongoing conflict and condemnation due to its perceived artificial creation and its ongoing occupation and subjugation of the inhabitants unlike states that organically evolve more naturally over time due to the geographic, political and cultural situation of the land and locals. Any remaining states that started as colonies do so by integrating the locals in a democracy. Israel wasn’t a grassroots movement so much as it was a top down implant by colonial power. People from elsewhere revived a dormant language (Hebrew) used mostly in the context of religion for their newly formed nation, claimed it as their native tongue and tied it to their ancestral land. This creation was not in harmony with the region's natural circumstances and naturally caused disruption as it was thrust on already existing people for which it had little context or receptivity. Maybe the project of Israel can be seen as a unnatural foreign imposition done in such a rapid space of time - in a time when colonialism was dying and in a world which now rejects any remains of it including the remaining colonial mindset that entitles one to take another's land and subjugate any locals resistance to this, which then gaslights this resistance as terrorism and any criticism as racist. The region still feels the shockwaves of Israel's inception and the locals are still undergoing oppressive dispossession till today. Edited January 21 by zazen Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
