Posted January 19 17 hours ago, kenway said: For example, how are you even defining the word "terrorist" or "terrorism"? When you say:- All terrorists even look and act the same way. It's not that hard to define what a terrorist looks like. For example if Israel was a terrorist state, then you wouldn't be protesting here to stop the bombing. You can do that because there is chance that they might listen. Actual terrorists do not care. I am not going to bother defining a terrorist for you. It's willful ignorance. There is standard definitions for terrorists groups and the states even have their list. What's in here that is worth philosophising about? Israel is no angel and they have their share of terrorising Palestinians by flying jets above the speed of sound over their homes. In that case they should build a proper government, use the funding they get from Iran, among the supplies from UN to defend themselves instead of resorting to terrorism. Hamas, Houthi, Hezbollah all are wings of Iran. They are looking for a reason to eliminate Israel. I wish they gets wiped off the map for good as the world could reach more stability. I trust Israel to get it done. 3 hours ago, jaylimix said: Islamic States + Dictatorship + Communism i.e. Palestine/Iran + Russia + China + North Korea This. 2020-29 decade has seen/seeing a temporary decline in globalism and these fringe powers are seeking to grab their pie in a dying attempt as the world moves on to more freedom and liberalism. They absolutely hate that US is the leader of world and seek to dethrone them using cowardly tactics. They know that there will be huge backlash from the world for inflicting such destruction on civilians so they choose to build bases right in the middle of civilian infrastructure. They are taking advantage of the liberal values we have and that's their last resort. That's cheap and cowardly. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 19 @Lila9 43 minutes ago, Lila9 said: There is devilry in everything in this world, as there is no good without bad. But, the degree of devilry varies, and while Israel has some level of devilry, Hamas has so much more than that. The devilry level is not the same at all and obviously, it's not smart or conscious to call out the one with the least devilry level over the one with the biggest devilry level, ignoring it and justifying it. It's like punishing and demonizing a poor person for stealing from the supermarket products worth $50 while ignoring the rich politician who's stealing his entire career, millions of millions. Exactly, for how evil you think Israel is, Palestinian culture is pretty much rockbottom bankrupt. And with culture I don’t mean any of their Arabic quaintness but how you became a hero of the nation by killing innocent civilians. Then people are outraged that this war is so ugly and pamper the Palestinians because they fit their overly redundant narrative of a poor, oppressed people overlooking their absolute moral bankruptcy. You can’t have an honorable war with these kinds of people. In a more honorable situation a fighting party would do everything to save their women and children. They seem to do the exact opposite and glee when their own women and children are “martyred” and they get more pampering from international actors and thus encouraging them. They totally swim in the compassion and level headedness of Israel and the world but they themselves hold to no standards. It’s obvious that 7/10 happened exactly because Palestinians knew they would not get genocided. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 19 1 hour ago, Lila9 said: How can modern humans favor a radical, deadly Islamic terrorist organization over a secular democracy? Israel is not a democracy because it does not respect human rights. A democracy treats all as equal. So it is not. Also it kills far more so it gets more blame. Hamas killed 30 kids, IDF 10.000. Why should we hate on Hamas so much? 30 kids is nothing compared to 10.000. Therefore IDF is more hated. Numbers matter. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 19 (edited) 1 hour ago, kenway said: UNICEF disagrees. Do you know more than UNICEF? Also, UNICEF have been to Gaza. Have you? UNICF, similar to UNRWA is a totally co operator with terror supporters. I am not an expert on that at all but I have read many evidents to that I will try to find a post I saw just couple of days ago. In meanwhile: https://www.ngo-monitor.org/reports/unicef-opt-continues-its-partnership-with-terror-tied-groups-and-other-disturbing-developments/ Edited January 19 by Nivsch 🌻 Thinking independently about the spiral stages themselves is important for going through them in an organic, efficient way. If you stick to an external idea about how a stage should be you lose touch with its real self customized process trying to happen inside you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 19 Just now, kenway said: But this is predicated on your relationship with Israel, and specifically, your belief that Israel is at war with Hamas, rather than Israel deliberately ethnically cleansing the Palestinian civilians. Exercise: If it became clear that the ‘war on hamas’ narrative was actually inaccurate, and rather intended to mask an ethnic cleansing campaign against Palestinian civilians, how would that modulate your position on Israel’s devilry relative to Hamas’s? Israel isn't interested in ethnic cleansing, it's not its intention in this war. If Israel would have wanted to ethnically cleanse Palestinians, they would have done that so much earlier. It's a war on our safety and future on this land. After October 7 attack the Israeli collective consciousness realized that it cannot longer live with Hamas, it's either them or us. This is a question of survival. People here always talk about prior October 7 attack conception vs October 7 attack conception, there is a collective change in the conception. This word 'conception' is heavily used here, to empathize a paradigm shift Israelies are collectively going through. If we thought that we could live with Hamas, somehow, or negociate with it, somehow, now it's clear that it's impossible, as they are passionate about destroying Israel, and nothing can change it. Nothing can be done to change it, no peace accords, no money, nothing. As so many times Israel tried to soften them, Benjamin, i.e., tried to bribe them. Now, after October 7, there is a collective realization that the only way, to ensure a sane survival and future for Israel, is by destroying Hamas before they destroy us. "Never be afraid to sit a while and think.” ― Lorraine Hansberry Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 19 2 minutes ago, Vrubel said: how you became a hero of the nation by killing innocent civilians. Well those people are seen as thieves that stole their houses and killed them for decades. So they are not innocent in their eyes. It is like Jews getting their hands on Nazi civilians after the holocaust, they would not hold back. Even if Ukranians got their hands on Russian civilians at this point there would be atrocities even though Russia has not even done 1/10 to Ukraine what Israel has done to people in Gaza and for 35x the time lenght Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 19 2 hours ago, Nivsch said: A great achievement to Israel. EU demands the releasing of the hostages as a mandatory condition to a ceasefire. Some saneness and a fresh air Israel is so needed to. This is great news. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 19 1 hour ago, kenway said: @Nivsch @Lila9 Also, seeing as you're both here. How long did you both serve in the IDF for? You might want to declare that to the thread for purposes of transparency. The assumption is that you're no longer being paid by the IDF. Correct? Paid? 😂 The last time I was "paid" by IDF was in 2009 when I got 100$ a month for the shoppings in the market in my base. 🌻 Thinking independently about the spiral stages themselves is important for going through them in an organic, efficient way. If you stick to an external idea about how a stage should be you lose touch with its real self customized process trying to happen inside you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 19 (edited) 22 minutes ago, Karmadhi said: Well those people are seen as thieves that stole their houses and killed them for decades. So they are not innocent in their eyes. It is like Jews getting their hands on Nazi civilians after the holocaust, they would not hold back. Even if Ukranians got their hands on Russian civilians at this point there would be atrocities even though Russia has not even done 1/10 to Ukraine what Israel has done to people in Gaza and for 35x the time lenght Jews didn’t go after Nazi/German civilians after the war because they focused on building a future for themselves. Being productive, taking the moral high ground and building up a life and country from scratch. Because thats what respectable people do. And dude… Whats you problem with Ukrainians. They too are nowadays not savages unlike the Palestinians. (I am referring to the broad culture, I am sure there are also respectable groups, individuals within that society). There are still plenty of Russians in Ukraine. Nobody is going after them. Also in previous posts I talked about Palestinian living conditions not being that dire and having a lot of opportunity, being pampered with media attention and having had the opportunity to make good money in Israel. I am not going to constantly repeat myself. Edited January 19 by Vrubel Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 19 8 minutes ago, Nivsch said: Paid? 😂 The last time I was "paid" by IDF was in 2009 when I got 100$ a month for the shoppings in the market in my base. That's fine. Was just curious. Appreciated. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 19 51 minutes ago, Lila9 said: Israel isn't interested in ethnic cleansing Here we disagree, although I'd accept the nuance that it's not Israel as a whole, merely an insanely far-right contingent of it. But to be fair, the exercise was more about how your position would change, if it were found to be the case. It's important because some pro-Israelis who concur that it's genocide are seemingly quite happy about it. 51 minutes ago, Lila9 said: If Israel would have wanted to ethnically cleanse Palestinians, they would have done that so much earlier. Variables change over time, not least public opinion and government attitude. Netanyahu himself has changed. Besides, you could easily apply the same logic to the official response. 51 minutes ago, Lila9 said: It's a war on our safety and future on this land. After October 7 attack the Israeli collective consciousness realized that it cannot longer live with Hamas, it's either them or us. This is a question of survival. I recognise that you believe that. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 19 (edited) 1 hour ago, Bobby_2021 said: All terrorists even look and act the same way. It's not that hard to define what a terrorist looks like. What do terrorists look like? How do terrorists act? If it’s not hard to define what a terrorist looks like, then why don’t you define it? I've already said that Israel was created by terrorist groups. The Haganah literally translates as "Defense Force" which later became the Israeli Defence Force (IDF). Can you point to the exact moment that the IDF ceased terrorist activities? The truth is that terrorism is just another weapon and method that a country uses in order to achieve its aims. Israel has been using terrorism prior to its genesis, through its genesis, and after its genesis right up to the current bombardment today. 1 hour ago, Bobby_2021 said: For example if Israel was a terrorist state, then you wouldn't be protesting here to stop the bombing. You can do that because there is chance that they might listen. That doesn't even make any sense. 1 hour ago, Bobby_2021 said: I am not going to bother defining a terrorist for you. It's willful ignorance. Okay, well I appreciate your time regardless. Edited January 19 by kenway Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 19 Meanwhile over in the West Bank, in a place that has nothing to do with Hamas.... (would ordinarily be a war crime, with the unique exception that there isn't even a war in this instance) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 19 And the latest data according to Euro-Med. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 19 It also should be remembered this is Day 8 of the telecommunications blackout in Gaza. No-one has any clue about what's going on there in real-time. The data would assume hell on earth. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 19 21 minutes ago, kenway said: And the latest data according to Euro-Med. This organization is linked to Hamas in Europe, under the facade of a human rights organization. I would be careful trusting them. https://www.ngo-monitor.org/ngo-monitor-statement-on-euromed-hr-monitor/ "The Euro-Med Human Rights Monitor is an ideological advocacy NGO led by Palestinians alleged by Israel to be linked to Hamas. The organization uses the facade of human rights and focuses primarily on demonizing Israel, with no publicly available information on its budget or funding sources. The repeated allegations directed at Israel, including accusations of “organ theft,” as well as “genocide,” “ethnic cleansing,” “collective punishment,” are not supported by evidence. In contrast, EMHRM systematically echoes and amplifies denials of Palestinian abuses and war crimes where the evidence is readily available, such as using Al-Shifa medical complex and other hospitals in the Gaza Strip for terror. In addition, social media posts by EMHRM officials systematically promote claims that delegitimize Israel and Zionism. EMHRM also mixes political propaganda with blood libels and other forms of antisemitism, such as the organ theft charges, accusations of “slow poisoning of [Palestinian] children,” and declarations that “the legacy of the Holocaust lent uncritical credence to the Zionist narrative.” Richard Falk, Chair of EMHRN’s Board of Trustees and featured on the NGO’s website, is a 9/11 conspiracy theorist and has been widely denounced for his antisemitic statements. Hamas Terror Links: Ramy Abdu and Mazen Kahel, respectively current and former chairman of EMHRM, were listed by the Israel Ministry of Defense in 2013 as “main operatives” for institutions considered by Israel to be fronts for Hamas in Europe. EMHRN appears in the European Union’s transparency register of “‘interest representatives” who “carry out activities to influence the EU policy and decision-making process” (emphasis in original). For details, sources and additional information, see https://www.ngo-monitor.org/ngos/euro-med-human-rights-monitor/" "Never be afraid to sit a while and think.” ― Lorraine Hansberry Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 19 Hamas doesn't limit itself to Israel and would like to terrorise Europe too, I'm not surprised. https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-says-it-uncovered-hamas-terror-network-planning-attacks-in-europe/ "Never be afraid to sit a while and think.” ― Lorraine Hansberry Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 19 9 minutes ago, Lila9 said: This organization is linked to Hamas in Europe, under the facade of a human rights organization. I would be careful trusting them. https://www.ngo-monitor.org/ngo-monitor-statement-on-euromed-hr-monitor/ "The Euro-Med Human Rights Monitor is an ideological advocacy NGO led by Palestinians alleged by Israel to be linked to Hamas. The organization uses the facade of human rights and focuses primarily on demonizing Israel, with no publicly available information on its budget or funding sources. The repeated allegations directed at Israel, including accusations of “organ theft,” as well as “genocide,” “ethnic cleansing,” “collective punishment,” are not supported by evidence. In contrast, EMHRM systematically echoes and amplifies denials of Palestinian abuses and war crimes where the evidence is readily available, such as using Al-Shifa medical complex and other hospitals in the Gaza Strip for terror. In addition, social media posts by EMHRM officials systematically promote claims that delegitimize Israel and Zionism. EMHRM also mixes political propaganda with blood libels and other forms of antisemitism, such as the organ theft charges, accusations of “slow poisoning of [Palestinian] children,” and declarations that “the legacy of the Holocaust lent uncritical credence to the Zionist narrative.” Richard Falk, Chair of EMHRN’s Board of Trustees and featured on the NGO’s website, is a 9/11 conspiracy theorist and has been widely denounced for his antisemitic statements. Hamas Terror Links: Ramy Abdu and Mazen Kahel, respectively current and former chairman of EMHRM, were listed by the Israel Ministry of Defense in 2013 as “main operatives” for institutions considered by Israel to be fronts for Hamas in Europe. EMHRN appears in the European Union’s transparency register of “‘interest representatives” who “carry out activities to influence the EU policy and decision-making process” (emphasis in original). For details, sources and additional information, see https://www.ngo-monitor.org/ngos/euro-med-human-rights-monitor/" So if we're going to play that game... ... and Alan Dershowitz? Okay. But in any event it should probably be remembered that death count figures are seldom disputed by neither Gaza nor Israel. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 19 hamas wants all the time to get control in the West Bank too, and most of the daily activities of IDF there during all the years are against hamas. 🌻 Thinking independently about the spiral stages themselves is important for going through them in an organic, efficient way. If you stick to an external idea about how a stage should be you lose touch with its real self customized process trying to happen inside you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
