Posted January 16 3 hours ago, Nivsch said: 1 Hostage's fear and suffering = 100 Israeli soldiers/Gazan citizens suffering. This is sad. Inside of me I hope that the hostages who were declared as dead in Hamas captivaty are somehow still alive... "Never be afraid to sit a while and think.” ― Lorraine Hansberry Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 17 @Lila9 In my heart I know you to be a decent human being and I know you mean well. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 17 (edited) 2 hours ago, Karmadhi said: And what about West Bank? I do not think people have issues with how Israelis treat the Arabs in Israel per say. Issue is more about West Bank that is treated like a terrorist state. They are treated like a terrorist state because they have committed and still commiting terror attacks. It's not out of nowhere. They deserve what they do to others. If they would have been peaceful, all was good and there was no need for checkpoints or military there. And there could be a place for negociating two states solution or even one, who knows. In reality, unfortunately, it's not the case. 2 hours ago, Karmadhi said: If Hamas are terrorist raping monsters devils how come they treated her so well? Even her father says so. No raping, no beatings, no nothing. Interesting. They didn't treated her 'so well', they treated her like they treat their hostages, did the bare minimum to keep her alive and God knows what she has seen there and experienced there, per her family, she still hasn't came fully to herself and doesn't speak or behave like she used to prior to the kidnapping. Only because she isn't physically injured, doesn't make Hamas crimes any less devilish and horrible and doesn't contridict the fact the Hamas are dangerous terrorists who made crimes against humanity. They have literally killed babies in their sleep and children, on October 7. What else they should do to make you realize that they are not innocent freedom fighters who are fighting for justice, or any western projection disconnected from the brutal reality of the middle east and the evil side of the human nature? By your logic, if a Nazi has passed by a disabled/black/Romani/Jewish boy (or anyone who was their target) without killing or raping him, it makes him clean, despite all the killings and the crimes he made against people he is targeting throughout his life. What a screwed logic I must say. 2 hours ago, Karmadhi said: @kenway I love how these Israelis are totally cold and non reactive to all the horrible stuff you send here everyday and just rationalize it away or totally ignore it. It makes sense why Hamas would target civilians in purpose, when Israelis do not see Palestinians as humans. Any sane human would protest to stop the killings, I saw some sane Israeli organizations are doing so. Most are not unfortunately. How are they better than the Gazans that celebrated on the streets I wonder? You call Israelies cold and at the same time justify Hamas crimes against Israelies. So you are no different, and actually, you are worse because you are supporting and justifying a terrorist organization who started this war by commiting unbelievable crimes against humanity, deliberately with a great celebration. There is no evidence that Israel deliberately targets Palestinian civilians. And no, videos of dead and injured people, while are highly unfortunate, don't prove that Israel deliberately and systematically targets civilians, like Hamas did and still do. It only proves that Hamas is hiding among the civilians and using them as human shields, locating themselves in schools and hospitals, the most sensitive places, failing to protect them from the consequences of their crimes. They couldn't do the bare minimum of locating themselves in a non civilized areas, it only shows how strategic and canny they are. Hamas themselves don't see themselves as responsible to their own people, they admitted, watch below. They benefit from the Gaza civilians deaths, which is cynically used to make them richer through donations and to bring them more support and more hatred towards Israel. The biggest enemy of the Palestinians is not Israel but Hamas and toxic doctrines alike. And by fighting Hamas Israel helping to the Palestinians, in the long term. If not Hamas, Gaza wouldn't be in the state it is now. This is a fact. If you are ruled by such terrorist organization, you are doomed to high suffering, either by the terrorists and their policies directly against you, or indirectly by being at a vulnerable position and by being at their mercy when they are intiating fighting against others. Edited January 17 by Lila9 "Never be afraid to sit a while and think.” ― Lorraine Hansberry Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 17 45 minutes ago, kenway said: @Lila9 In my heart I know you to be a decent human being and I know you mean well. I don't know if you are being cynical or not... But if it is genuine, thank you. "Never be afraid to sit a while and think.” ― Lorraine Hansberry Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 17 4 hours ago, Lila9 said: They are treated like a terrorist state because they have committed and still commiting terror attacks. It's not out of nowhere Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 17 (edited) 4 hours ago, Lila9 said: There is no evidence that Israel deliberately targets Palestinian civilians. Edited January 17 by zazen Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 17 (edited) @Lila9 Everyone here talks from his or her trauma and childhood experience and this is what determines their side in this conflict basically. The fact though is that Israel did everything to avoid this war. From a billion dollars smart fence, through 1000s of work permission to Gazans in Israel and millions of dollar poured on Gaza with Israel permission. However Gaza was already saturated from wealth and money and could be the second Dubai, but it didnt help since every dollar was directed into terror. Edited January 17 by Nivsch 🌻 Thinking independently about the spiral stages themselves is important for going through them in an organic, efficient way. If you stick to an external idea about how a stage should be you lose touch with its real self customized process trying to happen inside you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 17 @zazen This "massacare" list is fake and unreliable. And how do I know that? Because Israel surgical operations (~70% surgicality in average which is very good given hamas tactic) in the last 15 years are also displayed there as "massacare" 😂 Pure absurdity 🎠💈🎡🎪 🌻 Thinking independently about the spiral stages themselves is important for going through them in an organic, efficient way. If you stick to an external idea about how a stage should be you lose touch with its real self customized process trying to happen inside you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 17 (edited) 1 hour ago, Nivsch said: @zazen This "massacare" list is fake and unreliable. And how do I know that? Because Israel surgical operations (~70% surgicality in average which is very good given hamas tactic) in the last 15 years are also displayed there as "massacare" 😂 Pure absurdity 🎠💈🎡🎪 True, the word massacre implies large scale killing which isn’t the case for all of these ‘incidents’ if that’s a better word. The point is there’s been attacks from both sides which debunks the October 7th happening out of nowhere claim. Operation protective edge in 2014 killed 1’400 civilians of which 500 were children compared to 33 children on October 7th (15 times more) I don’t mean to compare numbers in such a crude way but it’s to make the point that people can understand why Israel is angry after October 7th but this understanding doesn’t come much from the Israeli side to why the Palestinians would be angry after Israeli operations. https://www.btselem.org/press_releases/20160720_fatalities_in_gaza_conflict_2014 The civilian rate for the last 15 years differs between IDF and UN numbers. IDF have been shown to lie many times in the past and come out later to admit to things they’ve done. I’m not sure why many human rights groups or UN would lie - what could they all have against Israel. It’s not like all of them can be anti-Semitic or Hamas cooperatives. I can only go by what 3rd party groups say rather than trust either IDF or Hamas due to bias. Here are numbers from UN for each operation the last 15 years: 2008 - 1’150 (60% civilian) / 3 Israeli civilians killed 2012 - 100 killed (60% civilian) / 4 Israeli civilians killed 2014 - 2’251 killed (65% civilian) / 6 Israeli civilians killed 2018 - 1 commander, 2 civilians killed (66%) , 0 Israeli civilians killed (thankfully not many deaths in this operation as it was a small covert one) Regarding October 7th: As all Israelis take part in the army and become citizen-reservists couldn’t it be that Israel can also claim that their soldiers who die are also civilians. Like the outpost near the border that Hamas attacked on October 7th - they were stationed there as guards but labelled civilians at the same time. This can be used almost as a human shield to portray any attack from Palestinians as a civilians attack. Likewise the settlement expansion can be used as a political human shield against a future Palestinian state. Edited January 17 by zazen Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 17 (edited) 🇾🇪 Hundreds of thousands been killed in Yemen but nobody cares not in the western world nor here. 🇸🇾 Bashar Al Assad killed more muslims then the sum of the people been killed in all of the conflicts between Israel and Muslims since 1947 but not the world nor here there is a caring that is even a hundredth of how we care when it comes to Israel palestine conflict when the casualties is less than 1% than the cases above. What is the conclusion? A bias against Israel. 😠 "But we hold Israel to higher standarts!" But it doesn't answer the question why you still don't show your pain in link-trees or angry statements when people are killed in other Arab countries. I thought that you just care about the people who are suffering or killed. The answer is then: You aren't interested in those poor people, not nearly as much as you are interested in Israel's situation and most likely not in her favor. Edited January 17 by Nivsch 🌻 Thinking independently about the spiral stages themselves is important for going through them in an organic, efficient way. If you stick to an external idea about how a stage should be you lose touch with its real self customized process trying to happen inside you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 17 Brilliant journalism, filmed last month from one of Gaza's safe zones. Actual applaudable journalism. The tragedy is that so much has changed since then. So much has changed in just 3 weeks. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 17 Same journalist from the video posted above, but her latest update. Video taken today. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 17 (edited) @kenway This is an uttetly demagogic post. ~40% of the casualties are hamas combatants. Rate doesn't mean anything but the duration over a long time in the context of the intentions. Obviously when there are 130 hostages there the speed of the war will be maximized. Edited January 17 by Nivsch 🌻 Thinking independently about the spiral stages themselves is important for going through them in an organic, efficient way. If you stick to an external idea about how a stage should be you lose touch with its real self customized process trying to happen inside you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 17 10 minutes ago, Nivsch said: @kenway This is an uttetly demagogic post. ~40% of the casualties are hamas combatants. Rate doesn't mean anything but the duration over a long time in the context of the intentions. Obviously when there are 130 hostages there the speed of the war will be maximized. A normal country doesn't rescue 130 hostages by invoking Hiroshima on to a population of 2.1 million, half of whom are children. If you don't understand that, then I don't know what to tell you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 17 (edited) @kenway hamas is to blame in that we cornered to do our best to rescue our hostages, and the citizens casualities are still not intentional. Sorry to tell you. Exactly what you would do if your friends or family were held hostage. Edited January 17 by Nivsch 🌻 Thinking independently about the spiral stages themselves is important for going through them in an organic, efficient way. If you stick to an external idea about how a stage should be you lose touch with its real self customized process trying to happen inside you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 17 (edited) @Nivsch you guys (anyone still supporting whatever that's going on) are up for a rude awakening, whether you realize it now or in 50 years, but Israel's image and reputation has been broken for years to come and no amount of justification will fix that. Edited January 17 by lina Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 17 (edited) @lina If a baby from your village was burned alive and some of your friends or family would taken hostages with a gun to their head every day for 100 days you would do exactly the same as Israel and chasing those murderers with the maximum pressure possible until you bring them back. Edited January 17 by Nivsch 🌻 Thinking independently about the spiral stages themselves is important for going through them in an organic, efficient way. If you stick to an external idea about how a stage should be you lose touch with its real self customized process trying to happen inside you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 17 1 hour ago, kenway said: A normal country doesn't rescue 130 hostages by invoking Hiroshima on to a population of 2.1 million, half of whom are children. It's not just 130 hostages. The existence of hamas implies there would be thousands more hostages, rapes and kidnappings as much as Israel is willing to tolerate long into the future. At one point, they decide enough is enough. Also those children are the reason hamas even exist. They need to operate in children's hospital so that they wouldn't be taken out. None of this would have happened it they came to fight upfront without being such cowards using children as human shields. Does that justify killing thousands of children? No. But there would be killings anyway. This would put an end to all this. There is no peaceful ending. The tunnel networks should be destroyed and the city infrastructure rebuilt well once again for civilians and some international body setup to protect the rights of Palestinians. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 17 1 hour ago, Nivsch said: citizens casualities are still not intentional False. Since 2006, it is standard practice for Israel to intentionally kill civilians including women and children. It has no moral issue in doing this because it regards the Palestinians as being an inferior people, and in any case the Palestinians represent a demographic threat to the stability of the Israeli-Nazi ethnostate. The targetting of women and children in particular, along with schools, hospitals, refugee camps, journalists and aid workers, is designed primarily to overwhelm the population, with the hope of creating enough terror and dystopia to force the residents to leave voluntarily. Even before Hamas came to power in 2006, Israel would routinely fly fighter jets over Gaza City at 3 in the morning, breaking the sound barrier, thereby creating a sonic boom to terrorise the citizens into thinking they were under attack. A daily occurrence, making sleep practically impossible. The modern-day drones share a similar psychological benefit, along with the obvious benefit of surveillance and reconnaissance. The present day genocide is merely the apogee, but with 85% of homes destroyed in 100 days, is designed to be terminal. The direct and intentional killing of civilians is an obvious component to the genocide, but more strategically serves as an extension of the previous psychological operations, this time forcing them to the south, close to the Philadelphi Route and the Egyptian border where they will eventually be flushed out to the desert on mass. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
