Posted January 12 @Nivsch 6 minutes ago, Nivsch said: The ratio is 3:1 to 3:1.5 (Not 1000:1) No wonder though you use the absurd trendy word. I am even not writing it for you but to prevent a deceiving of hundreds or thousands of readers here. And where did you get that ratio? from Israel's side? Yeah keep moralizing and preaching. Where's your moralizing since then, picking on me and not @Raze or @zazen or @Merkabah Star, or even @kenway? Even @Leo Gura and mods can see this. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 12 (edited) @Danioover9000 I'd only add that though dark humour exists but if the person dishing it out has stated such things like that they don't care for Palestinian life - that obviously indicates a clear lack of empathy and good faith in any discussion. Some of Jaylimix's reasoning and points have been interesting and made me think which I appreciate but then past posts like the one below leave a bad taste in wanting to respond to them. On 24/11/2023 at 7:03 AM, jaylimix said: I completely reject the death toll coming out from Gaza Health Ministry and so should you all reading this. The GHM is under Hamas' controlled, who uses the death toll as war propaganda, where they specifically highlight a high number of dead children. And let us not forget the combatants' death toll, rats who hides underground, whos death matters less than literal rats. Israel is NOT evil, they do care about civilians, asking them to mouth south, calling off airstrikes if there are too many civilians around. The same cannot be said about me, I don't care about dead Palestinian children. I've more often seen dehumanising language come from the pro-Israeli side than the pro-Palestinian side. Maybe certain rhetoric has become so normalised in Israel that referring to the other side in such ways as virus, rats, animals etc doesn't seem to come across bad to their own conscience until they start interacting with the outside world in which they get some negative feedback for their choice of words. It's language like this that can lead to genocides and normalising ethnic cleansing. Likewise in the case of the Rwandan genocide it starts with speaking of the other side in such ways on public radio stations (referring to them as rats, cockroaches etc) that immunizes them to committing future death and destruction. Edited January 12 by zazen Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 12 (edited) 6 hours ago, kenway said: @zazen 1 hour in and this is almost complete. I think I'm missing Promised Land, Hitler and Blood Libel. Almost like bingo. Will be interesting to hear Norman Finklesteins take on it. I found this comment on youtube interesting: Edited January 12 by zazen Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 12 @zazen 30 minutes ago, zazen said: @Danioover9000 I'd only add that though dark humour exists but if the person dishing it out has stated such things like that they don't care for Palestinian life - that obviously indicates a clear lack of empathy and good faith in any discussion. Some of Jaylimix's reasoning and points have been interesting and made me think which I appreciate but then past posts like the one below leave a bad taste in wanting to respond to them. I've more often seen dehumanising language come from the pro-Israeli side than the pro-Palestinian side. Maybe certain rhetoric has become so normalised in Israel that referring to the other side in such ways as virus, rats, animals etc doesn't seem to come across bad to their own conscience until they start interacting with the outside world in which they get some negative feedback for their choice of words. It's language like this that can lead to genocides and normalising ethnic cleansing. Likewise in the case of the Rwandan genocide it starts with speaking of the other side in such ways on public radio stations (referring to them as rats, cockroaches etc) that immunizes them to committing future death and destruction. True, talking like that just paints a bad picture of pro Israeli supporters as blind believers and dogmatic animals with no soul, leading to a sort of bad apple spoiling the bunch. I think @jaylimix is part of a symptom of the evils of the internet, and how over consuming social media and Tik Tok rots the brain and makes people sheep. I actually think this person in real life will say and act differently outside of the internet because there's no anonymity, or internet protection, or because this user is appealing to and making fallacies of pathos and ethos and populace, because pro Israeli is much bigger than pro Palestine, therefore he/she sides with the most popular and widely accepted side. I do think the Israel/Palestine conflict is polarizing people's minds, reducing critical thinking and independence of one's common sense making apparatus, any other social context such a person would behave rationally and reasonably, but when some contexts involves wars, or human killings, or terrorists, or any other dark subject and dark loaded terms, that itself becomes a thought terminating cliche, increasing bad faith tactics and disingenuous takes and acts, and reducing good will and good faith exchanges of ideas. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 12 1 hour ago, Danioover9000 said: Not to downplay either side of this Israel/Palestine conflict, but there's nothing special about Palestine and even Israel at all, especially boring Israel. Taking into account all it's history, and geo political power dynamics, the PLO was created by the KGB from Russia, rough equivalent to the CIA from USA, so in the biggest picture, if this was a civilization game, PLO is a small village founded by one city state, and Israel was founded by another city state with it's own ideological agendas. long term both Palestine and Israel are proxies for USA and Russia, for the capitalism/communism warfare, and based on many developmental factors like stages of development and value, cognitive and moral development, personality types/traits, 9 stages of ego development, and other lines of development from person to societal domains, and ideological warfare and beliefs indoctrinated by culture and society, family upbringing, and information ecology consumed and manufactured by big companies for conspicuous consumption, and biases and preferences that shapes one's worldviews. For the readers I'm supposedly trying to lie to. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 12 @Nivsch 1 hour ago, Nivsch said: The ratio is 3:1 to 3:1.5 (Not 1000:1) No wonder though you use the absurd trendy word. I am even not writing it for you but to prevent a deceiving of hundreds or thousands of readers here. Even if I'm wrong in my argumentation and ration, the fact is that it's not a 1:1 kill ratio, 1 HAMAs terrorist killed to one civilian, man, woman, or child killed. The death toll, even if it's not 10,000 to 1, or 1,000 to 1, 0r 100 to 1, or 10 civilians to 1 terrorist, point is civilian death toll is higher than terrorists killed. Is that a highly moral army, that possesses guided and dumb bombs, precision weaponry, knows almost 'everything' when it targets each building? Is a quality of a highly moral army, when it goes to war, has a higher civilian death toll per enemy killed? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 12 (edited) 1 hour ago, zazen said: Will be interesting to hear Norman Finklesteins take on it. Currently watching Finkelstein's latest take that was broadcast last night post the South African arguments. I'd also be interested in hearing his take on the Israeli defense, if for no other reason than to help decode it. There were moments during Israels defense when I literally had no idea what they were talking about. 41 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said: I do think the Israel/Palestine conflict is polarizing people's minds, reducing critical thinking and independence of one's common sense making apparatus, any other social context such a person would behave rationally and reasonably, but when some contexts involves wars, or human killings, or terrorists, or any other dark subject and dark loaded terms, that itself becomes a thought terminating cliche, increasing bad faith tactics and disingenuous takes and acts, and reducing good will and good faith exchanges of ideas. Great observation. Edited January 12 by kenway Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 12 1 hour ago, zazen said: .I've more often seen dehumanising language come from the pro-Israeli side than the pro-Palestinian side. Maybe certain rhetoric has become so normalised in Israel that referring to the other side in such ways as virus, rats, animals etc doesn't seem to come across bad to their own conscience until they start interacting with the outside world in which they get some negative feedback for their choice of words. It's language like this that can lead to genocides and normalising ethnic cleansing. Likewise in the case of the Rwandan genocide it starts with speaking of the other side in such ways on public radio stations (referring to them as rats, cockroaches etc) that immunizes them to committing future death and destruction. Surprisingly even the Spiral Dynamics model got weaponized and some are starting to use the same "rats/cockroaches" example, but change the wording to "red stage" and then continue with the same dehumanization and supremacy rhetoric to justify the violence and apartheid. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 12 @lina 9 minutes ago, lina said: Surprisingly even the Spiral Dynamics model got weaponized and some are starting to use the same "rats/cockroaches" example, but change the wording to "red stage" and then continue with the same dehumanization and supremacy rhetoric to justify the violence and apartheid. That's part of the challenges to communicating, and handling semantics/syntax structures. I sometimes would do this, use stereotypes or caricature examples to exemplify each stage of development with. The real issue is when using a stereotype of a person or group, the user doesn't clarify or explain briefly why the example was used, and lately in this thread whenever someone uses Spiral Dynamics to demonize/dehumanize, they just use the negative loaded terms and stereotypes, but don't explain why it specifically used, they just negative label mainly HAMMAs and sometimes Hezbollah as just stage red terrorists, maybe include Houthis, or ISIS, or Afghanistan's Al Qaeda, most polarized perspectives just label them 'stage red' without bringing up nuances when, for example, Hezbollah has stage blue elements like hospitals, schooling, farming, and other social infrastructures within it's own hierarchy in Southern Lebanon, or don't add prior context to say that Israel's invasion of Lebanon, and disconnecting the north and middle from south Lebanon gave opportunities for the militia groups to form Hezbollah. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 12 (edited) @kenway 23 minutes ago, kenway said: Currently watching Finkelstein's latest take that was broadcast last night post the South African arguments. I'd also be interested in hearing his take on the Israeli defense, if for no other reason than to help decode it. There were moments during Israels defense when I literally had no idea what they were talking about. Great observation. I've watched the South African part, and currently watching Israel's part. Generally, you're not missing much, just linguistically Israel reframing and distorting and deflecting with use of sophistry, undermining the definitions of genocide, good dodging and deflecting. I will be doing a body language analysis on both parts as I generally feel that some speakers on either side, just some, have nervousness or defensiveness. Especially a few of Israel's defense lawyers, the first guy was too shifty and adjusting his papers too often, also on podium he leans away from South African side. Also moments of lip retraction, lip licks and lip compression, just slight whenever he brings up South Africa, genocide, and giving some talking points of Israel's defense. Second guy from Britain, good linguistics, actually chose the right angle to attack South Africa's case from, although his claim they just want to keep range within 75 years, and his whataboutism on historical ranges to consider. Also pro tip: if you ever feel dry throat, and feel your voice about to go hoarse and dry, pause and drink some water, strategically pause to drink water because that moment when his voice failed, and he had to dry swallow non-verbally communicates weakness. Also, nick pick here, please when you wear glasses wear them properly, because the camera angle makes him look looney, and unkept, maybe camera angle. Edited January 12 by Danioover9000 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 12 25 minutes ago, lina said: Surprisingly even the Spiral Dynamics model got weaponized and some are starting to use the same "rats/cockroaches" example, but change the wording to "red stage" and then continue with the same dehumanization and supremacy rhetoric to justify the violence and apartheid. True, pure misuse and abuse of a model/framework. The worst use of that argument is that the less developed need to develop to be given a state or shouldn’t govern themselves because by looking around at other Arab nations they’re dysfunctional. If I’m not mistaken that almost sounds colonial. @Danioover9000 Good points and observations made 👍🏻 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 12 31 minutes ago, kenway said: I'd also be interested in hearing his take on the Israeli defense, if for no other reason than to help decode it. There were moments during Israels defense when I literally had no idea what they were talking about. It just didn’t seem coherent, was like a master class in whataboutery. Some standalone points did seem like good counters but then the facts seem to go against their own - like the claim they didn’t bomb any hospitals. The military strategy doesn’t seem to match their objective of targeting Hamas either. If you notify a building before bombing it then Hamas will surely run away also or relocate. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 12 (edited) 🇿🇦 South Africa delegation: "hamas is NOT a terror organization". A month ago South Africa leadership even hosted hamas leaders in their parliament. Now its clear their prosecution submitted to Hugue courte is highly infected to begin with. https://www.instagram.com/reel/C2ASM08osuJ/?igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA== Edited January 12 by Nivsch 🌻 Thinking independently about the spiral stages themselves is important for going through them in an organic, efficient way. If you stick to an external idea about how a stage should be you lose touch with its real self customized process trying to happen inside you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 12 (edited) 2 hours ago, zazen said: Some standalone points did seem like good counters but then the facts seem to go against their own - like the claim they didn’t bomb any hospitals. Yep I noticed that. One of the greatest and most frustrating dimensions about Israel/Palestine is the manner in which "language" and "facts" get so lost in overloaded implication - it's practically impossible to unpack in realtime. Words like "terrorist" and "ceasefire" go through the filters of the subconscious completely unchecked, simply because it is just far too fatiguing to defend and reconfigure back into reality each time such words are mentioned. This is despite the understanding, that really, words like "terrorist" are too simplistic for purpose, and often inaccurate, while words like "ceasefire" imply a war of equal-footedness, rather than a slaughter of merciless disproportion. The "hospital incident" (singular) referenced because of its media fanfare, is of course just one of many hospital destructions. The narrative that Israel didn't bomb the hospital is of course patently absurd. There's no way Hamas rockets could have created the damage that was achieved there. Not only that, acoustic analysis of the missile strikes fingerprint the destructions back to the type of missiles that Israel was using. From there it's almost a game of sudoku: If you know Israel is lying about the hospital destruction, then the "intelligence wiretaps" pertaining to Palestinian complicity (reported by the media) have to be fake. But all of this is lost, and will remain lost, due to the tragic fatigue of having to labour these points each time that these situations are raised. Edited January 12 by kenway Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 12 22 minutes ago, Nivsch said: 🇿🇦 South Africa delegation: "hamas is NOT a terror organization". A month ago South Africa leadership even hosted hamas leaders in their parliament. Now its clear their prosecution submitted to Hugue courte is highly infected to begin with. https://www.instagram.com/reel/C2ASM08osuJ/?igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA== They condemned the attack when asked, and apparently they received a call for aid to Palestinian not actually hosted them based on this article: https://www.reuters.com/world/south-africa-says-it-discussed-aid-with-hamas-leader-denies-reports-support-2023-10-18/ "We do not have a bilateral relationship with Hamas... Support for the Palestinian struggle against occupation does not equate to support for Hamas," Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 12 (edited) @Happy Lizard come on. I even don't know how to comment to that. Take your thoughts to where you want. I am not trying to convince anybody. Edited January 12 by Nivsch 🌻 Thinking independently about the spiral stages themselves is important for going through them in an organic, efficient way. If you stick to an external idea about how a stage should be you lose touch with its real self customized process trying to happen inside you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 12 14 minutes ago, Nivsch said: @Happy Lizard come on. I even don't know how to comment to that. Take your thoughts to where you want. I am not trying to convince anybody. You twist anything to fit your narrative. Which ironically is what you project on everyone else that doesn’t agree with you. Pass the popcorn. 🤡 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 12 @Nivsch well idk one should ask why would they support Hamas to begin with? It doesn’t make sense. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 12 (edited) @Merkabah Star This is just so ridiculous. They even didn't agree to say hamas is a terror organization. This is so clear to me what is going on here. Sometimes a good intuition is really enough when you obviously don't and won't have the precise 100.00% scientific proof for many things. I saw 2 hours from the SA speeches (1 hour left to see) and the 3 hours of Israel response. The differences in the level and the quality of the claims are huge. No doubt at all, for me, that those accusation are not any other than an abuse, in a similar way conspiracy theorists use curnel of truths to make a totally engineered and wrong in its essence story. Israel's response was so much more directive, broad in their context that could keep a sensible and healthy structure all along the way, calm even, confident and to the point. For me it is very clear. This is not to say there are no problems need to be addressed as I said before in my comment to the video of ex-IDF soldier @Raze added, but the whole accusation of "genocide" is an entire house of cards. Absolutely ridiculous. Edited January 12 by Nivsch 🌻 Thinking independently about the spiral stages themselves is important for going through them in an organic, efficient way. If you stick to an external idea about how a stage should be you lose touch with its real self customized process trying to happen inside you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 12 (edited) @kenway Well said, the word fatigue is the best way to describe it when claims are made that contradict facts and heavy terms are used that need to be defined by both sides for effective communication. The term terrorist has become a weaponised label no one wants to be associated with the same way no one wants to be accused of genocide. @Nivsch I think the reason some hesitate to call Hamas terrorists especially like that South African guy is because in South Africa’s history it was Nelson Mandela who helped end apartheid / injustice and go on to become the first democratically elected President of the country - yet he was labeled a terrorist. The locals saw him as a freedom fighter and the movement as a resistance to oppression likewise how some view Hamas who are as the embodiment of Palestinian resistance with an armed wing and who deploy terrorist tactics. Just today Biden called Houthis terrorists - yet he actually removed that designation in 2001 - https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1256923 They haven’t killed anyone in their protest to Israel, only blockaded shipments going to Israel (a taste of their own medicine for blockading Gaza for 18 years) within their own territorial waters and asked for a ceasefire or aid to be allowed in- for this they get bombed. It seems whoever goes against the empires interest are deemed terrorists. The message sent is that container ships and bottom line profits are more important than innocent babies, children, men and women being killed and displaced in Gaza. If we go by the definition of terrorism as the ‘unlawful use of violence or intimidation for political ends’ - wasn’t the UK and US striking Yemen without passing Parlimanent in UK and Congress in US unlawful? And for which political end, for their own countries politics or for another countries ie Israel’s political end. If lawful use of violence is used does that make it right? For example, just to show how sneaky laws can be in legalising what could otherwise be called terrorism: There exists a Act “known informally as the Hague Invasion Act - a United States federal law described as "a bill to protect United States military personnel and other elected and appointed officials of the United States government against criminal prosecution by the international criminal court. The Act authorizes the president of the United States to use "all means necessary and appropriate to bring about the release of any U.S. or allied personnel being detained or imprisoned by, on behalf of, or at the request of the International Criminal Court". This authorization led to the act being colloquially nicknamed "The Hague Invasion Act", as the act allows the president to order U.S. military action, such as an invasion of the Netherlands, where The Hague is located, to protect American officials and military personnel from prosecution or rescue them from custody.” https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members'_Protection_Act Edited January 12 by zazen Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
