Posted January 10 1 minute ago, Nivsch said: The thirst for justice and the emotions when someone isn't educated about this so tricky issue is very understandble. But this is only a phase, and if holywood people are intelligent and sensitive (and I believe part of them are) then they will understand the truth later in their life. Are you sure you watched it all? The video is 1 hour and 9 minutes long. It's been 29 minutes since I posted it. The truth hurts, my brother. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 10 (edited) 1 hour ago, kenway said: Are you sure you watched it all? The video is 1 hour and 9 minutes long. It's been 29 minutes since I posted it. The truth hurts, my brother. I started, hoped to a serious video but 5 seconds barely passed and a stupid girl say "they have to dieee" and then I realized it gonna be another childish propagandist video. But I am not loosing hope, and I will watch anyway. Edited January 10 by Nivsch 🌻 Thinking independently about the spiral stages themselves is important for going through them in an organic, efficient way. If you stick to an external idea about how a stage should be you lose touch with its real self customized process trying to happen inside you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 10 On 1/8/2024 at 5:37 PM, Karmadhi said: If your child was put in a cage and trialed at a military court for throwing rocks at a soldier and random soldiers came as they pleased by breaking the door searching without a warrant you would feel oppressed. Also forgot countless checkpoints just to move around your country and not being hit by snipers without warning. Saying there is no oppression of Palestinians when there have been countless reports from many international organizations is pure delusion. Talk with some Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza about their daily life and you will see for yourself. Easy to say there is no oppression from your comfortable first world country in Israel or wherever you live without a worry in the world. I didn't say there isn't any oppression. But if you want to control the oppression, you need to first establish law and order, by force. Or both sides must be willing to back off without the use of force. And be happy with the land they have at the moment. This is extremely hard to come by, if you appreciate the ground reality of it. The Houthi terrorists have already started launching rockets at container, gas tanker ships in the red sea because of what Israel is doing. I guess even that is justified to you because some people are oppressed. Thank Goodness the US navy exists to impose peace in international waters. Without the US navy projecting it's force in the international waters we would all bend to the whims of the terrorist. At the moment most ships have rerouted via cape town instead of the Red sea because it's not worth getting bombed. And be prepared to pay significantly more for oil. Even that should be okay. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 10 (edited) 4 hours ago, Nivsch said: A decades long trauma. Now the patience is over and the pressure cooker overflowed. You guys clearly understand the concept of being pushed to the limit of exploding after years and decades of trauma but then can't seem to apply this same concept to the Palestinians or for what Hamas did on October 7th which yes - was horrible. 9 hours ago, jaylimix said: Truly oppressed people will not have free reign to build rockets and launchers, do not have free reign to build terror tunnels, it's all BS propaganda. Were women truly oppressed under patriarchy - was the feminist movement including the suffragettes in England who vandalised buildings and committed arson justified in fighting for women's right to vote? The level of resistance will be in line with the level of oppression. When describing situations it doesn't have to be the most absolute use of a word to apply as people can be partially metaphorical to make the point. Like when people refer to Gaza as a open air prison - it isn't true in its most literal sense but partially true in the sense that freedom of movement and restrictions exist for Gaza. If we're talking international law then definitions require more precision to be used and applied (genocide, ethnic cleansing for example). Otherwise, certain words are used as analogous to make a point. A revolt or resistance doesn't have to exclusively be only to the most extreme absolute versions of oppression and it doesn't deny the fact that some form of oppression is occurring that needs resisting to. Ethnic cleansing/displacement is still happening and has been for decades - they aren't supposed to resist that? When people are denied a state their denied a certain type of more 'civilised' and accepted means of protection/deterrence - when a group of people don't have a military, navy, air force, intelligence agencies or the backing of a global superpower they need to resort to guerrilla warfare and other unsavoury uncivilised tactics like suicide or terrorist attacks - which they are then gaslighted as savages for and I get it, it is savage - but it doesn't detract from their cause being a just one of equal human rights, self determination and dignity even though they go about it in undignified unjust ways of which they have been left with little choice. Edited January 10 by zazen Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 10 (edited) I posted this in the wrong thread previously. Do you see how a detached heroic version of masculinity leads to these kinds of conclusions? If femininity in positions of leadership is rejected inside and out, then a harsh divisive masculine conclusion is what people use. I understand why, I mean feminism has made people vilify femininity in positions of power or leadership. The problem is people don't realise that also means they vilify or detach from the decision-making feminine part of themselves. The part that values life above all things, and doesn't want to cause suffering. The part that would die rather than hurt a kid as a demonstratable example. So if you want to alter this course of the world, stop vilifying femininity in decision making. Again I understand why it happened, but its no solution if we want to reduce suffering. Edited January 10 by BlueOak Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 10 (edited) @zazen 3 hours ago, zazen said: You guys clearly understand the concept of being pushed to the limit of exploding after years and decades of trauma but then can't seem to apply this same concept to the Palestinians or for what Hamas did on October 7th which yes - was horrible. Were women truly oppressed under patriarchy - was the feminist movement including the suffragettes in England who vandalised buildings and committed arson justified in fighting for women's right to vote? The level of resistance will be in line with the level of oppression. When describing situations it doesn't have to be the most absolute use of a word to apply as people can be partially metaphorical to make the point. Like when people refer to Gaza as a open air prison - it isn't true in its most literal sense but partially true in the sense that freedom of movement and restrictions exist for Gaza. If we're talking international law then definitions require more precision to be used and applied (genocide, ethnic cleansing for example). Otherwise, certain words are used as analogous to make a point. A revolt or resistance doesn't have to exclusively be only to the most extreme absolute versions of oppression and it doesn't deny the fact that some form of oppression is occurring that needs resisting to. Ethnic cleansing/displacement is still happening and has been for decades - they aren't supposed to resist that? When people are denied a state their denied a certain type of more 'civilised' and accepted means of protection/deterrence - when a group of people don't have a military, navy, air force, intelligence agencies or the backing of a global superpower they need to resort to guerrilla warfare and other unsavoury uncivilised tactics like suicide or terrorist attacks - which they are then gaslighted as savages for and I get it, it is savage - but it doesn't detract from their cause being a just one of equal human rights, self determination and dignity even though they go about it in undignified unjust ways of which they have been left with little choice. True, most western cultures and westernized countries that have secularized and got atheism, with some excesses of egalitarianism, feminism, and multiculturalism, mixed with Neoliberalism and capitalism, have greatly increased divorce rates, decline in birthrates, moral degeneration, lack of human decency, and more dysfunctional family units. Even China and Russia suffered much more in this aspect, as Russia was the first country to secularize, and make abortions legal, and now they're suffering from not having enough replacement numbers and having declines in birthrates. Edited January 10 by Danioover9000 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 10 @kenway 5 hours ago, kenway said: Are you sure you watched it all? The video is 1 hour and 9 minutes long. It's been 29 minutes since I posted it. The truth hurts, my brother. Guaranteed he hasn't.😂 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 10 (edited) On 08/01/2024 at 4:56 PM, Danioover9000 said: @Leo Gura, @Carl-Richard, @Space and other mods, and also users here, your opinions on this video? IMO, I thought about this, but I consider it probably a better USA strategy, since they're allies with Israel, why don't they get directly involved in this conflict? Why don't Biden send some USA military units and establish a base near Gaza/West Bank, to both signal officially a coalition between them and Israel, but in secret a military presence in Gaza/West Bank would force IDF to limit their bombing attacks on buildings? I think the 'prime directive' here from USA should have been put aside and they should have been more involved militarily, at least to both check and control IDF aggression, but also to help preserve social infrastructure for Palestine? Honestly I don't really pay attention to current affairs and politics. Not that you or anyone else shouldn't, but I choose to focus on other things. So I don't have anything interesting to say about this video or the war in general. Too much to do, not enough time. Edited January 10 by Space Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 10 (edited) 8 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said: The Houthi terrorists have already started launching rockets at container, gas tanker ships in the red sea because of what Israel is doing. I guess even that is justified to you because some people are oppressed. Thank Goodness the US navy exists to impose peace in international waters. You need to understand that what is a "terrorist" is relative. To you Houthis are terrorists and USA is helping against terrorism. To others USA and Israel are terrorists and the Houthis are helping against terrorism. As a fan of Leo's work (since you are on this forum) , I am sure you can comprehend this. Edited January 10 by Karmadhi Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 10 (edited) @zazen Both sides act from an accumulated trauma yes, but only the stage red + pre existing unhealthy violent tendencies side will translate it into ISIS. Edited January 10 by Nivsch 🌻 Thinking independently about the spiral stages themselves is important for going through them in an organic, efficient way. If you stick to an external idea about how a stage should be you lose touch with its real self customized process trying to happen inside you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 10 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Nivsch said: Both sides act from an accumulated trauma yes, but only the stage red with pre existing unhealthy violent tendencies side will translate it into ISIS. Stage Blue is also capable of great evil also. Genocide is pinnacle stage blue. And unfortunately Israel government has tons of Stage Blue people in it like Ben Gavir with company. Stage Orange is also easily capable of war crimes, maybe not downright genocide but still atrocities. The rest of Israel government is stage orange probably. And here we are. A dominating green government in Israel would help the situation a ton. I am sure there are green citizens in Israel that can go in office. Edited January 10 by Karmadhi Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 10 (edited) Israel as a whole is Blue-Orange-Green similar to US. The current government though is the most extreme since Israel established and is very blue and also unhealthy. But there is no genocide at all, and almost nobody there seriously supports "genocide". Edited January 10 by Nivsch 🌻 Thinking independently about the spiral stages themselves is important for going through them in an organic, efficient way. If you stick to an external idea about how a stage should be you lose touch with its real self customized process trying to happen inside you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 10 6 minutes ago, Nivsch said: Israel is Blue-Orange-Green similar to US. The current government though is the most extreme since Israel established and is very blue and also unhealthy. But there is no genocide at all, and almost nobody there seriously supports "genocide". In the other hand the palestinian leadership support this on Israel in high percentage I believe Ben Gvir: War an opportunity to encourage migration from Gaza | The Times of Israel Israeli Politician Wants Gaza Bombed Like Dresden in WWII - The New American- The guy with glasses, sent a video here where he was recorded in tv saying it. Who is Ayelet Shaked, Israel’s new justice minister? | The Times of Israel Some of Israeli politicans. Now tell me what should I make of this? I have never heard people in the West use this kind of language ever. Maybe Israel has some green people but majority are not. Otherwise these statements would not fly. Green people would never allow such politicans to be elected and to say such stuff. They loose their shit about way way softer statements. This is overkill for them. When I see 24.000 Palestinians, mostly childreen and women dead, then i see such statements from Israeli officials. You expect me to like them? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 10 11 minutes ago, Nivsch said: But there is no genocide at all ICJ hearing begins tomorrow. What's going to be the Israeli strategy for defense in your opinion? I believe Israel is being defended by British lawyer Malcolm Shaw, who has considerable experience within human rights law. What do you think he should be focussing on? Do you think he'll do a good job? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 10 (edited) @Karmadhi The 1/2 orange 1/2 green people here are ~40% if to judge by the parties relative power and don't have the majority. That is the problem here. If you aren't the majority you can be completely out of the government. Edited January 10 by Nivsch 🌻 Thinking independently about the spiral stages themselves is important for going through them in an organic, efficient way. If you stick to an external idea about how a stage should be you lose touch with its real self customized process trying to happen inside you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 10 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Nivsch said: The 1/2 orange 1/2 green people here are ~40% and don't have the majority. Thats the problem here. If you arent the majority you can be completely out of the government. There is 1 thing that disturbs me. If Israeli people support the murder of Palestinian civilians in Gaza because "they attacked and killed us", then by that same logic, it is acceptable for people in Gaza to support Hamas murder of Israeli civilians because "they took our land, kicked us out and killed us". Fundamentally Israelis, many of them see that people in Gaza support Hamas and therefore in their mind it is ok for their civilians to be killed. But the same logic can also be applied to Palestinians. Since most Israelis support Zionism and their government under Benjamin, is it acceptable for them for civilians to be killed too? So where does this end? Edited January 10 by Karmadhi Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 10 (edited) @Karmadhi Israelis can say things from an extreme rage but in their default mind state of 95-99% of Israelis they (my feeling from 36 years here) will never support a murder of civilians. But within the culture of the palestinians the whole values and grasp of what is a human and what is humanity the picture is drastically different. Edited January 10 by Nivsch 🌻 Thinking independently about the spiral stages themselves is important for going through them in an organic, efficient way. If you stick to an external idea about how a stage should be you lose touch with its real self customized process trying to happen inside you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 10 @Karmadhi 7 minutes ago, Karmadhi said: There is 1 thing that disturbs me. If Israeli people support the murder of Palestinian civilians in Gaza because "they attacked and killed us", then by that same logic, it is acceptable for people in Gaza to support Hamas murder of Israeli civilians because "they took our land, kicked us out and killed us". Fundamentally Israelis, many of them see that people in Gaza support Hamas and therefore in their mind it is ok for their civilians to be killed. But the same logic can also be applied to Palestinians. Since most Israelis support Zionism and their government under Benjamin, is it acceptable for them for civilians to be killed too? So where does this end? From @Nivsch ultimate logic and conclusion, when both sides terminate each other, just not my side please. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 10 @kenway 13 minutes ago, kenway said: ICJ hearing begins tomorrow. What's going to be the Israeli strategy for defense in your opinion? I believe Israel is being defended by British lawyer Malcolm Shaw, who has considerable experience within human rights law. What do you think he should be focussing on? Do you think he'll do a good job? What time will the hearing air? Will you be eating some popcorn? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 10 Israel is definitely Spiral Dynamics stage red and blue mostly, with some orange and tiny green, not freaking blue-orange-green, that's not how colour theory works. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
